Who was the bigger failure? Tytos or Tywin?

[dRagonese]

14 hours ago, John Doe said:

I'll reply to the rest later, but Ned Stark had three houses and Theon, wo he supposedly treated as a son, betraying him while Tywin had no single rebellion during the decades he ruled the Westerlands, and even now with no strong Lannister figure head there are no rebellions. It seems obvious whose method worked better for their regions.

this is malarky. While Ned was alive none of the north was in open revolt and had he continued to live they never would have.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Tytos was a terrible lord but a great father.

Tywin was a great lord but a terrible father.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

Tytos was a terrible lord but a great father.

According to who?

His 7 year old daughter he married to a Frey?

His 10 year son he sent to fight in the Nine Penny Wars while he stayed at home with his mistress?

His second son he sent to the Reynes as a hostage shortly before they murdered the boys grandfather?

We know very little about Tytos the father but what little we do know from the World book does not paint him in a flattering light.

When Genna talks about Tywin to Jaime she points out her fondest memory is the time that Tywin and Tywin alone stood up for her:

"Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little."

The implication being that her father was not trying to protect her while her brother was.

All we really get from Kevan on the subject of his father was " for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs."

Tytos may have been gentler and a more amiable person than his heir but that does not necessarily mean he was a decent father. His weakness of needing to be liked meant sending his young daughter off to marry beneath her while Kevan was sent of to enemies of his House.

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, dRagonese said:

this is malarky. While Ned was alive none of the north was in open revolt and had he continued to live they never would have.

Roose Bolton broke the law even while Ned was alive (presumably other houses did the same) while Lady Dustin who commands two powerful houses wished for his death. And then there are those who revolted shortly after Ned Stark died, seems like if he had inspired such loyalty there wouldn't have been five houses and his ward to openly threaten his oldest son.

I hope you complain about this post too though. 

2 hours ago, Risto said:

And whose fault is that? You can't secure the legacy if you don't realize who is going to carry said legacy after your death. Just like it was Suleiman's fault that he has left drunken fool after him, it is Tywin's fault that he has left maniacal Cersei.

 Which is indeed nonsense. Tywin planned to marry Cersei off soon, thereby removing her from power. Or do you honestly want to argue that he should have forseen Jaime and Varys teaming up to free Tyrion, Varys showing him the way to Tywin's bedroom, placing Shae there and Tyrion then killing him? 

2 hours ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

The higher you climb, the harder you fall.

Indeed, the Targaryens and Starks prove that very well.

[Mladen]

18 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Which is indeed nonsense. Tywin planned to marry Cersei off soon, thereby removing her from power. Or do you honestly want to argue that he should have forseen Jaime and Varys teaming up to free Tyrion, Varys showing him the way to Tywin's bedroom, placing Shae there and Tyrion then killing him? 

Tywin was myopic when his children were concerned. He didn't see how useful Tyrion was, he didn't see the problematic relationship between the twins. People speak about legacy and yet Tywin neglected the very people who were supposed to carry out that legacy. That was his biggest problem and utterly, his doom.

[The Wolves]

7 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Roose Bolton broke the law even while Ned was alive (presumably other houses did the same) while Lady Dustin who commands two powerful houses wished for his death. And then there are those who revolted shortly after Ned Stark died, seems like if he had inspired such loyalty there wouldn't have been five houses and his ward to openly threaten his oldest son.

When did Roose break the law when while Ned was alive when he raped the women? I'm pretty sure that was during Rickard's time. Roose must have feared the Starks to have to cut out the woman's tongue and kill her brother to keep them from telling the Starks. 

And Lady Dustin did hate Ned but she didn't rebel she didn't do anything to bring the Starks' wraith on her she even sent Robb men. 

Say what you want about Ned Stark but for a man who spent most of his life in the Vale and probably didn't have many interactions with the Northmen ever since he crossed the Neck after Rickard's and Brandon's death that man has had loyalty, love and fear from the North since he became Lord of Winterfell. 

Ned never had to fight his own bannermen when they went to war with the Targs. And again the northerners are crossing a deadly winter blizzard for "Ned's girl" yet the Lannister bannermen couldn't move their asses from the Riverlands for Tywin's daughter, the queen regent and their leige while she was locked up tortured and humiliated. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

snip

Of course none of the Lords who disliked the Starks rebelled while Ned was Lord. His two best friends, Robert and Jon, were the two most powerful men in the Kingdom while his father in law was the ruler of the neighboring realm. It would have been suicide.

