Who was the bigger failure? Tytos or Tywin?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

This might seem like a dumb question with an obvious answer, but honestly I think it's far more complicated than people would normally assume.

Yes, Tytos was a man who nearly ruined the region of Westeros over which he was lord. The Lannister bannermen openly mocked him, they didn't pay back loans, and they abused his kindly and forgiving nature for years. Tywin learned to distrust laughter because of the men who laughed at his father, and he frequently clashed with Tytos on how things needed to be done. Three times during Tytos' rule, the Targaryens had to intervene and restore order, and the Lannisters needed to deal with a serious rebellion because of Tytos' inaction and passivity.

But the thing about Tytos is that he was regarded as a good man. Tywin seems to have resented Tytos' weakness, but Tytos is never recorded as being a cruel father. The worst thing he apparently did to his children was marry one of them off to a low-ranking man, and even then she seems to have made the best of her situation.

Tywin, meanwhile, ranks as one of the most unlikable fathers in Westeros, and frankly just one of the worst people in general. For all his success as Hand of the King, he makes enemies left and right due to his Machiavellian strategies and willingness to commit acts of severe cruelty through his associates (Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, the Freys, etc). And with the exceptions of Joanna and Kevan Lannister, pretty much every member of his direct family quarrelled with him at some point or other. Genna got snubbed for half a year just because she gave a compliment Tyrion's way. Tygett and Gerold argued furiously with Tywin in their lifetimes. Jaime and Cersei have strenuous relationships with Tywin, and Tyrion... well, we all know how Tyrion and Tywin's relationship ended.

And more than just leaving a horrible legacy in his traumatized children, Tywin has also left his house in a horrible position. They're hated by half of Westeros, and the other half fearfully obeyed them while Tywin was alive, but now it's going to be more difficult to keep them in line. The Lannister family themselves have either turned on each other or are scattered in the series of conflicts that have yet to be resolved. And it's safe to say that most of them will die before the story ends.

Long story short, the argument of whether Tytos or Tywin failed harder is a much more difficult question to answer than most would think, and I daresay that Tywin, for all his attempts to succeed where Tytos failed, nevertheless found ways to fail even worse than his father ever did.

[The Wolves]

Tywin is the bigger failure. 

And you can say what you want about Tytos but he raised some okay children until Tywin became a monster. Genna,Keven and their siblings seem to have been good  people and never worked against house Lannister like Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion have . 

Yes Tytos was a weak lord but I think even though his bannermen disliked him and used him they still had love and loyalty to house Lannister assembling when Tywin called to put down the Reynes and Tarbecks. 

Tywin have made many enemies for house Lannister which Tytos never plus Tywin was murdered by his son that alone makes him a failure. 

[The Arthur Smith]

I agreed that Tywin is the biggest failure more so than his father.

The biggest mistake Tyrin committed is his abuse on his children. His treatment toward his children, especially Tyrion, is what lead to the downfall of the Lannister. He strives for the Lannister's legacy and since this resulted his children rebelling his wishes and shiting on their house's reputation, this could be one of the greatest retribution in the series.

[Kaibaman]

8 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Tywin is the bigger failure. 

And you can say what you want about Tytos but he raised some okay children until Tywin became a monster. Genna,Keven and their siblings seem to have been good  people and never worked against house Lannister like Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion have . 

Yes Tytos was a weak lord but I think even though his bannermen disliked him and used him they still had love and loyalty to house Lannister assembling when Tywin called to put down the Reynes and Tarbecks. 

Tywin have made many enemies for house Lannister which Tytos never plus Tywin was murdered by his son that alone makes him a failure. 

I wouldn't say Tywin became a monster but rather his behavior is more reactionary towards his father's ineptitude. The thing is no one respected Tytos because he was a complete pushover. Tywin at an early age had to step up and pick up his father's slack less his family get ousted by their rivals which they nearly did. Given Tytos's lack of political sense and horrible decisions as Lord Paramount, I don't think I would have acted that much differently had I been in Tywin's place (although I wouldn't have slaughtered the entire families of my rebellious bannermen or rendered their castles inoperable).

[John Doe]

Tytos. Tywin was one of the most skilled politians of his time. 

 

[Neolaina]

For those picking Tywin, consider that how he ended up can be counted as a failure for Tytos.

I was trying to type this long, grand exposition on why Tywin should take the award, but how he grew was as a direct response to Tytos' nature, reputation, and the effects of both. One extreme begat another. 

