So, why exactly people think Rickon is dying this season?

[Scorpion92]

3 hours ago, Fiery Heart said:

Thing is Jon is also fire, so...

Thing is Dany might be ice as well if she is indeed Ned/Brandon and Ashara Dayne's baby, so what is your point?

[DireGhost]

17 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

That is what I am saying, it will be the last standing castle in the North when the Wall falls and White Walkers invade. All surviving men will escape there to rally behind Jon. Bran will assist in defeating White Walkers by skinchanging into dead wights and controlling them. It will allow Jon an opening to go and slay Night's King and make a pact with surviving Others. Jon will become King of Winter.

Winterfell will be destroyed though. Jon,Bran,Davos and everyone else who survived Winterfell battle will march south to take his birthright which is Iron Throne (and fulfill his oath to Night's Watch which is to become "sword in the darkness" and "shield that guards the realms of men", which is the epitome of a true, just king). He will encounter Dany, her dragons and whoever survives after her invasion and conquering in the South, which will even out the forces between "ice" and "fire". The Battle for the Dawn will be between Jon and Dany.

So my bottom line is, Winterfell will not survive the series, because Starks will eventually move south and become new royal dynasty of Westeros with a new capital around God's Eye by Harrenhal (where Jon's parents met, where Arya spent a lot of time, and where Sansa is associated with and I am sure she will travel there in Season 7, plus Bran will be nearby on Isle of Faces). Just like Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Eyrie, Pyke and other seats of great houses will all crumble by the end, I believe.

So you think the battle with the Others will NOT be the final battle? I disagree, but just my opinion. I think Jon and Dany unite to defeat them. There is no way that only a handful of Valyrian steel swords will defeat the Night King's army. They will need dragons.

[Fiery Heart]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

Thing is Dany might be ice as well if she is indeed Ned/Brandon and Ashara Dayne's baby, so what is your point?

If she was, which she is not, do you not think that the show would have made some indications of this by now? On the other hand Jon will be revealed as a Targaryen in two episodes time. Why are you saying he is "Ice" when you know that he is not? There is nothing to suggest that Dany and Jon will be going up against each other, nor do their characters have any reason to.

[Scorpion92]

24 minutes ago, DireGhost said:

So you think the battle with the Others will NOT be the final battle? I disagree, but just my opinion. I think Jon and Dany unite to defeat them. There is no way that only a handful of Valyrian steel swords will defeat the Night King's army. They will need dragons.

The final battle will occur on Blue Fork of the Trident between Jon/survivors of the North (including True North)/half of ironborn led by Theon/undead wight army controlled by Bran/White Walkers vs Dany/survivors of the South (including all kingdoms south of the Neck and half of ironborn led by Yara) and Essosi immigrants that Dany will bring across Narrow Sea/dragons.

White Walkers will definitely take part in the final battle, after they make a pact with King of Winter Jon Stark and become part of his army after their defeat at Winterfell.

If you look at Dany's vision in House of Undying in the books where she is in Rhaegar's black armor and on the back of a dragon fighting the Usurper's army all clad in ice, as well as Jon's dream of him armored in ice and swinging burning sword, I interpret this vision as Jon claiming to be Rhaegar's son and heir and trying to USURP Dany's claim on Iron Throne.

And if you really think about it, what is the big deal with White Walkers? You can fly to wherever they stand and bath them in dragonflame, there is not that much of an issue, problem solved. You do not even need an army for that. The REAL conflict will occur, however, if Dany and her dragons oppose a TRUE Targaryen and who leads this rebellious North and whose brother is a God and controlls an undead army. That is different ballgame.

I definitely see Jon and Dany having a romantic connection, but AFTER the Battle for the Dawn, when he proves who he is to her and South. They will start out as enemies and two separate claimants for the Iron Throne.

And, in my opinion, Drogon, the biggest and baddest dragon that there is, a flying and living nuclear bomb, is DESTINED to be skinchanged and tamed by Jon. That is the ONLY way I could see Jon proving his heritage to everyone, and especially to Dany. No one will listen or believe Howland Reed if he ever comes out of his hiding hole.

