GAME OF THRONES to end 13 episodes after the end of Season 6

[Valetudo]

8 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

That was a whole lot of expensive filming at an expensive place with expensive actors. they were going to get a lot of scenes for the money. 

Then don't film at an expensive place! They could easily have done the scenes that I proposed in a set in Ireland.

The priority should be the story and not the visual aspect. You don't choose to expend Dorne's story because you're filming at an expensive place in a foreign country if the story isn't good. It's the typical style over substance problem. 

[239JMFL34109]

4 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Then don't film at an expensive place! They could easily have done the scenes that I proposed in a set in Ireland.

The priority should be the story and not the visual aspect. You don't choose to expend Dorne's story because you're filming at an expensive place in a foreign country if the story isn't good. It's the typical style over substance problem. 

The thing is that's i why i think the storyline went nowhere. They had a cool visual, they really didn't want to waste it, and in trying to save it they F'd up. 

I am fine with jaime going to dorne but i think it should have been all from his POV. People already care about jaime so you make the audience care about dorne by understanding why he cares about what happens at dorne. You could get a lot of the riverrun like stuff in land travel to dorne by land pass that would happen to pass by the place where the TOJ stood. You have Jaime worried that something could happened to his daughter only to meet her. Then she is just fine and happy. how creepy would meeting doran from Jamie pov if you had no idea how he thought about killing his daughter. You could have even built up jaime feelings about him feeling emotional distance from these children he loves but never got to hold. Then have a nice scene of her telling jamie how while her mother ignored her for joffrey and robert was a terrible dad jamie was always there for her and etc...

[Valetudo]

1 minute ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

The thing is that's i why i think the storyline went nowhere. They had a cool visual, they really didn't want to waste it, and in trying to save it they F'd up. 

I am fine with jaime going to dorne but i think it should have been all from his POV. People already care about jaime so you make the audience care about dorne by understanding why he cares about what happens at dorne. You could get a lot of the riverrun like stuff in land travel to dorne by land pass that would happen to pass by the place where the TOJ stood. You have Jaime worried that something could happened to his daughter only to meet her. Then she is just fine and happy. how creepy would meeting doran from Jamie pov if you had no idea how he thought about killing his daughter. You could have even built up jaime feelings about him feeling emotional distance from these children he loves but never got to hold. Then have a nice scene of her telling jamie how while her mother ignored her for joffrey and robert was a terrible dad jamie was always there for her and etc...

Yes, this could have worked too, but I don't believe that it would have fit in last season.

The filming place clearly created them problems, but that's just bad planning. They certainly negotiated prices and filming time during pre-production, so if it was too expensive or the filming duration was too short, they should have said no right here instead of trying to accommodate the story in order to fit.

The only objective of the Dorne storyline last season was to create some conflict between Dorne and KL by killing Myrcella, and getting Jaime out of KL in order for Cersei's story to develop normally.

All the Jaime and Bronn scenes, Sand Snakes scenes and Myrcella and Trystane scenes where filler that didn't bring anything to the plot. So filming abroad these filler scenes was clearly a waste of time and money.

By condensing the Dorne storyline, Jaime's presence is not needed anymore. The audience already knew Ellaria and would certainly understand her asking revenge for Oberyn, a fan favorite in season 4, by killing Myrcella, the daughter of the queen that Tyrion sent to Dorne in season 2. Ellaria then just has to had Myrcella killed in one way or the other, attaining the same result as she did last season.

Jaime, could then go to Riverrun instead. Just have Cersei send him there after some argument, so when the news of her arrest reach him, he refuses to help her.

Just like that, they just resolve 2 problems, by spending less in a filler story in Dorne and bringing the riverlands storyline back to season 5, bringing it closer to the red wedding and saving precious time in season 6 to bring the endgame quicker.

This solution brings the added bonus of keeping the characterization of Jaime more coherent with his S3 and S4 storyline, by not having him still totally in love with Cersei during S5 and S6.

Just for the look of some scenes, they were obliged to completely twist the story, creating a new storyline that felt flat.

[239JMFL34109]

6 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Yes, this could have worked too, but I don't believe that it would have fit in last season.

The filming place clearly created them problems, but that's just bad planning. They certainly negotiated prices and filming time during pre-production, so if it was too expensive or the filming duration was too short, they should have said no right here instead of trying to accommodate the story in order to fit.

