Killing Joke Animated Feature to be Rated R

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 It was the crippling of Barbara Gordon by the Joker that made this book canon. When John Ostrander created the Oracle character in Suicide Squad less than a year later, it set into motion what was arguably the most popular iteration of this character. 

[Kalbear]

I'm saying that TKJ isn't responsible for her rebirth, nor is Moore, and it took Gail Simone to actually make her a real person. Giving that credit to TKJ is unwarranted.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I'm saying that TKJ isn't responsible for her rebirth, nor is Moore, and it took Gail Simone to actually make her a real person. Giving that credit to TKJ is unwarranted.

The Simone version took it to another level for sure, but I think you have to give Ostrander the credit for initially turning a negative into a positive. His run of Suicide Squad is way underrated, in my estimation. Tons of very strong female characters throughout his run. Waller, Oracle and Duchess chief among them.

 And whether you feel it deserves credit or not, TKJ lays the groundwork for reimagining the character.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

21 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I'd say it provided an opportunity for a re-imagining of the character, not that it laid the groundwork. And even that was incidental. There wasn't really anything in TKJ that flushed BG out as anything more than a plot device for Batman and Gordon's characters.

 I think that's fair. 

[Kalbear]

Holy crap this sounds bad. How disappointing.

 

https://storify.com/marcyjcook/start-to-finish-breakdown-of-the-killing-joke-movi

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Holy crap this sounds bad. How disappointing.

 

https://storify.com/marcyjcook/start-to-finish-breakdown-of-the-killing-joke-movi

That format is terrible. Damn near unreadable.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 I read a 109 article regarding this earlier (that I won't link, as it came off as a bit of a SDCC insider wankfest) and came across this post in the comments section...

 

Spoiler

Yeah, but there are a couple of other details that make this pretty gross.

1. In most versions of continuity, Babs and Robin (Bruce’s foster son) had a relationship. This gives a Bruce/Babs relationship a creepy fucking-your-son’s-girlfriend vibe.
2. In most versions of continuity, Bruce consider’s Jim Gordon one of his closest, dearest friends. This means he’s fucking his best friend’s daughter.
3. In most versions of continuity, Bruce is the head of the Bat-family. He’s the grumpy dad, and the other characters are his “kids” who keep trying to get him to lighten up. even if you look at it from a purely workplace-relationship angle, he’s her superior and mentor. He’s a teacher fucking his student.

With only one of those Bruce looks like a skeevy bastard, but with babs you get them all. He’s simultaneously fucking his son’s girlfriend and his best friend’s daughter who is also his own daughter/student. That’s some creepy exploitative porno shit.

And that’s without going into the way she’s still less a character than a prop to generate pain as for the men’s character arcs.

 

       Pretty solid points as to why this was a bad idea.

[Commodore]

this was an awful film (dumb, unoriginal plot, bad animation), but not because of the batgirl stuff SJWs are screaming about (given the controversy, I thought it would be much more explicit)

 

 

[drawkcabi]

Not going to give my opinion of the spoiler topic until I see the movie, but I just want to point out that in Bruce Timm's DCAU:
 

Spoiler

 

It was STRONGLY implied that Barbara and Bruce had an intimate relationship. In Batman Beyond, Barbara (by then police commissioner and moved on and married to someone else) practically admitted it to Terry.

In Mystery of the Batwoman there's a scene where Barbara (at college) calls Bruce and implies that their relationship had changed a bit becoming more intimate and Bruce was giving off a real "I made a terrible mistake" vibe.

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

Not going to give my opinion of the spoiler topic until I see the movie, but I just want to point out that in Bruce Timm's DCAU:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It was STRONGLY implied that Barbara and Bruce had an intimate relationship. In Batman Beyond, Barbara (by then police commissioner and moved on and married to someone else) practically admitted it to Terry.

In Mystery of the Batwoman there's a scene where Barbara (at college) calls Bruce and implies that their relationship had changed a bit becoming more intimate and Bruce was giving off a real "I made a terrible mistake" vibe.

 

 

 

Yeah, it's not unprecedented. They were in a relationship in various versions of the comic and in the cartoon as well.

 

[Jaxom 1974]

I'm sitting in a theatre waiting for a 730 show...it's essentially sold out.  It is, hands down, the most significant nerd fest I've ever attended, in terms of a movie going experience. Worse than the debut of the latest Doctor when it's premiere was shown on the big screen, it's even worse than. The opening midnight showing of Phantom Menace...

[mormont]

On 23/07/2016 at 8:47 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

That's the issue that I have with The Killing Joke being rolled into the mainstream DC continuity. Allen Moore originally intended for this to be an alternate storyline, not a continuation of the mainstream DC universe. But it was so popular that DC made it cannon after it was published.

