Spoilers entire series: Who Cares How Jon is Ressurected...How Will it Change Him, and By How Much...Detailed Analysis

[drayrock]

I like the idea that the actual resurrection might be an accidental feat by melisandre. And there has been a lot of topics about how it will happen... but in reality who cares? 

Tons of ways it could happen, really up to George. Much harder to predict, so let's focus our efforts on the SO WHAT? (I personally think Jon will end up executing Melisandre for sacrificing Sheeren to bring him back and steel her "internal fire" for his flaming sword, though seems a bit crackpot but i'd like it)

Point being, it is of less concern to me how he is resurrected but more how he will be as a character/person upon being resurrected. The questions are:

1. How will he change?
2. How much will he change?

1. How will he change?

We can use everything we've seen about resurrections before...the person changes in a way that is directly correlated with their most recent emotional feeling, purpose, or obsession to make some determinations. 

Dondarion: On a mission for justice upon death and upon his resurrection became obsessed with this idea of bringing the King's justice to evil doer's more and more each time.  

Cat: Her last thoughts and purpose and emotional energy was all charged towards revenge as she slit the fool's throat. This shaped her existence upon resurrection. 

The Mountain: This one is looser. We're really going off of what the show has offered and a little bit of the books. But it seems to me he was fighting to protect house Lannister (poor Tyrion not considered house Lannister) and Cersei's brood in particular. He died doing this. Upon resurrection, from what we can see in the show and books his sole purpose of personal existance is now to protect Cersei and enemies of House Lannister. Basically a slave free of any personal thought or ambitions beyond that. 

They all lose something but gain a focus on their last purpose. 

What about Jon? What does this mean for his resurrection?

Let's grossly generalize and say he was obsessed with uniting the living against the dead prior to his death. To the point where he maroons many of his fellow watchmen with his openness with the Wildlings. I believe this will continue upon his resurrection but to a greater degree. Jon will go farther than he ever went before to achieve this goal. Before, Jon was always limited in how much he could unite the north, south, and wildlings against the dead by his vows, "he could take no part". This limited him from doing what truly needed to be done to bring the issue to the forefront, unite the bickering lords/kings and wildlings with the watch to fight the dead. This also means eliminating those that don't take this threat seriously or will slow down a united north/realm, mainly the boltons (generalizing). The new Jon will understand that he can't follow his vows to the letter of the law and will partake in the sourthern wars for the greater good of uniting and informing the realm of the real threat. Since none of the other leaders will take notice, he will take power so as to be the leader who will. The fact that he was planning to march south just before his death only further improves this line of reasoning.

So in resurrection, Jon will become Azor Ahai (the leader of the living against the dead), not necessarily because he's got a flaming sword or is some special dude, but solely because resurrection allowed him to let go of his "letter of the law" honor that so limited the perspective of him and his father (uncle for RLJ believers) before him. THIS is the part that changes, the part that Jon loses in death which will allow him to lead in a way Ned never did/could (passing the responsibility of leadership to Robert instead of taking it for himself as an example, though he knew he'd probably be a wiser ruler). Jon can now make his own decision's as for what is best for the realm not under the lense of the night's watch vows.

2. How much will he change? 

It can be argued that the changes to Jon above are for the best as long as he doesn't change TOO much. As long as he maintains his core and a sound mind he will be able to accomplish his goal of saving the realm more effectively. Let's go back to our examples to see if we can determine how much he will change.

Dondarrion: Didn't change too much initially. The only reason we can glean from the books is because he was resurrected so quickly. His intentions we're good before death (bringing justice) and his quick resurrection allowed him to maintain the core of what he was while he pursued these good intentions with renewed vigor and style/tactic. His resurrection, it can be argued, served his purpose for the better within renewed focus and a still sound mind. This is what we'd hope for Jon. Down the line, Beric loses some of this focus after countless resurrections showing it ain't good for the head to do it multiple times.