That is how I see it. And narratively, it will come full circle once Jon finishes Robb Stark's goal of marching on King's Landing and deposing House Lannister from the throne with united Westeros behind him (Mad Queen Cersei will be sitting there until the very end, and she will burn the Iron Throne and the capital in wildfire rather than surrender).

[DireGhost]

Just now, Scorpion92 said:

.

And if you really think about it, what is the big deal with White Walkers? You can fly to wherever they stand and bath them in dragonflame, there is not that much of an issue, problem solved. You do not even need an army for that. The REAL conflict will occur, however, if Dany and her dragons oppose a TRUE Targaryen and who leads this rebellious North and whose brother is a God and controlls an undead army. That is different ballgame.

 

So wait, Dany isn't a true Targaryen?

[Scorpion92]

3 minutes ago, Fiery Heart said:

If she was, which she is not, do you not think that the show would have made some indications of this by now? On the other hand Jon will be revealed as a Targaryen in two episodes time. Why are you saying he is "Ice" when you know that he is not? There is nothing to suggest that Dany and Jon will be going up against each other, nor do their characters have any reason to.

Really? You think when Dany hears of this bastard son of Eddard Stark (who will be legitimized by Sansa in the show) who claims to be really her older brother's son and therefore in result trumps HER claim to Iron Throne, do you think she will believe that nonsense? There is not going to be a conflict there? I don't think so. All her life she heard how she and Viserys were last surviving Targaryens, she will not take it.

As I explained above, Jon's "fire" blood will help him to defeat and  take away Dany's main weapon in the battle as well as prove he is who he claims to be, which is the ONLY legitimate way South will accept Jon Stark as their ruler - by taming and skinchanging Drogon which I presume will be easier to do for Jon with Targaryen blood flowing through his veins. In everything esle, he is northman, Stark, "ice", etc.

[DireGhost]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

Thing is Dany might be ice as well if she is indeed Ned/Brandon and Ashara Dayne's baby, so what is your point?

Ok I just saw this. If Dany is one of the Stark and Ashara's kid, then how in the hell did she get to Dragonstone with Viserys? That just makes absolutely no sense to me. I admit your part about Dany's HotU vision is interesting, but Dany is a Targ....

[Tianzi]

13 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

GRRM has stated that the ending hasn't changed since the beginning so.....

Well, in those approximately ten years till the final book it still can.

But if the final battle is indeed to take place in Winterfell, it undermines Rickon's importance. If Winterfell is to end as just one of the locations, I think that he is the future lord of it.
 

[Fiery Heart]

Back to Rickon... Ramsay can't really keep Rickon alive can he? If the Boltons want to form an alliance Nothern houses and remain in power, it's Sansa they need for that. Keeping him prisoner at Winterfell isn't exactly going to help their cause. With how things are currently looking for them, as well as the very high likelyhood that Ramsay will kill Roose and Fat Walda, Rickon is toast.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

2 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Well, in those approximately ten years till the final book it still can.

But if the final battle is indeed to take place in Winterfell, it undermines Rickon's importance. If Winterfell is to end as just one of the locations, I think that he is the future lord of it.
 

Rickon's going to end up having no importance as the future lord of Winterfell because he won't be the lord of winterfell

 

this kid is going to die soon

[239JMFL34109]

23 hours ago, DireGhost said:

So you think the battle with the Others will NOT be the final battle? I disagree, but just my opinion. I think Jon and Dany unite to defeat them. There is no way that only a handful of Valyrian steel swords will defeat the Night King's army. They will need dragons.

I doubt it comes to a final battle of good vs evil with the others. 

I think there is a battle vs them but not that. i think Dany vs jon will be the final battle after the end of the threat of the others and the fixing of the seasons 

[239JMFL34109]

20 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Rickon's going to end up having no importance as the future lord of Winterfell because he won't be the lord of winterfell

 

this kid is going to die soon

He could in the books but this is not the books so it does not matter. 

[Newstar]

I'm not convinced that Rickon dying in the show means he is doomed in the books, but if he does in fact die in the show, it does suggest that Rickon is unlikely to be part of the endgame in any significant way.

If Davos goes to Skagos and Rickon refuses to return with him in the books and chooses to remain a permanent denizen of Skagos, then the show can safely kill him off without doing any violence to the endgame.