Which, damn.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

HBut the thing about Tytos is that he was regarded as a good man. Tywin seems to have resented Tytos' weakness, but Tytos is never recorded as being a cruel father. The worst thing he apparently did to his children was marry one of them off to a low-ranking man, and even then she seems to have made the best of her situation.

Tywin, meanwhile, ranks as one of the most unlikable fathers in Westeros, and frankly just one of the worst people in general. For all his success as Hand of the King, he makes enemies left and right due to his Machiavellian strategies and willingness to commit acts of severe cruelty through his associates (Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, the Freys, etc). And with the exceptions of Joanna and Kevan Lannister, pretty much every member of his direct family quarrelled with him at some point or other. Genna got snubbed for half a year just because she gave a compliment Tyrion's way. Tygett and Gerold argued furiously with Tywin in their lifetimes. Jaime and Cersei have strenuous relationships with Tywin, and Tyrion... well, we all know how Tyrion and Tywin's relationship ended.

And more than just leaving a horrible legacy in his traumatized children, Tywin has also left his house in a horrible position. They're hated by half of Westeros, and the other half fearfully obeyed them while Tywin was alive, but now it's going to be more difficult to keep them in line. The Lannister family themselves have either turned on each other or are scattered in the series of conflicts that have yet to be resolved. And it's safe to say that most of them will die before the story ends.

His kids weren't traumatized... only Tyrion. Which is bad, but you shouldn't make three traumatized Lannister children out of one. If you can point to a quote that shows us when or how he abused Jaime or Cersei, please do. 

His house was in a strong position at the time he died, he had defeated all of his enemies (so three kingdoms), complete control over the king and half the small council, the wealthiest house and an alliance with the strongest house in the realm.

Okay, you said half the kingdom hated him or obeyed him fearfully. Let's look at the seven kingdoms and see what's true and what Tywin could have done to help it. 

The North hated him because Joffry took Ned Stark's head, an action Tywin despised for its stupidity. Do you think the Northeners would have made peace afterwards? The RW secured at least one allied house in the North and destroyed the resistence for years to come.

The Riverlands were attacked by Tywin, that is true, but they were defeated pretty quickly and Tywin at least made an alliance with two houses there. 

Dorne hated him because of what happedned to the last Targaryens, but that actions earned Tywin the great position he was in during the nearly twenty years that followed AGOT, so it seems like it was worth the risk considering Dorne is too far away to hurt the Westerlands normally. 

So that's the three regions that hate Tywin, let's look at the others. 

Iron Islands- they hate pretty much everyone, but offered Tywin in alliance

Stormlands- he defeated them, but I don't think their dislike, if they even have one,  goes much beyond that

Westerlands- loyal to him

Reach- allied with him

The Vale was pretty much neutral, some expressed dislike for the Lannisters, but that's probably mostly because Lysa did.

So three regions support him willingly, while the Riverlands and maybe the Stormlands could be considered "fearfully obeying" him. I suppose you put the North into the "hate" and not "fearfully obey" category.

1 hour ago, The Arthur Smith said:

The biggest mistake Tyrin committed is his abuse on his children. His treatment toward his children, especially Tyrion, is what lead to the downfall of the Lannister. He strives for the Lannister's legacy and since this resulted his children rebelling his wishes and shiting on their house's reputation, this could be one of the greatest retribution in the series.

Again, where does it say he abused Jaime or Cersei? We were in both of their heads and I don't think I ever read about them being abused, especially not by westerosi standards. 

[The Arthur Smith]

14 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Again, where does it say he abused Jaime or Cersei? We were in both of their heads and I don't think I ever read about them being abused, especially not by westerosi standards. 

I'm exaggerating, sorry. But Tywin did treat Cersei like a cattle like marrying her off after Robert's death. Though women used as political pawn is normal by Westerosi standard, Tywin's lack of regards for Cersei does cause her to become a mess up person and everything that happened to tarnish the Lannister's legacy in Feast and so forth.

[John Doe]

Just now, The Arthur Smith said:

I'm exaggerating, sorry. But Tywin did treat Cersei like a cattle like marrying her off after Robert's death. Though women used as political pawn is normal by Westerosi standard, Tywin's lack of regards for Cersei does cause her to become a mess up person and everything that happened to tarnish the Lannister's legacy in Feast and so forth.

I think Cersei was messed up long before Robert's death... wasn't she already cruel as a kid? Had Tywin succeeded in marrying her off before his death it would've been much better for the realm too as she probably couldn't have assumed regency and destroyed his legacy in just a few months. 

