A trip back in time to think about the dancing shadows in the tent during Mirri Maz Duur's ritual.

[King Edd of House Tollet]

A doubt I always had;

 

The spell only kills Rhaego because of Dany entering the tent or he would have died anyway?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Sorry, I  wasn't intending to imply you were. But I do feel that those who do deny it are fooling themselves. But luckily they are few and far between. Most just didn't realise when reading it and so missed it entirely. 

I think we can say that we mustn't trust MMD and what she says or take her assertions as accurate. As Darksister1001 mentioned above (thank you by the way for liking my post  ) All too often people take what she says as absolute.  It is something I've noticed a lot on the forums. I think because she is sort of introduced to us as neutral. But when we examine her and her actions and motives. It turns out that she is far from it. Right off the bat she is not Dany's friend, she just hides it well.

In her performance in the tent she takes great care to create a certain atmosphere, and we know she is using a chemical means to produce her desired reaction in her audience. That in itself says that she is deceiving them. As I have said before I think that everything she has said must be taken with a pinch of salt. I think that she is a bullshitter.

We know that you do not need life to pay for death. Loads of people are resurrected without sacrificing so much as a rat.  Not only Beric, and in turn Cat, but every damn Wight we meet north of the wall. Yes they die, but no extra death is required to bring them back. And Ungregor. whilst we know Qyburn is doing unspeakable things in that dungeon. We don't discover he has actually had to sacrifice someone in order to raise Gregor. So for certain she is full of shit on that account. Mind once I find out someone has told a fib, it kind of tend to doubt everything the tell me there after. 

She asks when will he be as he was, and we know he can never now be as he was. He's ash! But the prophesy seems to be unravelling despite that fact. So what can happen once all the pieces are in place? What alternative is there to the theory MMD believes they will be reunited in death? I'm not actually 100% sold on that one btw. Just consider it an option. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

A doubt I always had;

 

The spell only kills Rhaego because of Dany entering the tent or he would have died anyway?

I think the same, No other Targ Dragon hybrid type baby we know of in the series (and there have been several) survived childbirth. Why should Rhaego have been any different?

[DarkSister1001]

11 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think the same, No other Targ Dragon hybrid type baby we know of in the series (and there have been several) survived childbirth. Why should Rhaego have been any different?

Perhaps they inbred not only to keep the line pure but to keep their line going at all.  If they're not exactly the same as the other humans if would be difficult to birth a hybrid, as you say.  The people of Ib had the same issue when they tried to mate with other races.  For Ib it's specifically mentioned that it's bc they're not human so I don't see why the same logic can't be applied to the Targs. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Danaerys isn't infertile, she has a miscarriage at the end of ADWD. 

Inorder to conjure the dead to appear, you kind of have to believe in ghosts, and spirits. Which comes hand in hand with afterlives and gods neither of which I think are true here or in ASOIAF. 

The shadows themselves I think must either be hallucinations (though given Jorah and Dany see them I doubt it, as with hallucinogenics no two people tend to see the same thing.) or Shadow binding of some description. 

As to what they represent, I'm not entirely certain, burning man, great wolf and others, we are told that not all are shaped as humans, so that means that some are. Basically I'm uncertain about them. But I do know that MMD is not to be believed and the chances are that much of what she said was bollocks. Here's a recent thread on the subject in which I explored ideas on this topic a bit more. 

 

I think there is an afterlife, in the world of the books - at least for some people (the personality of a warg continues to exist in the animal he's bonded with, the personalities of the children of the forest continue to exist in the weirwood trees).  Beric and Cat must have continued to in some spiritual form to be brought back into life.

My own view is that shadow-binding does involve summoning and binding the spirits of the dead to do one's bidding.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Interesting ideas SeanF. As always. 

I guess I am a bit clouded by my own upbringing in regards to after lives and religion. I mean you make excellent points about the warging, and the weirwoods. 

It's hard for me to separate the idea of life after death and religion, as after all inorder to have the concept of an afterlife we have to have spirits, and if we have spirits there must be a continuation of sorts after death. And all that seems rather too tied to the concept of gods to me. 

I'll try to see the idea of them being spirits less as evidence of gods and more as similar to the way the Warg passes into her wolf after death. Or as you say the Children in the trees. 

Still not convinced the shadows are the dead mind, as I said in the linked thread. Why would MMD summon a dead Stark? it seems to me passing strange for her to do such a thing. 

[DarkSister1001]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there is an afterlife, in the world of the books - at least for some people (the personality of a warg continues to exist in the animal he's bonded with, the personalities of the children of the forest continue to exist in the weirwood trees).  Beric and Cat must have continued to in some spiritual form to be brought back into life.

My own view is that shadow-binding does involve summoning and binding the spirits of the dead to do one's bidding.

