Heresy 184

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

that's a fair point but as the view is incomplete, it has not stopped us to draw hundreds of conclusions and quite often contradictory.

 

some do indeed, others are victims of glamour such as Jon seeing Mance burn: ' Men see what they expect to see '

They do 'look without seeing."  and part of the reason for this is their conditioning.

 

 

 

It is true the view is incomplete but incomplete or not some people will remain in the dark because they will not see.Now we could argue why that is ad they are many reason;manipulation by others through magical mean or no,or internal and external biases.

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Speaking of the mummer's version, I saw validation for my wheel of time inversion theory, namely:

 

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what Bloodraven said to Bran:

“It’s beautiful beneath the sea, but if you stay too long you’ll drown.” (Or something to that effect.)

“I wasn’t drowning,” Bran shoots back. “I was home.”

These last few months I have been asserting that a squeaky iron hinge has been opened resulting in a mirrored effect for the wheel of time upon Westeros. The Iron Islands are now reflecting Dragonstone, and the Greyjoys and Targaryens have switched places. Aemon and Bloodraven were at the Wall and the religion of the Ironborn is now upon the north. The Drowned God now resides beyond the Wall, the north is now the sea and its upside down. The Nights Watch are Drowned Men, and Jon Snow has just been resuscitated by the cold air rising.

 

 

I haven't seen the episode but that quotation by BR which echoes something Patchface said seems to be a caution against succuming to the enticements of visions.Dany was similarly tempted in the HOTU,but that's a far leap from Westeros being flipped because some hinge is open.

Another question i haven't had time to peruse the site(s) to find out what happened but from what i gather Jon Snow is back and what the "coldwinds" raised him? Hahah validation for my "cold theory' if that is true though i'll wait for the books to see if that works itself in there.

42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

We shall see!  I am declaring this now that as a man of the Nights Watch, Jon was a drowned man and that he was resuscitated by the cold air, with no ice or fire magic involved. This would confirm several things:

1) Recall Elenei, daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind who married the first Storm Lord Duran Godsgrief. This may be a clue that Jon's father was Robert Baratheon, also a Storm Lord, aka the Smiling Knight, the Smith, and the Thief that stole the Moonmaid.

2) The hinge is indeed open. The religion of the Ironborn now applies to the north, which is underwater. The Nights Watch are all Drowned Men and subject to the Drowned God whose followers can be resuscitated by the goddess of the wind.

3) The wind, therefore is a separate magical entity.

...I am waiting with baited breath for next week's episode, looking for more validation!

Nahhh the cold winds aren't a separate entity...The same entity is "using" it to raise the ice wignts, Beric,the stone men etc. There is no ice magic or fire magic or wind magic which have nothing to do with raising the dead.Its just Greenseer(s) are riding the winds baby

If the show did allude to the Coldwinds raising Jon,then i'd be concern if  it is Jon in his body.

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Just as an aside, I remain interested by the fact [!] that while much is said and expected of ancient prophecies and magic from Asshai, the language of choice for those using magicks, such as Moqorro doing strange and interesting things to Victarion's arm and a certain priestess working on someone else, appears to be High Valyrian rather than whatever it is they speak way out east.

An interesting remark, and probably worth pursuing. But Melisandre's the oddball, here. She's the only one magic user I recall to use both High Valyrian and the language of Asshai in her rituals.

(as an aside, I'm suddenly unsure whether the word "Asshai'i" ever refers to the language of Asshai. Is it only used with reference to the people?)

Anyway. High Valyrian is clearly the language of the Red Temple and its priests. Bloodmages and shadowbinders are the ones who speak/sing the language of Asshai. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

10 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

(As an aside, I'm suddenly unsure whether the word "Asshai'i" ever refers to the language of Asshai. Is it only used with reference to the people?)

Ran some searches, and answered this question for myself. The word Asshai'i refers only to the people of Asshai. The language is referred to as "the speech" or "the tongue" of Asshai.

I wonder if we might eventually discover that "Asshai" itself has some translatable meaning. ...  

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It is true the view is incomplete but incomplete or not some people will remain in the dark because they will not see.Now we could argue why that is ad they are many reason;manipulation by others through magical mean or no,or internal and external biases.

I haven't seen the episode but that quotation by BR which echoes something Patchface said seems to be a caution against succuming to the enticements of visions.Dany was similarly tempted in the HOTU,but that's a far leap from Westeros being flipped because some hinge is open.

Another question i haven't had time to peruse the site(s) to find out what happened but from what i gather Jon Snow is back and what the "coldwinds" raised him? Hahah validation for my "cold theory' if that is true though i'll wait for the books to see if that works itself in there.