And is anyone really surprised that the Mountain Clan members are going to Winterfell now that it is Winter (but stayed at home when Winterfell was really in trouble) and there are no more harvests to bring in? Many are going to sacrifice themselves as this Winter will see famine and starvation.  It also helps that Ned is part Motuntain Clan member himself with his grandmother being Arya Flint.

[Dofs]

No, Tywin wasn't a bigger failure than his father, at all, unless you mean in being a decent person. Yes, Tywin's legacy isn't exactly good thank to his children but if you want to directly compare their accomplishments, than you should point your attention towards Westerlands which were ruined by Tytos but were completely fine under Tywin and are fine now still. If you call Tywin a failure because of his children, then, well Tytos's legacy is Tywin. Saying that Tytos succeeded better than Tywin in producing children because he produced a supposed failure Tywin is a faulty logic. 

[James Steller]

4 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Yes, Tywin's legacy isn't exactly good thanks to his children but if you want to directly compare their accomplishments, than you should point your attention towards Westerlands which were ruined by Tytos but were completely fine under Tywin and are fine now still. 

I don't know. Robb ravaged a large part of the Westerlands during the war, and until the series is over, we won't know just how the Westerlands will turn out. But between the vengeful Dornish, the Targaryens who know what Tywin did to their family, and the Starks/Rivermen who remember what the Lannisters did to them, it's safe to say that the Westerlands have a lot more enemies now than before Tywin was in charge. 

[Dofs]

12 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I wasn't blaming Tywin for sending Jaime away (or not sending Tyrion away), only suggesting that Cersei may be the most fucked up of the three children because she was the one who spent the most time with her father and absorbed his values and view of world (albeit through a somewhat distorted lens). Thanks for being a dick, though.

Cersei had killed her best friend at the age of 10 and up to that point they were inseparable with Jaime, hence she didn't spend more time with Tywin than her brother. It was probably the other way around with Jaime being a boy. Cersei is, imo, pretty clearly fucked up from birth. Here it is a fault of nature, not nurture. 

11 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I don't know. Robb ravaged a large part of the Westerlands during the war, and until the series is over, we won't know just how the Westerlands will turn out. But between the vengeful Dornish, the Targaryens who know what Tywin did to their family, and the Starks/Rivermen who remember what the Lannisters did to them, it's safe to say that the Westerlands have a lot more enemies now than before Tywin was in charge. 

Robb's campaign while clearly damaged the Westerlands, it was only for a short period of time and they had probably recovered by now there. What Dornish, Targaryens and others will do to Westerlands is pure speculation but at least about Targaryen I really doubt the Lannisters and Westerlands would be dealt with any different than other rebel families and their regions. 

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Tywin was myopic when his children were concerned. He didn't see how useful Tyrion was,

 he didn't see the problematic relationship between the twins. 

That's why he made him hand and later master of coin?

That's why he actually would have separated them?

[Mladen]

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

That's why he made him hand and later master of coin?

That's why he actually would have separated them?

Because he was so nice and didn't want to admit Tyrion is the heir? Because he actually throw Tyrion under the bus, fully aware that he didn't kill Joffrey? 

As for twins, separating them? He was just doing what he was supposed to do. Separation of twins wasn't the goal, it was the side effect. Tywin raised three children and if those children felt 1/100 of loyalty Stark children had felt for Ned, he would be still ruling the Seven Kingdoms. He was a bad parent and created dysfunctional family which is why his legacy is ultimately doomed.

[lidsa]

Tywin.  

While Tytos is the bigger loser-persona, he still had Tywin, Kevan, and Genna succeeding him. Tywin especially counteracted Tytos' failures. Unfortunately for Tywin, he did not beget children like that. His offspring will pick up right where Tytos left off.

[Julia H.]

They both failed spectacularly but in different ways. To be fair, a lot of what we know of Tytos comes from a source biased in favour of Tywin, who was very critical of his father's ways. 

As for Tywin, he was so invested in an abstract Lannister future that he failed to notice that his children were actually human beings. He treated them only as assets to be used to achieve his goals but he apparently never tried to understand or guide or even to know them. To a large extent, that attitude became the undoing of his House. I think this attitude stems from the same personality traits that resulted in many genuinely cruel actions towards those who weren't of his House and which created the myth of this intimidating and all-powerful lord of Casterly Rock.

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

Because he was so nice and didn't want to admit Tyrion is the heir? Because he actually throw Tyrion under the bus, fully aware that he didn't kill Joffrey? 