The only objective of the Dorne storyline last season was to create some conflict between Dorne and KL by killing Myrcella, and getting Jaime out of KL in order for Cersei's story to develop normally.

All the Jaime and Bronn scenes, Sand Snakes scenes and Myrcella and Trystane scenes where filler that didn't bring anything to the plot. So filming abroad these filler scenes was clearly a waste of time and money.

By condensing the Dorne storyline, Jaime's presence is not needed anymore. The audience already knew Ellaria and would certainly understand her asking revenge for Oberyn, a fan favorite in season 4, by killing Myrcella, the daughter of the queen that Tyrion sent to Dorne in season 2. Ellaria then just has to had Myrcella killed in one way or the other, attaining the same result as she did last season.

Jaime, could then go to Riverrun instead. Just have Cersei send him there after some argument, so when the news of her arrest reach him, he refuses to help her.

Just like that, they just resolve 2 problems, by spending less in a filler story in Dorne and bringing the riverlands storyline back to season 5, bringing it closer to the red wedding and saving precious time in season 6 to bring the endgame quicker.

This solution brings the added bonus of keeping the characterization of Jaime more coherent with his S3 and S4 storyline, by not having him still totally in love with Cersei during S5 and S6.

Just for the look of some scenes, they were obliged to completely twist the story, creating a new storyline that felt flat.

 

except it becomes something that they don't care about, to people they don't care about, and etc... also everything i have seen the auidence complains about getting their handheld but always wants it people would have forgotten about ellaria. 

 

[Valetudo]

1 minute ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

 

except it becomes something that they don't care about, to people they don't care about, and etc... also everything i have seen the auidence complains about getting their handheld but always wants it people would have forgotten about ellaria. 

 

It would literally have been two scenes in Dorne, with Ellaria, Myrcella and Doran (2 previously seen characters and 1 that had already been cited).

It would have maybe 5mn of screentime, not really enough time for people to loose interest. The first scene would have been almost the same as the one they did (Jaime wasn't present either in their version), and the second one would be the murder of Cersei's daughter, a shocking scene.

It's one thing to simplify the story to make it TV ready, but this doesn't mean that every scene needs to have a major character in it.

[239JMFL34109]

Just now, Valetudo said:

It would literally have been two scenes in Dorne, with Ellaria, Myrcella and Doran (2 previously seen characters and 1 that had already been cited).

It would have maybe 5mn of screentime, not really enough time for people to loose interest. The first scene would have been almost the same as the one they did (Jaime wasn't present either in their version), and the second one would be the murder of Cersei's daughter, a shocking scene.

It's one thing to simplify the story to make it TV ready, but this doesn't mean that every scene needs to have a major character in it.

two scene which no one would have cared about and would confused them as they still would have never remember any of the characters as they have trouble remembering how much children there were in a season when all of cersei ids showed up. people would have been confused about what that was about who it related to m was it about dany or etc...

 You had to send someone to dorne to have someone you already care about there or don't do it at all. 

[Cas Stark]

On 4/20/2016 at 8:13 PM, MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat said:

 

Throwing in a random bridge character, that's the easy way.  But a great character or plot will keep viewers interested.  That's why Dany is a fan favorite even though she's been separated from the rest of the story.  

I thought they should have left Dorne out all together.  However, I'm not opposed to them having sent Jamie, I am opposed to the stupid as fuck story they came up with, like seriously, Jamie Lannister who was recognized by strangers in the show when he still had two hands is going to sneak into Dorne and kidnap Myrcella?!  Unless the point was to show how stupid he is, in which case they succeeded brilliantly, but I don't believe that was the goal.

[Valetudo]

1 minute ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

two scene which no one would have cared about and would confused them as they still would have never remember any of the characters as they have trouble remembering how much children there were in a season when all of cersei ids showed up. people would have been confused about what that was about who it related to m was it about dany or etc...

 You had to send someone to dorne to have someone you already care about there or don't do it at all. 

This argument is pure bullshit.

Like I said, the first scene would have been exactly the same as this season. It's in episode 1, with one character last seen 2 episodes ago, talking about the biggest event of season 4. Jaime wasn't present in D&D version of the scene either by the way. Don't forget that the "previously on GoT" segment exists exactly to remember people about things they could have forgotten. Just show the scene before the Oberyn-Mountain fight to make people remember who Ellaria is, and show Myrcella Kings Landing departure. The other scene is the murder of Cersei's and Jaime's daughter, sister of the king, not really a nobody.