 

Very interesting.  It could be why BR tells Bran not to try to call Ned back.  It's not that it can't be done, it's that he wouldn't like the result. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Thank YOU!  I've always disliked that being the law of the land when we see Thoros bring Beric back without death. 

To the OP, the shadows nagged at me too.  They could have been any other tokens but to be a wolf and a man wreathed in fire is peculiar.  I even asked about it a few weeks ago on Small Questions.  Thank you made it a topic bc I think it's worth discussing.

Obviously the wolf is a Stark...but which one?  Does it being a shadow mean that it must be a dead Stark?  Ned, Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard are all dead.  Benjen is missing.  One was her "enemy", one her sister-in-law and a partial cause of the rebellion that lead to the downfall of her House, two killed by her father.  Or is it just a manifestation of her fear of the usurpers dogs caused by the fear powder? 

The man wreathed in fire has been more difficult for me.  Is it her dad that liked to burn people?  Her dead brothers?  Her nephew (f)Aegon or Jon?

Sorry that I have more questions than answers. 

Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

[DarkSister1001]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

I know we touched on this briefly in Small Questions, but I need more discussion to better understand it. 

[hiemal]

46 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think the same, No other Targ Dragon hybrid type baby we know of in the series (and there have been several) survived childbirth. Why should Rhaego have been any different?

I've been pondering this one and while I don't necessarily disagree I think it is also possible the MMD's spell plays with time in such a way that Rhaego, who had preumably been shifting happily in the womb like a normal child was "now" a stillborn monstrosity that had been dead for a long time.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I know we touched on this briefly in Small Questions, but I need more discussion to better understand it. 

Who are the Spirits in the Tent during MMD's ritual?

The Shadows in the Tent with Mirri Maz Dur

[tf13]

I always imagined that the man wreathed in flames was Stannis, taking the fiery heart as his sigi.

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, tf13 said:

I always imagined that the man wreathed in flames was Stannis, taking the fiery heart as his sigi.

If Stannis is the man wreathed in flames, who is the wolf he's wrestling with? 

[DarkSister1001]

56 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Who are the Spirits in the Tent during MMD's ritual?

The Shadows in the Tent with Mirri Maz Dur

Bless you for this.  Perhaps there should be a SSLM. 

[DarkSister1001]

Quote

 

Here's a really great post about it. 

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Thank YOU!  I've always disliked that being the law of the land when we see Thoros bring Beric back without death. 

To the OP, the shadows nagged at me too.  They could have been any other tokens but to be a wolf and a man wreathed in fire is peculiar.  I even asked about it a few weeks ago on Small Questions.  Thank you made it a topic bc I think it's worth discussing.

Obviously the wolf is a Stark...but which one?  Does it being a shadow mean that it must be a dead Stark?  Ned, Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard are all dead.  Benjen is missing.  One was her "enemy", one her sister-in-law and a partial cause of the rebellion that lead to the downfall of her House, two killed by her father.  Or is it just a manifestation of her fear of the usurpers dogs caused by the fear powder? 

The man wreathed in fire has been more difficult for me.  Is it her dad that liked to burn people?  Her dead brothers?  Her nephew (f)Aegon or Jon?

Sorry that I have more questions than answers. 

Hi, I got quite busy yesterday so only looking back over this thread now, thanks for commenting. 

Its good to see an interest in the dancing shadows and that the Wolf is a Stark connection. Me thinking it must be a dead Stark(or that the shadows are spirits of the dead) is just me going by the text, and that while MMD definitely is a scheming manipulator with her own agendas who could easily be lying at times, I think she is also a very powerful maege who knows her stuff so in that particular point, I'm inclined to believe her that the dead were dancing in that tent. She states it more than once and I see absolutely no reason for her to lie about that but information. 

Its interesting you mention the other dead Starks, and it's possible the Wolf is a manifestation of one of them, or all of them? However even in death I don't think Ned would choose to come through to do that and I just never saw it being Lyanna although of course we can't be sure. Which just left Brandon and Rickard who I could definitely see coming through for a dance at the bidding of MMD's spellsong.

As to the fear powder, if it's the same powder Mel has, which I believe it is, it is a smoke powder and no more which upon being thrown on the brazier had an effect on the smoke which instilled fear in those inside the tent causing them to flee. I'm not sure if it had other purpose but it seems the shadows are not the cause of this powder and are something more sinister that appears after the spellsong has awoken powers allowing them to come through to the tent.

The man wreathed in flames I suppose could be many a man wronged and burned by Aerys, or a Targ themselves but I thought that less likely, which always led my mind to believe that the flaming man was Rickard along with his wild wolf son. Or the other option was Rhaego being the flaming man as per Dany's dream. 

GRRM really does not give much away because apparently all these years later he has never given it away in an interview(that I can find anyway lol).

Maybe he is happy for us to make our own minds up how we see fit and leave it a mystery?