I don't think using her as a political pawn is that bad,  every nobleman does it. Ned is widely regarded as one of the, if not the best father(s) in the series and he wanted to marry Arya and Sansa off too. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

14 minutes ago, John Doe said:

His kids weren't traumatized... only Tyrion. Which is bad, but you shouldn't make three traumatized Lannister children out of one. If you can point to a quote that shows us when or how he abused Jaime or Cersei, please do. 

His house was in a strong position at the time he died, he had defeated all of his enemies (so three kingdoms), complete control over the king and half the small council, the wealthiest house and an alliance with the strongest house in the realm.

Okay, you said half the kingdom hated him or obeyed him fearfully. Let's look at the seven kingdoms and see what's true and what Tywin could have done to help it. 

The North hated him because Joffry took Ned Stark's head, an action Tywin despised for its stupidity. Do you think the Northeners would have made peace afterwards? The RW secured at least one allied house in the North and destroyed the resistence for years to come.

The Riverlands were attacked by Tywin, that is true, but they were defeated pretty quickly and Tywin at least made an alliance with two houses there. 

Dorne hated him because of what happedned to the last Targaryens, but that actions earned Tywin the great position he was in during the nearly twenty years that followed AGOT, so it seems like it was worth the risk considering Dorne is too far away to hurt the Westerlands normally. 

So that's the three regions that hate Tywin, let's look at the others. 

Iron Islands- they hate pretty much everyone, but offered Tywin in alliance

Stormlands- he defeated them, but I don't think their dislike, if they even have one,  goes much beyond that

Westerlands- loyal to him

Reach- allied with him

The Vale was pretty much neutral, some expressed dislike for the Lannisters, but that's probably mostly because Lysa did.

So three regions support him willingly, while the Riverlands and maybe the Stormlands could be considered "fearfully obeying" him. I suppose you put the North into the "hate" and not "fearfully obey" category.

Again, where does it say he abused Jaime or Cersei? We were in both of their heads and I don't think I ever read about them being abused, especially not by westerosi standards. 

Firstly, your listing of the regions is a touch inaccurate, in my opinion. The Vale doesn't just hate the Lannisters because Lysa does. Yohn Royce and his allies wanted to join Robb because they felt Robb was the injured party and was right to rebel against Tywin and the Crown.

The Stormlands certainly count as "fearfully obeying", and I also include the Crownlands since half of them joined Stannis initially. The Iron Islands hate everyone, yes, and that alliance was the act of one crazy man in charge; none of the other Greyjoys would have done so. Dorne hates him, the North hates him, the Riverlands hate him, and they're all still plotting against him and his allies, or if not, then they're biding their time and waiting for the chance to strike back. The Reach are biding their time and playing their own game, using the Lannister allegiance for as long as it suits them, I don't consider them true allies. Jon Arryn was a true ally to Robert Baratheon; he risked everything to overthrow the Mad King, all because of his devotion to Robert as a foster father. That was a real alliance which withstood the odds. It's easy for the Reach and Westerlands to join forces when they hold all the advantages. And hell, they still can't get it right with all the backstabbing and smack-talking going on even in the third book.

I also say that the Westerlands is made up of people who fearfully obey him. The Lannisters' bannermen were shown the massacre of the Reynes and Tarbecks and follow Tywin through fear rather than love. Ned Stark, for example, inspires loyalty long after his death. Men are willing to die by the thousands to save "The Ned"'s daughter from the Boltons, Tywin's ally. When the Lannisters begin to falter, I wager that we'll see the Westerlands splinter again, just as they did with Tytos.

Secondly, Tywin was the only thing keeping everything together. Sure, it was fine while he still lived, but it all began to fall apart pretty much the instant that he died. It's symbolized with his corpse's severe stench. In death, all his triumphs and successes sour and are replaced with filth as the children he raised show just how their lives have made them into such awful people.

Thirdly, abuse doesn't have to be physical. He frequently imposed his will on his children despite what they felt. Cersei is driven by the fact that she feels cast aside because she's a woman. Tywin never connected with her the way that, say, Ned Stark would try to reach out to Arya by giving her a sword instructor to teach her how to fight. Throughout the story, Tywin dominates his children and never gives the impression that he genuinely loves them or sees them as individuals. They are just pawns in his game for power and the legacy of the Lannisters.

And Tyrion meanwhile gets an insane amount of abuse his way. The way Tywin always talks to him, openly shows his hate for him, what he does to Tysha, all of it culminates in Tyrion murdering his own father. The fact that most say Tywin had it coming shows just how bad of a father Tywin is.