For what it's worth, I believe that the two Reddit posters claiming to know what happens at the BOTB are legit. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

It's weird how people are ready to throw Doran and Aegon away as filler but they cling so hard to Rickon being the lord of Winterfell 

[Newstar]

12 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

It's weird how people are ready to throw Doran and Aegon away as filler but they cling so hard to Rickon being the lord of Winterfell 

LOL, yup.

[Leonardo]

On 4/16/2016 at 9:48 AM, farerb said:

I don't know whether he dies, but I think that people don't understand that if he dies, there is no way for the Starks to continue since the others that are left are two girls and a cripple who can't have children.

Um try googling matrilineal marriage? It may just continue through the female line instead.

 

Also the only evidence we have about Bran not being able to have children is through Ned, and he's not an expert. Plenty of people in Bran's position can still get the deed done.

[Myself656]

On 4/27/2016 at 0:03 PM, Scorpion92 said:

The final battle will occur on Blue Fork of the Trident between Jon/survivors of the North (including True North)/half of ironborn led by Theon/undead wight army controlled by Bran/White Walkers vs Dany/survivors of the South (including all kingdoms south of the Neck and half of ironborn led by Yara) and Essosi immigrants that Dany will bring across Narrow Sea/dragons.

White Walkers will definitely take part in the final battle, after they make a pact with King of Winter Jon Stark and become part of his army after their defeat at Winterfell.

If you look at Dany's vision in House of Undying in the books where she is in Rhaegar's black armor and on the back of a dragon fighting the Usurper's army all clad in ice, as well as Jon's dream of him armored in ice and swinging burning sword, I interpret this vision as Jon claiming to be Rhaegar's son and heir and trying to USURP Dany's claim on Iron Throne.

And if you really think about it, what is the big deal with White Walkers? You can fly to wherever they stand and bath them in dragonflame, there is not that much of an issue, problem solved. You do not even need an army for that. The REAL conflict will occur, however, if Dany and her dragons oppose a TRUE Targaryen and who leads this rebellious North and whose brother is a God and controlls an undead army. That is different ballgame.

I definitely see Jon and Dany having a romantic connection, but AFTER the Battle for the Dawn, when he proves who he is to her and South. They will start out as enemies and two separate claimants for the Iron Throne.

And, in my opinion, Drogon, the biggest and baddest dragon that there is, a flying and living nuclear bomb, is DESTINED to be skinchanged and tamed by Jon. That is the ONLY way I could see Jon proving his heritage to everyone, and especially to Dany. No one will listen or believe Howland Reed if he ever comes out of his hiding hole.

That is how I see it. And narratively, it will come full circle once Jon finishes Robb Stark's goal of marching on King's Landing and deposing House Lannister from the throne with united Westeros behind him (Mad Queen Cersei will be sitting there until the very end, and she will burn the Iron Throne and the capital in wildfire rather than surrender).

I think you're a bit too binary in your conflicts... you presume there's only going to be two sides in the final battle. My hunch is that it will actually end up being a THREE-sided conflict.

I don't think its an accident that Winterfell is basically 1000 miles from King's Landing (where Dany is likely to land her forces) and 1000 miles from the Wall (where the Walkers are likely to breach). Its smack dab in the middle of the two extremes of Fire (Dany and her dragons) and Ice (the Others). If both forces advance at roughly the same pace they should clash right about at Winterfell.

Not coincidentally, the commander of the forces at Winterfell... a rag tag band of cripples, bastards and broken things by all accounts... is going to be a child of both Ice AND Fire; a balance (both in harmony) not a battle (one victorious over the other)... a SONG not a dance.

I think we're being set up for the battle to end all battles between Ice and Fire, but that by that point are group in the middle will have learned that if either extreme wins the world will be destroyed (bathed in endless cold night or eternal fiery day) so that the battle happening between Dany and the Others is actually a FAIL state and that the ONLY way to actually save the world is going to be to find a path to peace between the two opposing forces once again... something than only a child of BOTH Ice and Fire can pull off.