Cat: Complete opposite...was dead for much longer before being resurrected and I think it's fair to say has lost her ability to think rationally and has become a psychopath killer. Point remains that she has a focus, killing frey's and Lannister's, but to a degree that is not healthy (killing those not involved or loosely involved in the RW as if they were Tywin, Roose, or Walder themselves) A little yearning for revenge can be healthy perhaps but Cat's has dominated her to the core and changed who she is completely. This is not what we want for Jon if he's going to unite the living against the dead.

Robert Strong: Also dead (ish) for a long time. While the mountain is a little similar to his own self upon resurrection, in that his previous self was also a pretty savage and ruthless killer it's also fair to say he had a rational capability to a degree previously, that he has now lost. He's now a slave to House Lannister's wishes, as opposed to previously being a banner man doing his "duty".

What about Jon? 

Jon will maintain much of who he is. He will not change to the point that he is unrecognizable. He will be a rational leader through the long night. I think he will be more like Berric post his first resurrection. Without knowing how long he will be dead for, you might ask how can I be sure?

1.) His pre-death obsession with saving the living is a lot more noble of a cause (unlike Cat's and the Mountain's intentions which came from darker places upon their death such as revenge and a brutal killing of a man seeking justice)
2). While no doubt his body has died, he has something no one else in these examples has had...a vessel for maintaining himself to some degree, Ghost. This will help him maintain the core of his identity I believe. 
3) it will only happen once (hopefully)

Thoughts?

[wiseman]

nice angle, personally I think due to ghost he won't change much but it's nice to think about it this way

[Not a kneeler]

I hope this is true, but we can also see that those who were resurrected also exhibit some abnormality. I also have to include those who were or may have been resurrected by the Drowned god, Aeron, Patchface and possibly Davos. They all became single minded. I hope because Jon's soul was able to take refuge in Ghost, the effects will be lessened. He is essentially a good person, but I can see Jon losing his tight grip on his temper. Will his rage fall upon those who murdered him, or those who threaten the kingdom of men?

His purpose to protect the realm may remain, but his temperament may change.

[drayrock]

18 hours ago, wiseman said:

"nice angle, personally I think due to ghost he won't change much but it's nice to think about it this way"

I believe that George made a point with both Orell and Varyemere Six Skins (and even Bran to a degree) that while you can have a 2nd life as a warg through your animal...the animal is the dominant force and slowly but surely takes over again. I don't think he made this point just to give us some insight into wargs...I think it's supposed to hint also that warging can only preserve the identity of the human soul to a degree or for so long. So sure its better than just dying and being reborn, but there is still a cost on the identity/soul. I imagine he gave us this info with Jon in mind, hinting that he would be a changed man still, but not to the extreme degree as the other resurrections.

 

So I agree it will help, but I don't agree he'll just be the same dude, otherwise, why would he give us these hints and also what the hell was the point of killing him off. Night's Watch betrayal could have been actualized in other ways then such an extreme action if he was just going to come back and be the same old dude. Whether Jon's identity is not perfectly maintained because anyone that loses their human life loses a part of themselves or because he stays in Ghost for half a book or half a season is another point which we don't really have insight into.

[drayrock]

16 hours ago, Not a kneeler said:

I hope this is true, but we can also see that those who were resurrected also exhibit some abnormality. I also have to include those who were or may have been resurrected by the Drowned god, Aeron, Patchface and possibly Davos. They all became single minded. I hope because Jon's soul was able to take refuge in Ghost, the effects will be lessened. He is essentially a good person, but I can see Jon losing his tight grip on his temper. Will his rage fall upon those who murdered him, or those who threaten the kingdom of men?

His purpose to protect the realm may remain, but his temperament may change.

Interesting idea that Davos was ressurrected by the Drowned God, and becuase he didn't believe in this God, just didn't attribute it to that. That being said, I don't think he became single minded in the same way the others did. He was always of single purpose (loyalty to stannis) and that didn't change after the shipwreck or before. He has always had many minds as the reader is keen to from his POVs. 

The other two are definitely different IMO. IMO I don't see much of a change in Davos. I don't think Jon will just become this puppet (not the word) like Damphair or patchface. He'll maintain his humanity just get over his blind honor for the greater good.