We have to stop taking people for fools. If they can't remember shit, then they're not watching the most appropriate show.

Just imagine the first scene as something like this:

an introduction with Cersei and Jaime having a discussion, Cersei being afraid about her daughter that is in Dorne now that Oberyn is dead, head crushed by the Mountain.

Transition to Dorne, where we see myrcella, and then see Ellaria asking Doran to kill her to avenge Oberyn.

Do you really believe that people wouldn't understand or wouldn't care? lol

next and last scene in Dorne, in one of the last episodes of the season, they just have to show the a recap of the first scene in the "previously on", and then have Ellaria, mad after Doran refusal to kill Myrcella, killing her herself, telling that it's revenge for Oberyn and that she's gonna send her to her mother the Queen Cersei piece by piece. Then transition to Cersei in prison, in order to accentuate the link between the characters.

We're not talking about totally random characters that appear out of nowhere and/or without strong connections to main ones.

I wonder how this severely limited audience survived the presentation of characters like Stannis without having a main character in the scene for example

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Valetudo said:

If getting Jaime out of KL was so important and contracting the story to finish faster too, why didn't they send him directly to the Riverlands and resolve this problem last season? The Dorne storyline could have been cut to the first scene between Ellaria and Doran and a scene where she kills Myrcella. That's all that happened in Dorne. The remaining time would have been used with Jaime in Riverrun, saving time for season 6.

Or they could have done this with a raven from Dorne telling them Myrcella was dead. No Dorne.

[Valetudo]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Or they could have done this with a raven from Dorne telling them Myrcella was dead.

Yeah, but we're talking about GoT here. They wouldn't let the death scene of an important character (Myrcella is not important per se, but is crucial in Cersei's story) pass without showing it.

[Le Cygne]

30 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

Yeah, but we're talking about GoT here. They wouldn't let the death scene of an important character (Myrcella is not important per se, but is crucial in Cersei's story) pass without showing it.

They could play up with a scene of Cersei and her body lying in state. Myrcella was a minor character.

(I agree with your points, I was just saying, get rid of Dorne altogether. Also no pointless recast of Myrcella.)

[Valetudo]

But, how would the audience, judged incapable of understanding who Ellaria and Myrcella are when seeing them and being remembered repetitively who they are, understand how and why Myrcella was killed just with a letter? /s

It's just like the future Balon death scene. It could have been announced with a raven too, but we'll see his death. The death of a guy we don't see since season 3, killed by a new character. How will they understand that too? Or will they put Theon on the bridge with them?

In these cases, I believe that a "show, don't tell" approach works best.

In my Dornish scenario, I already stripped the story to it's bare bones in order for it to be accessible, cheap and quick enough. Stripping it even more to a simple raven message would not really make it any quicker, since they would still have to explain how and why Myrcella died in order to prepare the "Dorne vs KL" confrontation. But the raven message was also a valuable option in order to condense the plot.

[239JMFL34109]

1 hour ago, Valetudo said:

Yeah, but we're talking about GoT here. They wouldn't let the death scene of an important character (Myrcella is not important per se, but is crucial in Cersei's story) pass without showing it.

Myrcella is an important character? 

2 hours ago, Valetudo said:

This argument is pure bullshit.

Like I said, the first scene would have been exactly the same as this season. It's in episode 1, with one character last seen 2 episodes ago, talking about the biggest event of season 4. Jaime wasn't present in D&D version of the scene either by the way. Don't forget that the "previously on GoT" segment exists exactly to remember people about things they could have forgotten. Just show the scene before the Oberyn-Mountain fight to make people remember who Ellaria is, and show Myrcella Kings Landing departure. The other scene is the murder of Cersei's and Jaime's daughter, sister of the king, not really a nobody.

We have to stop taking people for fools. If they can't remember shit, then they're not watching the most appropriate show.

Just imagine the first scene as something like this:

an introduction with Cersei and Jaime having a discussion, Cersei being afraid about her daughter that is in Dorne now that Oberyn is dead, head crushed by the Mountain.

Transition to Dorne, where we see myrcella, and then see Ellaria asking Doran to kill her to avenge Oberyn.