[John Doe]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Ned Stark, for example, inspires loyalty long after his death. enuinely loves them or sees them as individuals. They are just pawns in his game for power and the legacy of the Lannisters.

I'll reply to the rest later, but Ned Stark had three houses and Theon, wo he supposedly treated as a son, betraying him while Tywin had no single rebellion during the decades he ruled the Westerlands, and even now with no strong Lannister figure head there are no rebellions. It seems obvious whose method worked better for their regions.

[The Arthur Smith]

Just now, John Doe said:

I think Cersei was messed up long before Robert's death... wasn't she already cruel as a kid? Had Tywin succeeded in marrying her off before his death it would've been much better for the realm too as she probably couldn't have assumed regency and destroyed his legacy in just a few months. 

I don't think using her as a political pawn is that bad,  every nobleman does it. Ned is widely regarded as one of the, if not the best father(s) in the series and he wanted to marry Arya and Sansa off too. 

At the very least Tywin should discipline Cersei to be less of a bitch than she is now.

Ned marry off Sansa to Joffrey cause she wanted this. Ned done this to make his daughter happy all while maintaining the Stark-Baratheon relation. Initially Ned planned to marry off Arya to Tommen, but when Arya talked to Ned about not wanting to get marry and instead want to be like a boy, Ned accepted this.

Tywin on the other hand, would never give in his children's wish. He cancelled the betrothed plan of marrying Cersei to Rhaegar, something Cersei never forgive him for that. He wanted Jaime to inherited Casterly Rock and blackmailed him into accepting the deal in return with saving Tyrion's life (or is that show only, idk). And needless we explain Tywin's relationship with Tyrion. In short, Tywin done most of it to preserve his house's glory.

[The Wolves]

3 minutes ago, John Doe said:

I'll reply to the rest later, but Ned Stark had three houses and Theon, wo he supposedly treated as a son, betraying him while Tywin had no single rebellion during the decades he ruled the Westerlands, and even now with no strong Lannister figure head there are no rebellions. It seems obvious whose method worked better for their regions.

Ned never treated Theon like a son. If Theon betrayed any Stark it was Robb. 

And Northmen are journeying hundreds of miles in a deadly winter to save "Ned's Girl" yet no Westernmen could get off their asses and save Tywin's daughter or their liege from imprisonment or humiliation. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Just now, John Doe said:

Ned Stark had three houses and Theon, wo he supposedly treated as a son, betraying him while Tywin had no single rebellion during the decades he ruled the Westerlands, and even now with no strong Lannister figure head there are no rebellions. It seems obvious whose method worked better for their regions.

The only house that was genuinely betraying him was the Boltons. I'll also give you Theon. But the Dustins and Ryswells (I assume they were your other two houses) were not betraying him. They might have been reluctant to commit forces to save him, but they only joined the Boltons when they were put on top of the North's hierarchy. And for all we know, Barbrey Dustin is secretly working against Roose Bolton.

[Lion of the West]

Tytos is by far the biggest failure, and if people want to piss on Tywin, remember that he became like he did because of Tytos inept characteristics.

Fact is that when Tywin died, House Lannister was stronger than it had ever been. It held a son, although a Baratheon, on the Iron Throne and has an alliance through that son with House Tyrell. All enemies of House Lannister are by that time either destroyed, dying or insigificant, while allied House has been placed to take command over the North, Riverlands and Vale (although to be honest I think that giving Littlefinger all this power will come back to bite the Lion ). So essentially only Stannis, dying of cold up north, the Iron Island and Dorne remains to threaten a Lannister+Tyrell alliance. The Lannisters may be hated by many, but so were the Targaryens after the Conquest, and the Lannisters actually stood on rather solid ground when Tywin took a bolt in the guts, and most importantly, before Tywin had time to consolidate King Tommen's rule over Westeros in the way that Kevan did and so forced Varys to murder Kevan because otherwise no force on this earth would be able to dislodge the Lannisters and Tyrells from court for at least a generation.

The big problem for Tywin is of course that he has not managed as well as he should as a parent but then again, the Baratheon brothers also broke down in the lack of parents to raise them, and I think that to a large degree the issue with Tywin's brood comes down to this lack. And while Tywin has certainly made his mistakes, I don't see why he should be held fully responsible for the mistakes of his children if Tytos is not held fully responsible for Tywin's lack of parenting skills. Equalling that Tytos should almost how you look at it come out worse than Tywin.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

7 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The big problem for Tywin is of course that he has not managed as well as he should as a parent but then again, the Baratheon brothers also broke down in the lack of parents to raise them.

