The Expanse #2: Caliban's Thread - [spoilers for book only up to latest tv show episode]

[Corvinus85]

6 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

23:24: The Roci has hard coffee cups (instead of bulbs). The UN-trained captain Holden uses such a cup before battle. He lets it go in zero G. Again, this is just an insult to the viewer, and an insult to the characters, and an insult to the fictional MCNR engineers who designed the ship. The problems with coffee drinking in space are interesting and could be handled well, with just as much humour or drama. Terrible.

You can clearly see the cup having a cap on it. So I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Corvinus85]

34 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

And I still am unconvinced about the interior ship designs. There has not been a single visual clue that down is away from accelaration. All the interiors look like (naval) ships, with long walkways. Instead, things should be stacked. Doors should lead up and down, not left and right.

There was that shot of Amos working in the Roci's open airlock to get that safe open, and by the looks of the closed door behind him, it was clear that the decks are stacked perpendicularly with the main thrust vector.

[Happy Ent]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

There was that shot of Amos working in the Roci's open airlock to get that safe open, and by the looks of the closed door behind him, it was clear that the decks are stacked perpendicularly with the main thrust vector.

Yes, that was correct and a good shot. 

I am talking about the interior ship design: command bridges, the Belter ship’s crew holding area, the Donnager from last season, the scene where Bobbie confronts her captain. There are no smoking guns, but there also clearly is no conscious attempts from the set designers to tell us visually that forward is up, or that horizontal space is expensive. I want more stacking, I want more ladders, I want doors down and up, rather than left and right.

I admit it’s inconclusive, but all the shots show me designs that remind me of the Enterprise.

[Happy Ent]

32 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

You can clearly see the cup having a cap on it. So I don't see what the problem is.

The cup would zoom about the interior of the cabin like a sledgehammer as soon as you go into battle. It would be randomly accelerated with a couple of G in various directions relative to the ship. It would smash everything, including people’s faces. It’s a deadly hazard. Every Belter and every UN soldier would immediately recognise it as that. Nobody would want something like that on their ship. Hell, I panicked when I saw the cup, and I’ve never been to space. Imagine how Naomi ought to react. Or Holden. Only Miller could have an excuse, so you could have written a scene where Miller wants to bring his favourite coffee mug and receives a lecture on space (for the benefit of the viewers.)

(Everything not individually bolted down would behave like that. Coffee machines, plates, the stupid figurines of the Canterbury captain in S1E1, …)

In space, you use soft bulbs from which you suck the fluid. And everything else you need for your daily life (plates, forks, etc.) has to be individually unscrewed from the frames that hold it. Otherwise each of these things would be (at bets) broken and (worse) break something else as soon as you manoeuvre. Again: this kind of set design (with lots of fastening and unfastening) would be cheap to build, very cool, and give a constant reminder of theme while the actors have their conversations to save money.

Many of the small trivialities of real life (stacking plates in a kitchen cupboard) become interesting challenges in space. Use that. The books do.

[Happy Ent]

(stupid interface)

[Happy Ent]

s2e4

18:40– (Roci pilot runs simulations.) Roci is attached belly-down to Tycho. Spin gravity should be sideways. Interior shots clearly show that the ship is not stacked. And gravity is pointing where? Nothing makes sense here. Then, in the simulation, “3G burn, PDCs” – yet the Epstein is off.

I think it’s quite clear that the TV show simply does not care about any of this.

[Astromech]

12 hours ago, Risto said:

This is something that intrigued me... It felt like someone inserted it because they didn't know where to put it. I have no idea what is the Epstein story... Damn, I need to read those books  

Yes, it should have been included earlier in the series if at all. It felt they shoehorned it in.  I don't share Karaddin's feeling of it fitting perfectly in the episode at all. As much as I enjoyed the scenes, they really just chopped up the flow of the episode for me.

[Spockydog]

9 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm less annoyed by the issues HE keeps bringing up.  Mostly because I'm ignorant to a lot of the hard science, but also because I want to see all of these things in the same frame...

Me too. Some of those Ganymede shots made me think of the book covers.

 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

Yes, it should have been included earlier in the series if at all. It felt they shoehorned it in.  I don't share Karaddin's feeling of it fitting perfectly in the episode at all. As much as I enjoyed the scenes, they really just chopped up the flow of the episode for me.

I thought it was okay mainly because this was essentially a transition episode between the two books, so it wasn't a critical episode that was going to suffer in pacing due to the Epstein story.

[karaddin]

10 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think the only problem I had with the insertion of Epstein's story here is the same issue I have across the show - high G doesn't look painful enough.  I hate the seats they use in the Roci, they are too flimsy and the actors move around too much in them.  Plus, no one ever looks truly pained, just mildly uncomfortable or constipated.  With everyone looking this way, it seems a directorial choice rather than poor acting, but it's annoying.  Same with the coffee cups.  It's such a stupid mistake.  Also annoyed by clear tablets.  

I'm less annoyed by the issues HE keeps bringing up.  Mostly because I'm ignorant to a lot of the hard science, but also because I want to see all of these things in the same frame so I just accept that things in frame are further than they appear.  

Bolded - I've shared this one at times, but Epstein was actually the exception for me. I took it as he was initially startled and then the gravity was too great for his face muscles to change without more effort than he was putting into changing his face. It may not be accurate, but I don't care if its something they're consciously going for.

I'm not at all annoyed by the stuff HE is bringing up because most of what he's asking for might cater to the 1% of people that want it that way, but it would bore 90% of the audience and we wouldn't have a show. The battle at Tycho station alone would have been longer than an episode if it was actually done realistically. The show is an adaptation that is attempting to capture the essence of the situations described in the book and for the most part its succeeding. There are some things I might think could be done without alienating an audience, like having things more clearly bolted down, but it doesnt ruin the show for me. I can't imagine being able to enjoy anything if I treated it like that.