I believe his rage will fall on those he believes threaten the realm of men by avoiding the real threat. That may or may not be his brothers that killed him, personally I think that will be sorted before he is resurrected him. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

5 hours ago, drayrock said:

"nice angle, personally I think due to ghost he won't change much but it's nice to think about it this way"

I believe that George made a point with both Orell and Varyemere Six Skins (and even Bran to a degree) that while you can have a 2nd life as a warg through your animal...the animal is the dominant force and slowly but surely takes over again. I don't think he made this point just to give us some insight into wargs...I think it's supposed to hint also that warging can only preserve the identity of the human soul to a degree or for so long. So sure its better than just dying and being reborn, but there is still a cost on the identity/soul. I imagine he gave us this info with Jon in mind, hinting that he would be a changed man still, but not to the extreme degree as the other resurrections.

 

So I agree it will help, but I don't agree he'll just be the same dude, otherwise, why would he give us these hints and also what the hell was the point of killing him off. Night's Watch betrayal could have been actualized in other ways then such an extreme action if he was just going to come back and be the same old dude. Whether Jon's identity is not perfectly maintained because anyone that loses their human life loses a part of themselves or because he stays in Ghost for half a book or half a season is another point which we don't really have insight into.

Exactly, it's the first rule in writing well maybe not first. "You put a challenge in front of your character. They get through/over/past it." "How does that change them?" 

To be honest I don't have a clue how he will change. I like to believe that "the chosen one" is the red herring but if he is AAR I'm nervous(as this is what my gut is telling me) he will stop being a POV character after his REBIRTH. His actions and his saving of the world will be seen through other POVs.

All in all I like to believe he didn't die and doesn't need rebirth. However, "How does that change him" still applies. And I like to believe he will be harder on people in his way. He's got to get sh** done and the world is not big enough for bigotry and stupid.

[drayrock]

12 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Exactly, it's the first rule in writing well maybe not first. "You put a challenge in front of your character. They get through/over/past it." "How does that change them?" 

To be honest I don't have a clue how he will change. I like to believe that "the chosen one" is the red herring but if he is AAR I'm nervous(as this is what my gut is telling me) he will stop being a POV character after his REBIRTH. His actions and his saving of the world will be seen through other POVs.

All in all I like to believe he didn't die and doesn't need rebirth. However, "How does that change him" still applies. And I like to believe he will be harder on people in his way. He's got to get sh** done and the world is not big enough for bigotry and stupid.

Agreed. I just think the death will be and resurrection will be part of that change because it is a fantasy world. LIke he will remember the old self and the actions and because of that will be stricter but it will be aided by a change in his identity by being resurrected as well 

I also think the chosen one stuff is like all prochecies. It's fun for a medieval nordic kinda thing but in the end it won't be some special powers that make him the chosen one (other than perhaps the burning sword, but again this is fantasy and I believe the way he gets the sword of fire will be indicative of who he is as a person, ie hw ill kill melsiandre after bringing him back because it is the just thing to do for burning a child), it will be his choices as a person and actions combined with where he came from and how that shaped his view of the world. 

I.e.:
-He got over himself and all his stark pride after he realized the main threat and stayed to fight. Didn't go south to fight with Robb.
-He will no longer be honorable to a fault which in a way is its own form of being selfish. Ned's honor was good but it got to a point where he cared more about legacy and honor than what might actually have been best to a degree. Took it to far and in a way that is selfish. 
-He wasn't blind to bigotry and was compassionate toward the wildlings. THis is largely becuase he was an outsider as a bastard.
-He is always training hard, never lax. Knows he must work hard ot be a warrior. 
-His being on the outside of all things royalty gave him a view of both worlds which equipped him to be the leader through the long night uniting both wildlings, tribes, and traditional lords.

e is observant in the way others like Jaime and Robb just can't be...so him being a bastard ironically prepared him to be the leader and perhaps king they realm will need. This is hinted at in the first chapter with Bran when they disover the direwolves and he notices Ghost is the only one whose eyes were opened of all the pups. Gave me shivers re-reading that. 
 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