[Macgregor of the North]

14 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Sorry, I  wasn't intending to imply you were. But I do feel that those who do deny it are fooling themselves. But luckily they are few and far between. Most just didn't realise when reading it and so missed it entirely. 

I think we can say that we mustn't trust MMD and what she says or take her assertions as accurate. As Darksister1001 mentioned above (thank you by the way for liking my post  ) All too often people take what she says as absolute.  It is something I've noticed a lot on the forums. I think because she is sort of introduced to us as neutral. But when we examine her and her actions and motives. It turns out that she is far from it. Right off the bat she is not Dany's friend, she just hides it well.

In her performance in the tent she takes great care to create a certain atmosphere, and we know she is using a chemical means to produce her desired reaction in her audience. That in itself says that she is deceiving them. As I have said before I think that everything she has said must be taken with a pinch of salt. I think that she is a bullshitter.

We know that you do not need life to pay for death. Loads of people are resurrected without sacrificing so much as a rat.  Not only Beric, and in turn Cat, but every damn Wight we meet north of the wall. Yes they die, but no extra death is required to bring them back. And Ungregor. whilst we know Qyburn is doing unspeakable things in that dungeon. We don't discover he has actually had to sacrifice someone in order to raise Gregor. So for certain she is full of shit on that account. Mind once I find out someone has told a fib, it kind of tend to doubt everything the tell me there after. 

She asks when will he be as he was, and we know he can never now be as he was. He's ash! But the prophesy seems to be unravelling despite that fact. So what can happen once all the pieces are in place? What alternative is there to the theory MMD believes they will be reunited in death? I'm not actually 100% sold on that one btw. Just consider it an option. 

Sorry about wait, it's cool no worries, I caught it while reading ADWD and I pondered it like everybody but i was just checking it had been 100% confirmed. Anyways it's not of massive relevance here.

I get what your saying about MMD I really do but I genuinely believe that even though she's scheming and manipulating with an agenda etc she is very knowledgable and we must not take everything GRRM has written from her mouth as BS. I think having this view can blind us from picking up on great info. 

There are many characters in the books who lie etc but speak truths also. 

As to the theory MMD said they will only be reunited in death. This theory can not be as what MMD meant and what Dany meant was when Drogo was a vegetable, when would he ever go back to being how he was, like a warrior riding his horse etc, a proper man. If wasn't meant when will they be reunited at all. While that is a sweet thought it's just not what was implied or meant. 

So MMD basically means(at time of asking), that for Drogo to return from vegetable state to the warrior he was , talking , shouting , laughing etc, there is more chance of the sun setting blah blah etc etc and of Dany bearing a living child. All she is saying is it's impossible that Drogo will ever be the same, not when Drogo and Dany will be reunited. Because at that time they are already together. It's just Drogo is not all there sadly.

I can maybe see it from an angle that MMD means he will be as he was in the afterlife and the only time Dany would ever know that is if she dies birthing a child and sees him there. But that's getting in to ghosts and afterlifes again, are you willing to believe lol? 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Stannis is the man wreathed in flames, who is the wolf he's wrestling with? 

Why do you always think the shadows are wrestling with one another? 

[Macgregor of the North]

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think there is an afterlife, in the world of the books - at least for some people (the personality of a warg continues to exist in the animal he's bonded with, the personalities of the children of the forest continue to exist in the weirwood trees).  Beric and Cat must have continued to in some spiritual form to be brought back into life.

My own view is that shadow-binding does involve summoning and binding the spirits of the dead to do one's bidding.

 

There are a few in the books who agree on ghosts, afterlifes, souls and spirits. Qyburn believed, and Marwyn agreed with Qyburns views, the same Marwyn who trained MMD, and who is on the way to see Dany IIRC.

[Macgregor of the North]

14 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Interesting ideas SeanF. As always. 

I guess I am a bit clouded by my own upbringing in regards to after lives and religion. I mean you make excellent points about the warging, and the weirwoods. 

It's hard for me to separate the idea of life after death and religion, as after all inorder to have the concept of an afterlife we have to have spirits, and if we have spirits there must be a continuation of sorts after death. And all that seems rather too tied to the concept of gods to me. 

I'll try to see the idea of them being spirits less as evidence of gods and more as similar to the way the Warg passes into her wolf after death. Or as you say the Children in the trees. 

Still not convinced the shadows are the dead mind, as I said in the linked thread. Why would MMD summon a dead Stark? it seems to me passing strange for her to do such a thing. 

Sorry to bump this part of the thread. I do not think MMD actually summoned them in particular. She just awoke powers with her spellsong that allows the dead to come through. 

What I think happened was vengeful spirits who had grievance with Dany's father/line came through but not at MMD's bidding, but because they hold a grudge. 

Sounds spooky and I'm not a believer in real life either btw, I've never had an experience so to me it's not real but in this book it's what I think is a good chance has happened.