I agree. But I also think the Baratheon brothers' downfall was their dislike and distrust of each other. If they'd loved each other and treated each other like real brothers, they would have been unstoppable. Robert's charisma and reputation, Stannis' intelligence and morality, Renly's guile and maneuvering, each one would have been able to keep the other two in check. Stannis would have imposed much-needed restraints on his brothers, Robert would have taught his brothers the value of mercy, and Renly would have been able to help his brothers navigate through the game of politics going on around them.

[Lion of the West]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I agree. But I also think the Baratheon brothers' downfall was their dislike and distrust of each other. If they'd loved each other and treated each other like real brothers, they would have been unstoppable. Robert's charisma and reputation, Stannis' intelligence and morality, Renly's guile and maneuvering, each one would have been able to keep the other two in check. Stannis would have imposed much-needed restraints on his brothers, Robert would have taught his brothers the value of mercy, and Renly would have been able to help his brothers navigate through the game of politics going on around them.

I pretty much agree with this. I just think that it was an absence of parents to raise and teach them to love each other and stick together as a family that caused them to have the relations they did.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

But the thing about Tytos is that he was regarded as a good man.

Who regarded him as a good man? You seem to be confusing being a pleasant person with being 'good'. Tytos was not good, he was an awful, awful ruler and the people of the Westerlands suffered as a result.

I honestly don't want to sound rude but the idea that telling jokes to others and wanting to be popular somehow makes you a good person is fucking ridiculous. The Smallfolk suffered because he did not want to be disliked. He was a Lord and had a responsibility to his smallfolk and he fucked up.

3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

Tywin seems to have resented Tytos' weakness, but Tytos is never recorded as being a cruel father. The worst thing he apparently did to his children was marry one of them off to a low-ranking man, and even then she seems to have made the best of her situation.

Didn't he send 10 year old Tygett off to fight in the Nine Penny Wars while he stayed at home?

Genna, Kevan don't exactly speak of their father in glowing terms. In fact Cersei and Jaime seem far more fond of Tywin than they do of Tytos.

Now Tywin may have been an asshole, certainly not the funnest person to be around but he was undoubtedly a great man. The Westerlands was far stronger when he took control (he took control a decade or so before he became its actual Lord) and even a year after his death it is still in better shape than when it was when Tytos misruled it. He was the youngest ever Hand, the second or third longest serving Hand. His first 20 years of 'rule' resulted in one of the longest and most prosperous periods of Westeros history. He made his daughter a Queen, his grandsons Kings. The Lannisters were as powerful and influnetial under Tywin than they have been at any times in the known history.

Like many people throughout (our own) history Tywin is not a nice person but it is beyond ridiculous calling him a failure. By this judgement many of the greatest figures throughout history would be called failures. He is certainly the most influential person from the Westerlands in the last three centuries.

[Humble Maester]

I guess the question of "who is the bigger failure" depends on what area of life. Though Tytos seems to win failing in pretty much everything.

If one is to blame Tywin for his children, then Tytos should of course be blamed for Tywin. Which of course makes this whole argument a bit silly, for Tywin's "bad parenting" would had been the fault of Tytos. Tytos seems to have had the strongest influence on Tywin (and Tywin on his other brothers) and on Genna, for obvious reasons. Tywin seemed to be a good but harsh father to Jaime and Cersei, who did not disappoint him, and extremely harsh father to Tyrion (partly because of Tywin's own assholery, and partly because Tyrion refused to fit the role Tywin had intended for him). One has to remember that a noble father has a fairly limited role in the rearing of his children, he has maesters and septas and all other kinds of servants to help him. Blaming Tywin for how Cersei and Jaime turned out to be is rather silly in my opinion, for Tytion's case there is a better argument. One has to remember Tywin was also away from the lives of his children for extensive periods of time as Hand. So in conclusion both fathers created at least one son who had serious issues with their fathers, at least Tywin did not end up killing Tytos though. It's a draw?

As politicians Tywin obviously wins. Tytos is likely the worst feudal lord we read of in all the series and background material (ok, maybe Maegor the Cruel or Aegon the Unworthy could compete for the title). Tywin was an excellent Hand of the King in a hostile environment (Aerys the Asshole) and his legacy (which his children unfortunately are ruining) would had been Lannister blood on the throne of the kingdom for generations to come and a strong united Westerlands. Tytos' best legacy was the creation of Tywin, I'd reckon. So Tywin wins the whole "being a lord" category, which truly is the one category the two compete in.

[Winter Rose Crown]

Tytos was a bad Lord. Tywin was a bad father

 

So, both. They're both worse.