10 hours ago, drayrock said:

Agreed. I just think the death will be and resurrection will be part of that change because it is a fantasy world. LIke he will remember the old self and the actions and because of that will be stricter but it will be aided by a change in his identity by being resurrected as well 

I also think the chosen one stuff is like all prochecies. It's fun for a medieval nordic kinda thing but in the end it won't be some special powers that make him the chosen one (other than perhaps the burning sword, but again this is fantasy and I believe the way he gets the sword of fire will be indicative of who he is as a person, ie hw ill kill melsiandre after bringing him back because it is the just thing to do for burning a child), it will be his choices as a person and actions combined with where he came from and how that shaped his view of the world. 

I.e.:
-He got over himself and all his stark pride after he realized the main threat and stayed to fight. Didn't go south to fight with Robb.
-He will no longer be honorable to a fault which in a way is its own form of being selfish. Ned's honor was good but it got to a point where he cared more about legacy and honor than what might actually have been best to a degree. Took it to far and in a way that is selfish. 
-He wasn't blind to bigotry and was compassionate toward the wildlings. THis is largely becuase he was an outsider as a bastard.
-He is always training hard, never lax. Knows he must work hard ot be a warrior. 
-His being on the outside of all things royalty gave him a view of both worlds which equipped him to be the leader through the long night uniting both wildlings, tribes, and traditional lords.

e is observant in the way others like Jaime and Robb just can't be...so him being a bastard ironically prepared him to be the leader and perhaps king they realm will need. This is hinted at in the first chapter with Bran when they disover the direwolves and he notices Ghost is the only one whose eyes were opened of all the pups. Gave me shivers re-reading that. 
 

I like how you said he is observant because I feel that was a character trait he was meant to have but kind of fell at the hip side.

Quote

Even at fourteen, Jon could see through her smile. -Jon 1 GoTs 

Quote

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.” -Jon 1 GoTs 

But his Caesar moment happened because he missed the signs or flat out ignored them.

[drayrock]

I would say its more an inability to internalize the fact that some ppl would stoop so low as mutiny. That his honor is not universal. I do believe you're right, it has slipped, I wish GRRM would put s focus on that again, it was great build up in the GOT but he's still great at reading and assessing ppl, I think you see that with tormund, Val, mance, and stannis

[Mehmet Eren]

The point for me In the book I believe 100 % Bran will involve in Jon coming back Jon being warg and basicly Bran his brother who they love and help each other also I dont know seven kingdom or the north who will be the king but If you are warg skinchanger vs/ your king and god is brandon stark so bran holds too power to protect and prepare Jon soul&mind jon coming back with help of bran jon will be okey think I dont know is after learing about his father via bran which name he will choose Targ or Stark my guts tell me jon will take name Stark 

[drayrock]

On 4/25/2016 at 8:13 PM, Mehmet Eren said:

The point for me In the book I believe 100 % Bran will involve in Jon coming back Jon being warg and basicly Bran his brother who they love and help each other also I dont know seven kingdom or the north who will be the king but If you are warg skinchanger vs/ your king and god is brandon stark so bran holds too power to protect and prepare Jon soul&mind jon coming back with help of bran jon will be okey think I dont know is after learing about his father via bran which name he will choose Targ or Stark my guts tell me jon will take name Stark 

The idea that Jon will commune with Bran again is interesting...That'd be cool. Just tough tos ee because Bran seems to have a long way to go before he controls his powers.

[Clash]

On 23/4/2016 at 2:24 PM, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

But his Caesar moment happened because he missed the signs or flat out ignored them.

I think he was well aware of his enemies and believed he was being careful. But the way he was betrayed was done very carefully too. Using Olly and Benjen as lures was very clever really.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

1 hour ago, Clash said:

I think he was well aware of his enemies and believed he was being careful. But the way he was betrayed was done very carefully too. Using Olly and Benjen as lures was very clever really.

That's the show. And that was done with the "idiot ball" so no cleverness there.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Unfortunately for this discussion, the WAY in which he is resurrected will have a big influence on how it changes him.