As for twins, separating them? He was just doing what he was supposed to do. Separation of twins wasn't the goal, it was the side effect. Tywin raised three children and if those children felt 1/100 of loyalty Stark children had felt for Ned, he would be still ruling the Seven Kingdoms. He was a bad parent and created dysfunctional family which is why his legacy is ultimately doomed.

Quote that he was fully aware he didn't kill Joffrey?

What did this loyalty the Stark children felt for Ned to his family exactly? Do you mean his failure of a son marching south and loosing the North? Arya trying to become "no one", a mindless assasin trying to forget her family roots? Sansa becoming Littlefinger's pawn? Bran being stuck in a cave? Yeah, I'm sure this kind of good parenting would have ensured his families rule over the Seven Kingdoms when it didn't even ensure the Starks their rule over the one kingdom they had ruled for millenias.

How should Tywin have noticed the relationship exactly? What should he have done? You just established separating them wasn't enough, so kill them? Castrate them? Have their heads chopped off at a wedding as good Stark parenting would have ensured the future of his house?

16 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

They both failed spectacularly but in different ways. To be fair, a lot of what we know of Tytos comes from a source biased in favour of Tywin, who was very critical of his father's ways. 

You mean his children? Are you really going to argue now that, despite of having no knowledge of any conflict between them, they are biased in favor of Tywin too because they don't badmouth him?

[Julia H.]

1 minute ago, John Doe said:

 

You mean his children? Are you really going to argue now that, despite of having no knowledge of any conflict between them, they are biased in favor of Tywin too because they don't badmouth him?

No. I mean Yandel, who doesn't dare to criticize anything that Tywin does. He gives us the bulk of the Tytos story. I'm not saying that he necessarily distorts this story, but he tends to flatter Tywin whenever Tywin is mentioned.   

[John Doe]

8 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

No. I mean Yandel, who doesn't dare to criticize anything that Tywin does. He gives us the bulk of the Tytos story. I'm not saying that he necessarily distorts this story, but he tends to flatter Tywin whenever Tywin is mentioned.   

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant Kevan or Genna. 

[Neds Secret]

I think that Tywins most monumental blunder was left for the very end. In his spiteful enthusiasm to pronounce Tyrion guilty of Joffreys murder he succeeded, by this very action, in exonerating the true culprit. Thus leaving his family in the precarious position of having a true enemy out there, unmasked and cocky and free to strike again at the Lannisters. You would think Tywin would be smart enough to want to find and punish the true culprit, instead he has enboldened them and left house Lannister languishing in position of false security created by their own ignorance as to their true enemy, that was not Tyrion!

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

Tytos produced a decent family, raised an heir and solidified his legacy. Something that Tywin, despite what he says, failed to do.

Tytos was weak and thus mocked and disobeyed, but due to lack of ambition he didn´t really risk anything, either. Was Casterly Rock ever really at danger because of him? Doubt it. Tywins line is likely to die out, his family is hated everywhere because of him, his grandchildrens days on the throne are numbered and his family might even lose it all.

We will not know until the story is finished, but I´d say they were bot failures in their own way. While Tytos failure is very obvious, Tywin with all his skills reached to high and know his successors will pay the price. 

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

The talk of Cersei being  at fault and not Tywin, doesn't exonerate Tywin, because it is he who made her queen. And really tried to get her queen when the Targaryens ruled. And as for Cersei's behavior, Tywin's own actions and role as a father isn't blameless.  Of course he has other failures than that, such as how he treated Tyrion, his blindness to the twins actions or how he raised the hatred of the other houses in Westeros towards the Lannisters.

Indeed Tywin and the Lannisters found themselves lucky in the war of the five kings, many eventualities could have gone differently, such as Tyrion dying in battle before helping in the capital or if Stannis did not kill Renly. The relationship of the twins and making Cersei queen were fatal mistakes for the Lannisters, and not merely reflecting bad on Tywin as a father. Of course the Lannisters managed to survive long enough for Tywin's relationship of Tyrion to end up fatal.

So I see Tywin as a failure in general as his machiavelian goals are undermined by his own family.

However I know too little about Tytos to compare things to him. What would Tytos be willing to compromise with? What would be the result of Tytos actions without Tywin interfering? It might had ended disastrously or it might had ended badly but with the Lannisters remaining but with reduced influence. Not sure how to judge Tytos, but I am not sure that the point is that Tywin is necessarily worse. Just that his way is also a failure. But as someone who does care about how good a person you are and how you treat your children, even if I consider Tywin and Tytos ways equally a failure of being a lord, I am going to consider Tywin a bigger failure because he also fails as a human being and a father.