Do you really believe that people wouldn't understand or wouldn't care? lol

next and last scene in Dorne, in one of the last episodes of the season, they just have to show the a recap of the first scene in the "previously on", and then have Ellaria, mad after Doran refusal to kill Myrcella, killing her herself, telling that it's revenge for Oberyn and that she's gonna send her to her mother the Queen Cersei piece by piece. Then transition to Cersei in prison, in order to accentuate the link between the characters.

We're not talking about totally random characters that appear out of nowhere and/or without strong connections to main ones.

I wonder how this severely limited audience survived the presentation of characters like Stannis without having a main character in the scene for example

do i think people would not remember or care? yes totally. why? there was a articles from tv critics and discussions with my show only friends of "why should i care about dany?" who was her brother? and etc... a ton of people don't watch this show as closely as us. dany never do anything to get westeros had people bailing on her storyline. that is 90 percent of the audience that cannot remember most people's names. . if they stop caring that is a problem. You get them by putting someone there they already care about.

kill her like that and the first thing you are going to hear is did we even need the scene? it was a waste!! they should just skip it!

Either you put someone their you care about or you skip it till later if you really want any dorne.

[Calibandar]

14 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interesting. HBO has confirmed the seventh season, but not the eighth.

Possibilities:

1. HBO want the final 13 episodes all in Season 7, but will air it in two parts as per Benioff and Weiss's preference, maybe airing the two halves 4 or 6 months apart, or holding the final six back until 2018 anyway. They're only calling it Season 7 for contractual reasons or something.

2. HBO want to see how the raitings for Season 6 hold up for the first few weeks before confirming Season 8. I don't really see the point of them doing that, so 1 I think is more likely.

I suppose option 3 could be that season 7 will be a full season and that the details of the number of episodes for season 8 still needs to be hammered out.

However given the fact that HBO has not given a number of episodes for this 7th season now that they've renewed, might suggest two seasons of fewer episodes.

[Valetudo]

6 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

1 -Myrcella is an important character? 

2 -do i think people would not remember or care? yes totally. why? there was a articles from tv critics and discussions with my show only friends of "why should i care about dany?" who was her brother? and etc... a ton of people don't watch this show as closely as us. dany never do anything to get westeros had people bailing on her storyline. that is 90 percent of the audience that cannot remember most people's names. . if they stop caring that is a problem. You get them by putting someone there they already care about.

3 -kill her like that and the first thing you are going to hear is did we even need the scene? it was a waste!! they should just skip it!

4 -Either you put someone their you care about or you skip it till later if you really want any dorne.

1) I see you have some reading problems. Just look at the very next sentence in the post you quoted, where I say she's not an important character per se (that means by herself). Myrcella is not important, but her death is very important for Cersei and Jaime, 2 main characters. That brings importance to her.

2) I wonder how people could have started to watch this show then. There was a time where nobody cared for any character if I follow your logic, just because we didn't knew any of them! But we still were able to like these scenes and not being bored. How surprising! And that wasn't just in the first episode! Stannis, Mel and Davos are for example introduced in season 2, without any contact with other major characters. The Iron born are introduced when Theon goes home, and Theon was clearly at that moment only a secondary character like Ellaria was in S4. Next season, I'm pretty sure that the show will introduce Euron in the Balon death scene, introducing a new character having him in a scene with a minor character last seen 3 seasons ago.

And really, you can create links between characters without having them sharing the screen. I already mentioned the "previously on" segments and, you know, actors can speak in their scenes too!

If the show needed to introduce some distant cousins of a tertiary character in a scene all by themselves, I understand that connecting them to the rest of the story would have been dificult. But in my example, I was talking about re-introducing a character that is nothing less than the daughter of Cersei, one of the most recognized characters in the show, using Ellaria, the paramour of the most memorable character from s4, that died a shocking and memorable death 2 episodes ago. If a show viewer didn't remembered Oberyn in the beginning of s5, then he's clearly having serious problems. They could have forgotten his name, but if in the scene you made it clear that the wife of the guy that just had is head crushed wants to kill the daughter of Cersei to avenge her lover, I'm sure that everybody that watched GoT until then could understand. And they don't really need to care about Myrcella for it to work. It's not about her, but about the reaction from her mother to said storyline.