What we do know is that the end result of his resurrection from a psychological point of view, will be that the boy will be killed, and the man will be born. That forshadowing from Maester Aemon was put there for a reason. So the resurrected Jon will be harder, more ruthless, more willing to make hard decisions, possibly less sentinmental.

In this he will incorporate the lessons from Quorin Halfhand: "What matters our honor, if the fate of the Realm is at stake". So expect him to care less about honorable actions  and become more like the Starks of old. Think the hints we have of Theon "the Hungry Wolf" Stark, or Brandon Ice Eyes. Men who were goal focused to the point of lacking mercy, and had a lot of blood on their hands by the end.

I don't think he will be a shell of human, like Beric or Catelyn. Because I don't think he will be resurrected by R'hlorr. His resurrection will be a combination of Bran and maybe some fire magic. Because, his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

[MMAJim]

I agree that the change will be in the focus and maturation category. Everything has been set for there to be concern by the reader due to other resurrections. However, Aemon's cold preservation and the warging properties pretty much ensure that both Jon's mind and body should be in proper form.

[drayrock]

14 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

That's the show. And that was done with the "idiot ball" so no cleverness there.

Yeah i think he wasn't careful enough but that was more because of the loyalty the Night's Watch has traditionally showed over the ages to the selection of Lord Commander and his decisions. I believe he was incapable of reall believing their betrayal would go to the point of murdering him (perhaps a wilding or a giant, but he is a son of winterfell and a brother). 

[drayrock]

13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Unfortunately for this discussion, the WAY in which he is resurrected will have a big influence on how it changes him.

What we do know is that the end result of his resurrection from a psychological point of view, will be that the boy will be killed, and the man will be born. That forshadowing from Maester Aemon was put there for a reason. So the resurrected Jon will be harder, more ruthless, more willing to make hard decisions, possibly less sentinmental.

In this he will incorporate the lessons from Quorin Halfhand: "What matters our honor, if the fate of the Realm is at stake". So expect him to care less about honorable actions  and become more like the Starks of old. Think the hints we have of Theon "the Hungry Wolf" Stark, or Brandon Ice Eyes. Men who were goal focused to the point of lacking mercy, and had a lot of blood on their hands by the end.

I don't think he will be a shell of human, like Beric or Catelyn. Because I don't think he will be resurrected by R'hlorr. His resurrection will be a combination of Bran and maybe some fire magic. Because, his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Great quotes that i had forgotten about. Really does back it up. 

Also, I didn't think about how melisandre could be just this red herring and that Bran could resurrect Jon...The more I think about the more I think it very much is George. The only gaping hole here to me is that Bran is so far away from being ready to do that in the books...but for all we know in the books Jon could be dead for half a year...

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 minutes ago, drayrock said:

Great quotes that i had forgotten about. Really does back it up. 

Also, I didn't think about how melisandre could be just this red herring and that Bran could resurrect Jon...The more I think about the more I think it very much is George. The only gaping hole here to me is that Bran is so far away from being ready to do that in the books...but for all we know in the books Jon could be dead for half a year...

Well, we don't actually know how far Bran has come. Initially the plan was obviously for a 5 year training period. During the planned 5 year gap. When that idea was cancelled, Martin had to rework a lot of his plot. We see hints of where 5 years had been reduced to one, or less.

Littlefinger tells Sansa that he thought it would take Cersei 5 years to destroy King's Landing with her incompetence, but it was taking far less than he dreamed. Similarly, when Bran askes Bloodraven how long it would take to become a greenseer, Bloodraven answers something to the effect of: "Maybe 5 years, maybe 1, it is difficult to predict." Clearly Martin's original plan was for 5 years. But now by necessity it is going to be less than 1.

We have already seen in Bran's last chapter that he notices a significant number of phases of the moon come and go and repeat again. Was it 5 or 6 months that were mentioned there? I'm thinking that his training is going to be complete soon. Since time flows differently for the eternal weirwood trees, Martin has a ready explanation, which is that Bran could spend one day merged with the tree, but could have experienced 8000 years of weirwood memories in that time.