4 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

I think it’s quite clear that the TV show simply does not care about any of this.

You can disagree with their choices all you want, its your opinion and you're entitled to it, but to claim they're making no effort and don't even care is just fucking daft. They care about making a good show, that tells the story and captures an audience. Some of your complaints I'm not even sure you have the details of the show correctly, you asked for mega zooming shots which is exactly what we've gotten for some of the things trying to show the distance involved - are you missing that the zooming effect is too subtle and think its actually meant to be naked eye or something?

The show is putting more effort into being accurate than anything else I've ever seen, to constantly shit on it to the point of claiming they don't even care is missing all the ways they show they do and is the sort of attitude that leads to shows not even trying - because they get reamed more for trying, but compromising for entertainment than they do for not even trying.

There was a moment in the 6th episode that I've seen called out as a nice little subtle piece of realism that I'm wondering if you'll notice - I feel like I've seen it before, but maybe that wasn't in this show.

[DaveSumm]

I'm not really sure how you'd portray the G's accurately. The most noticeable thing would be how your face is stretched out, and unless they CG that every single time someone's in a high burn, it's not gonna work.

Generally speaking I share the praise for this season, it's been excellent. My only issue is that they should really have ended S1 with the previous episode, they've obviously introduced Bobby early so they don't have too much work to do here and in the next episode, but she's basically been standing around waiting for this final scene. I loved the Ganymede zoom in though, gutted I'm only watching it in 720p.

[boojam]

21 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

I think the Epstein story is in opening chapter of book 1, or so. It’s the fundamental technological conceit of the universe: Near-perfect energy generation works, so we can build ships that accelerate for weeks and weeks (without having to carry a fuel source of the size of Mars). On the other hand, automation does not work. It’s a universe where Elon Musk found out how to build small suns and put them into a shielded box, but lost all interest in Tesla. It makes for great SF. 

The  Epstein Drive is a bit of a fix up. Can't remember if it is even mentioned in season 1. One notices that all the ship rocket propulsion systems seem to have as much fuel as Hop-along Cassidy had pistol bullets in old B Westerns. In the books there is a hand weaving argument , from the authors, about how Epstein Drive increases engine efficiency so much it can be used almost continuously , a bow to explaining on board 'thrust gravity'. It's a 'super science' extrapolation for which there is no present engineering physics, and more than a little poetic license. Well , at least,    Abraham and Franck are aware of the need. If this was the Z movies of the 1950s it would not have been explained in The Queen of Outer Space ! 

One notices how similar the 'Epstein' ship is too Heinlein's Torch Ships.

[boojam]

20 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

 I. Get a sense of vacuum. The Expanse books get this superbly right. Space is huge, and all man-made objects are tiny tin cans strapped to small suns zooming about in a deadly environment. Make one mistake, and you’re dead. Coffee cup? You’re dead. Flimsy chair? You’re dead. Forgot to check your buddy’s straps or valves? You’re both dead. It is constant stress. This would be cheap to do and give really great atmosphere. 

 

Speaking of vacuum. Sigh! I guess the lesson that Kubrick taught about how artful the portrayal of no-sound-in-a-vacuum can be just does not register with makers of visual media.

Some have .  If one pays attention the film Gravity was clever about this, when the POV was that of the astronaut one heard sound conducted  through the suit, other wise silence, except for radio com.

This technique was used in Apollo 13 , but edited in such a way that one has to know what was being implied so seems awkward there.

 

 

[Arkash]

Sunshine was kinda good when it came to no-sound in a vacuum as well, but yeah, I've been tickled by that in The Expanse, but it's one of the very few things that bugged me in that show ! 

[Happy Ent]

11 hours ago, karaddin said:

There was a moment in the 6th episode that I've seen called out as a nice little subtle piece of realism that I'm wondering if you'll notice - I feel like I've seen it before, but maybe that wasn't in this show.

Looking forward to that! 

The stuff the show gets right (such as the shot of spin gravity on Tycho) I am very enthusiastic about.

[Dr. Pepper]

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I'm not really sure how you'd portray the G's accurately. The most noticeable thing would be how your face is stretched out, and unless they CG that every single time someone's in a high burn, it's not gonna work.

 

I assumed just something low-tech like fans or blowers.  Though I'd mostly go with simply looking pained or even just not squirming around like it's nothing.  

[Corvinus85]

I understand Happy Ent's frustration, but as long as the story and the characters continue to be solid, and follow the books as closely as possible, I'm not complaining, otherwise I will end up hating this show as much as Game of Thrones. I've long come to accept in shows like GoT, that characters don't need helmets when they fight, or that armour is like paper, unless you have plot armour. So I'll enjoy whatever good tidbits of science The Expanse gives me and ignore the rest.

[boojam]

56 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Looking forward to that! 

The stuff the show gets right (such as the shot of spin gravity on Tycho) I am very enthusiastic about.

I like the pouring of liquids in zero g, never seen that in a visual drama before.

The show runners also noted that they were aware that low g on , say Ceres, does not look right, a budget constraint.

They do little back ground things about low g that frankly I had to be told what to look for.

[Sir Thursday]

I assume they didn't show the Ganymede fight because:

In the books, the fact that they have to recover the video from the suit is an important plot point. We'll probably see the battle at the point they try to extract it from the suitcam.  (They may or may not keep the bit where it initially comes out fuzzed because Bobby's suit is really old)

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

There was a moment in the 6th episode that I've seen called out as a nice little subtle piece of realism that I'm wondering if you'll notice - I feel like I've seen it before, but maybe that wasn't in this show.

what moment were you referring to?