3) Are we really talking about unnecessary deaths in GoT? You know that this is literally the biggest selling point of the series, especially for the more casual fans you seem to be so concerned about. Just look at Hardhome, considered by many as the best episode of the series. In this episode, Rattleshirt comes back and is killed in the same scene. Karsi, the wildling mom, is introduced and dies,having less than 5 minutes of screentime. She's considered by many as a memorable character. Balon will come back this season just to fall from a bridge. So yeah, Myrcella could have came back just to die few moments later, if it was done properly.

4) Of course some people have bad memory or don't care enough, but should the show cater to this kind of audience? Last I heard, GoT was supposed to be high quality drama and not some mindless crap like Jersey Shore. You know, this kind of shows have more viewers than GoT! If they really only cared about numbers of casual viewers, then why didn't they cut all these secondary characters that you say the majority of viewers don't remember or care for anyways? If that was the objective, they could have cut the Martells, the Boltons, Varys, LF, Pycelle..., even kept Danny in Westeros and focused the show on a showdown between the big families,with dragons, white walkers (and brothels) to spice it up.

[Tyrosh]

18 hours ago, Valetudo said:

You know a story where Jaime was closer and news of Cersei reached him, and where he had a reason to turn against her? Ah, that's right, the books story!

No, you are missing the point. He would go back and rescue her, his trip would be postponed. As a result there is no story arc with High Sparrow, no new alliance in between Olenna Tyrell and Littlefinger, and so on. Jamie and/or Cersei would end HS right then and there.

As for Trystane, these are not mutually exclusive. Without Dorne trip he wouldn't be in KL/on the SC and/or attacked/killed. He wouldn't be in the story period.

[Tyrosh]

18 hours ago, bad pussy said:

 

The idea is for Cersei to send a conventional force against Dorne and have open warfare between Sunspear and the Iron Throne.

That doesn't happen as Jaime tries to enter Dorne covertly but Ellaria learns about his arrival causing her to escalate her efforts. She doesn't even need to assume Jaime is going to take Myrcella back but just discuss the threat with Doran and Trystane which would be bad for Ellaria. So she ups the stakes and wants to kill Myrcella hoping to get a rash reaction from Jaime or Doran that will lead to war.

The fact Jaime and Ellaria arrive at Myrcella simultaneously is just usual storytelling contrivance. Tywin/Loras arriving at the Blackwater, Stannis arriving at the Wall to stop the Wildlings etc

Right, it's possible, little bit presumptuous of her. Prior to this, these cause/effect events were flawless in GoT (show), this one is a little thin AFAIK.

[Valetudo]

42 minutes ago, Tyrosh said:

No, you are missing the point. He would go back and rescue her, his trip would be postponed. As a result there is no story arc with High Sparrow, no new alliance in between Olenna Tyrell and Littlefinger, and so on. Jamie and/or Cersei would end HS right then and there.

As for Trystane, these are not mutually exclusive. Without Dorne trip he wouldn't be in KL/on the SC and/or attacked/killed. He wouldn't be in the story period.

You know that he's on the Riverlands in the books and he didn't come back for her, right? Why would he necessarily have to come back in the show?  Cersei is only captured in the second half of the season, time where Jaime could easily have been in the Riverlands. 

As for Trystane, you just prove my point. He's totally unnecessary. they should have cut him, or at least his trip to KL.  He appeared in the show  because there was no way to keep him out with so many scenes in Dorne. But his trip to KL really is meaningless. It just serves to make Ellaria and the Sand Snakes even more stupid than they already where. By choosing to assassinate Myrcella in the boat, they sacrificed him. You can argue that his death is what's needed for Doran to go to war, but it's not: his death is not necessary in order to bring war between Dorne and KL, since KL already has enough reasons to go to war (they killed Myrcella), so war is inevitable, Doran wanting it or not. And remember that Doran already has strong reasons to dislike the Lannisters to begin with.

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

The new Hollywood Reporter piece has them saying between 10 and 15 episodes left after season 6, including the now official Season 7, which was unusually announced with no specific episode count mentioned.

[239JMFL34109]

4 hours ago, MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat said:

The new Hollywood Reporter piece has them saying between 10 and 15 episodes left after season 6, including the now official Season 7, which was unusually announced with no specific episode count mentioned.

i wonder if they will skip season 8 altogether and just have a 15 episode season 7 in two parts.