So he has a lot of flexibility in the case of Bran. Less in the case of Arya's training. And very little in the case of the growth of Daenerys's Dragons. Clearly the 5 year gap was meant to address the development of all these characters' power. But in Dany's case, the Dragon growth really cannot be speeded up in a plausible way. So the Dragons are not going to be of devastating size when she arrives. They will barely be 3 years old, after all, when she arrives in Westeros.

Sansa's arc too presents some problems, given that her path to power almost certainly goes through some sexual manipulation, and the lack of the 5 year gap means she simply is too young to do that realistically. But I guess Martin is going to be forced to just push through on that front.

Bran's development is the easiest to fit in with the timeline.

[drayrock]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, we don't actually know how far Bran has come. Initially the plan was obviously for a 5 year training period. During the planned 5 year gap.

When that idea was cancelled, Martin had to rework a lot of his plot. We see hints of where he hinted that 5 years had been reduced to 1, or less.

Littlefinger tells Sansa that he thought it would take Cersei 5 years to destroy King's Landing with her incompetence, but it was taking far less than he dreamed. Similarly, when Bran askes Bloodraven how long it would take to become a greenseer, Bloodraven answers something to the effect of: "Maybe 5 years, maybe 1, it is difficult to predict." Clearly Martin's original plan was for 5 years. But now by necessity it is going to be less than 1.

We have already seen in Bran's last chapter that he notices a significant number of phases of the moon come and go and repeat again. Was it 5 or 6 months that were mentioned there? I'm thinking that his training is going to be complete soon. Since time flows differently for the eternal weirwood trees, Martin has a ready explanation, which is that Bran could spend one day merged with the tree, but could have experienced 8000 years of weirwood memories in that time.

So he has a lot of flexibility in the case of Bran. Less in the case of Arya's training. And very little in the case of the growth of Daenerys's Dragons. Clearly the 5 year gap was meant to address the development of all these characters' power. But in Dany's case, the Dragon growth really cannot be speeded up in a plausible way. So the Dragons are not going to be of devastating size when she arrives. They will barely be 3 years old, after all, when she arrives in Westeros.

Sansa's arc too presents some problems, given that her path to power almost certainly goes through some sexual manipulation, and the lack of the 5 year gap means she simply is too young to do that realistically. But I guess Martin is going to be forced to just push through on that front.

Bran's development is the easiest to fit in with the timeline.

agreed. so you think Melisandre is quite literally a red herrign as far as the resurrection goes? That it will be Bran?

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, drayrock said:

agreed. so you think Melisandre is quite literally a red herrign as far as the resurrection goes? That it will be Bran?

I don't know. I certainly don't think that Jon is just going to be resurrected like another Beric or Catelyn. He won't be un-Jon. His resurrection will be one of the turning points of the entire series. It will be more unique.

I am convinced that we will see a fulfilment of the prophecy of two or three Kings' death need to raise a dragon, with Jon being the dragon. But this is not a spell that is unique to Fire Magic. Because it is not Fire Magic. It is Blood Magic, ultimately, which powers all magic, whether it be the power of a Shadowbinder from Asshai or the power of the Children of the Forest. It is all powered by the life force in the blood of living things.

And the more powerful the spell you need, the more powerful the blood sacrifice needs to be. Note that the greenseers sacrificed 1000 Children of the Forest on the Isle of Faces to power the spell needed for the Hammer of the Waters. So the idea that only death can pay for life, only blood can pay for magical power, is an old one, common to all magic in the Ice and Fire universe.

So I think Jon will be resurrected by having some powerful blood magic take place. King's blood indeed seems to carry more power than normal blood. So I would be looking for some likely Kings to be sacrificed to raise the most important King of them all from the dead.

Candidates with King's Blood abound. Just in the North, we have Stannis, Shireen, Theon and Mance. I expect one or more of them to be sacrificed in front of a Heart Tree to raise Jon from the midst of his pyre. Thus combining the magic of the Old Gods with that of Mellisandre. Giving truth to the prophecy that his (Jon's) is the Song of Ice and Fire.