Although this is widely believed (I thought that myself), it's not actually the case.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/07/22/comic-book-legends-revealed-585/
 

Quote

 

There is a long history of graphic novels that were never intended to be in continuity that were later added to continuity, like Mike W Barr and Jerry Bingham’s Son of the Demon, which was later written into continuity with the introduction of Damian Wayne.

However, that was not the case with the Killing Joke. Alan Moore requested permission to make a permanent change to Barbara Gordon. He might not have felt that DC was going to stick with it as long as they did, but the idea at the time was that the events of The Killing Joke occurred in the DC Universe.

Barbara Kesel has confirmed this a number of times that she was hired to write the Batgirl special where Barbara Gordon retires as Batgirl specifically to set up The Killing Joke.

So, clearly TKJ was always intended to be in continuity and was regarded by Moore and DC as such - which, incidentally, puts the 'Batman killed the Joker' theory to bed, since he appeared in other comics shortly thereafter.

You might believe it would have worked better as an out-of-continuity GN, and that might be true, but it wasn't one.

On 23/07/2016 at 10:17 PM, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

The Simone version took it to another level for sure, but I think you have to give Ostrander the credit for initially turning a negative into a positive. His run of Suicide Squad is way underrated, in my estimation. Tons of very strong female characters throughout his run. Waller, Oracle and Duchess chief among them.

Ostrander and Yale. Ostrander himself is very quick to give credit for a lot of that Squad run, and Oracle in particular, to Kim Yale (rightly so).

http://www.comicmix.com/2015/08/02/john-ostrander-savaging-barbara-gordon/

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

Ostrander and Yale. Ostrander himself is very quick to give credit for a lot of that Squad run, and Oracle in particular, to Kim Yale (rightly so).

http://www.comicmix.com/2015/08/02/john-ostrander-savaging-barbara-gordon/

 Very cool. I didn't realize they were married.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Very cool. I didn't realize they were married.

Yeah, I was a huge fan of their SS run and there's definitely a difference between Ostrander's solo stuff and his co-writing with Yale on SS.

I think it's also relevant to the creation of Oracle, because Yale is the one that's usually given credit for initiating the idea, though she and Ostrander developed it together.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Yeah, I was a huge fan of their SS run and there's definitely a difference between Ostrander's solo stuff and his co-writing with Yale on SS.

I think it's also relevant to the creation of Oracle, because Yale is the one that's usually given credit for initiating the idea, though she and Ostrander developed it together.

 Yeah, it was disappointing to me to hear that they are having Barbara don the Batgirl costume again. She is far more interesting and organic as Oracle. The whole "family" iteration of superheroes (from Captain Marvel to Superman to Batman and the like) just seems so dated and stupid at this point. It's only real worth to me is going back and putting a modern spin on it. Like Alan Moore's Miracleman. Outside of that, it is a device that is best left to rot in the Golden Age.

[mormont]

The contrasting view would be that of course other people would put on a Bat costume, for example, because in the DCU putting on a Bat costume to fight crime is something that actually works. So it makes sense that there's a 'Bat-family'. 

I also feel that Barbara was more unique and interesting as Oracle, though, but that's comics for you. At least the new Batgirl comics are supposedly quite good.

[red snow]

53 minutes ago, mormont said:

The contrasting view would be that of course other people would put on a Bat costume, for example, because in the DCU putting on a Bat costume to fight crime is something that actually works. So it makes sense that there's a 'Bat-family'. 

I also feel that Barbara was more unique and interesting as Oracle, though, but that's comics for you. At least the new Batgirl comics are supposedly quite good.

I tend to agree that franchisement of existing heroes is oddly (and conveniently for publishers) more natural. People are inclined to emulate brands and in the case of crimefighting the association may even protect you. Unless heroes trademarked themselves (tricky with a secret ID) I think others would cash in on other heroes. Moreso when it doesn't involve powers like batman.

I also agree that restoring Barbara as Batgirl was a step backwards as they've lost a really positive disabled character (essentially the DC version of Prof X) for a teen girl in a batsuit that any female character could have filled.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

16 minutes ago, red snow said:

I tend to agree that franchisement of existing heroes is oddly (and conveniently for publishers) more natural. People are inclined to emulate brands and in the case of crimefighting the association may even protect you. Unless heroes trademarked themselves (tricky with a secret ID) I think others would cash in on other heroes. Moreso when it doesn't involve powers like batman.

I also agree that restoring Barbara as Batgirl was a step backwards as they've lost a really positive disabled character (essentially the DC version of Prof X) for a teen girl in a batsuit that any female character could have filled.

 Yeah, I get it from a franchise point of view, but it is really played out at this point. I like realistic portrayals of this (say like the copycat, hockey gear wearing vigilantes in Nolan's The Dark Knight, or the Sons of the Batman in TDKR) but the whole "family" concept is just archaic to me. It's just so 40's-50's. Time to move on.