Related to the topic at hand though... if Winterfell is the site of the final battle (and narratively speaking a story will almost always end where it begins in earnest) then there's no need for any male Stark other than Jon to be in a position to be the heir to Winterfell (because if its where Jon brings peace, then it will likely also become the seat of his rule not King's Landing). Bran has an easy out as either never leaving the tree (or returning once the conflict has ended) and not being able to produce an heir regardless, but Rickon needs to be removed from the picture by that point.

[Scorpion92]

7 hours ago, Myself656 said:

I think you're a bit too binary in your conflicts... you presume there's only going to be two sides in the final battle. My hunch is that it will actually end up being a THREE-sided conflict.

I don't think its an accident that Winterfell is basically 1000 miles from King's Landing (where Dany is likely to land her forces) and 1000 miles from the Wall (where the Walkers are likely to breach). Its smack dab in the middle of the two extremes of Fire (Dany and her dragons) and Ice (the Others). If both forces advance at roughly the same pace they should clash right about at Winterfell.

Not coincidentally, the commander of the forces at Winterfell... a rag tag band of cripples, bastards and broken things by all accounts... is going to be a child of both Ice AND Fire; a balance (both in harmony) not a battle (one victorious over the other)... a SONG not a dance.

I think we're being set up for the battle to end all battles between Ice and Fire, but that by that point are group in the middle will have learned that if either extreme wins the world will be destroyed (bathed in endless cold night or eternal fiery day) so that the battle happening between Dany and the Others is actually a FAIL state and that the ONLY way to actually save the world is going to be to find a path to peace between the two opposing forces once again... something than only a child of BOTH Ice and Fire can pull off.

Related to the topic at hand though... if Winterfell is the site of the final battle (and narratively speaking a story will almost always end where it begins in earnest) then there's no need for any male Stark other than Jon to be in a position to be the heir to Winterfell (because if its where Jon brings peace, then it will likely also become the seat of his rule not King's Landing). Bran has an easy out as either never leaving the tree (or returning once the conflict has ended) and not being able to produce an heir regardless, but Rickon needs to be removed from the picture by that point.

I see what you are saying and how both ice and fire are destructive and need to be complementing each other - which is exactly my point. But what I argue is that if Dany and Others fight between each other, then where is the "conflict of human heart" here that George Martin loves so much? I mean, it is automatic at this point that the readers will be cheering for Dany and her side to win this battle. No matter how Martin portrays them in the books, if White Walkers are not allied with one of the heroes of the story, I will not just care about them, it is simple. The message George wants to bring in his books,in my opinion, is to show how pointless and bloody and ugly the war is, and pitting Dany and Others against each other will not make me question the series in such way, I will be team-Dany right away (as I presume majority of the fandom).

That is why I think that the "ice" faction will have a leader who will be one of the main POVs of this story, just like Dany is the leader of "fire faction". And there have been many many hints in the story indicating connection between House Stark and Others. The whole key in all this is Bran, in my opinion. I suspect that his powers will grow with more training and blood magic involved, and as he is probably the most powerful skinchanger and greenseer alive (I think he will be more than that but that is a separate thread by itself), then he will be able to control the undead army that White Walkers skinchange (the reason why wights' eyes are blue, they are reflecting the beings controlling them). There are also many textual connections between Bran and the whole "death" motif. If he is controlling undead army by power of skinchanging, it will put him as the most powerful being in the universe, even more so than Dany and her dragons, I believe.

So yeah, my main argument is that both Jon and Bran will be in charge of the faction that leads legions of "undead" and White Walkers to South, which will also iinclude some living men too.

Even think about the title of King of Winter - you have to defeat and subdue WINTER itself in order to become its king. That is how it works. And Jon has LOTS and LOTS of textual connections to Kings of Winter down in the crypt - because he will be one of them.

[Guest]

Rickons life depends on whether he is part of the end game of the world. If not, minor charaters and stories are well beyond the limited intelligence of D and D. Everyone not part of the end game is being killed off as GRRM did provide these simplistic idiots with enough of the story that they could develop it.

Watch episode one, goes from climax to climax. which is all GRRM had written.  D and D are not even smart enough to make the story sensible. 

[the tower of albion]

If the north has Rickon (safe) perhaps Ramsay's pink letter bluff will be that he has Bran?