Nahhh the cold winds aren't a separate entity...The same entity is "using" it to raise the ice wignts, Beric,the stone men etc. There is no ice magic or fire magic or wind magic which have nothing to do with raising the dead.Its just Greenseer(s) are riding the winds baby

If the show did allude to the Coldwinds raising Jon,then i'd be concern if  it is Jon in his body.

 

1) echoes something Patchface said:

Yeah, Patchface is famous for his sayings about how the north is upside down and under water:

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Fool’s blood. King’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye.

Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish.

In the dark the dead are dancing. I know, I know, oh oh oh.

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.

The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

 

2) some hinge is open:

Melisandre says the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world. A hinge is something that holds a door, and wards sometimes involve the use of iron. The descriptive word "squeaky" implies that something is very old and rusted. In The Drowned Man, AFFC Chapter 19, Aeron Damphair associates Euron with a squeaky iron hinge, and he is very afraid of this memory. It is possible that Damphair witnessed Euron doing "something" in order to open a hinge. Blood sacrifice is a recognized requirement when weaving some magics, and it may also be required when unraveling a spell. The iron that Damphair associates with a squeaky hinge symbolizes that the hinge was warded.

 

3) Nahhh the cold winds aren't a separate entity:

Wind is arguably a stronger element than either ice or fire or water. It brings life to all the other three, and can turn all three deadly. Wind lowers temperatures making it easier to make ice. Wind breaths life into flames. Wind moves the waves of water.

[Mace Cooterian]

5 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Hm. Not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that if Ned had been the KotLT, then he should have told the story to his kids because it's entertaining? 

I'd guess Ned was the KotLT, and Lyanna talked him into it. Lyanna's involvement would weigh the story down a bit. Make it less "jolly," and less likely to be retold at Winterfell - particularly if the episode played some part in precipitating later events.

Overall, I think Ned is the most sensible candidate for the KotLT. But regardless - it's a well-constructed, nicely ambiguous little mystery. And clearly it can be argued various ways.

"Snowfyre" don't take this as directed towards you...you just happen to be the last who made reference to the KotLT.

I've always considered the KotLT to be in the "red herring" category and that it was the events prior to Lyanna's "kidnapping", the Stark's rescue mission, the Mad King's implosion, etc., etc.  With that being said, I'm unclear as to whomever was the mystery knight, what significance does that has on who Jon Snow's parentage is?  I'm speculating that Jon's significance is important to the overall story direction.

ETA...If I'm keeping up on recent posts the odds on favorite is Ned, rather than Lyanna, or the crannogman.  For me...I'm not seeing the importance, and hence...red herring.

Perhaps next weeks episode of the mummer's version and the return to the tower of joy will give us pause and clarity....if that is at all possible.

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

[The Dragon has three heads]

 

SPOLIERS EP2

I really wanted to see the ruby 'activate' to call Jon back or something.  It's left me with a lot of unanswered questions.

could the wall itself have enough power to call Jon out of ghost?

 

major book spoilers regardless but no REASON he came back.

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

If the show did allude to the Coldwinds raising Jon,then i'd be concern if  it is Jon in his body.

 

it didn't

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

 

Anyway. High Valyrian is clearly the language of the Red Temple and its priests.

In itself this remains interesting given Benero's clearly expressed hostility towards the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the Black Walls

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

"Snowfyre" don't take this as directed towards you...you just happen to be the last who made reference to the KotLT.

I've always considered the KotLT to be in the "red herring" category and that it was the events prior to Lyanna's "kidnapping", the Stark's rescue mission, the Mad King's implosion, etc., etc.  With that being said, I'm unclear as to whomever was the mystery knight, what significance does that has on who Jon Snow's parentage is?  I'm speculating that Jon's significance is important to the overall story direction.

ETA...If I'm keeping up on recent posts the odds on favorite is Ned, rather than Lyanna, or the crannogman.  For me...I'm not seeing the importance, and hence...red herring.

Perhaps next weeks episode of the mummer's version and the return to the tower of joy will give us pause and clarity....if that is at all possible.

Inquiring minds want to know!!!

 My mind entirely. Lyanna has already figured in the story and I think the knight is simply a continuation of her being characterised as less than demure and ladylike, but beyond that I very much doubt there's a deeper significance whether Ned is substituted as the preferred candidate or not.

As to the mummer's version, a character who appears to be Ser Arthur Dayne has been very prominent in the trailers

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

 

SPOLIERS EP2

I really wanted to see the ruby 'activate' to call Jon back or something.  It's left me with a lot of unanswered questions.

could the wall itself have enough power to call Jon out of ghost?

 

major book spoilers regardless but no REASON he came back.

 

Something we've discussed a lot in the past is that magick appears to be magick, its just what you do with it, and the Wall is full of magick.

Apologies for the multiple posts but the site was acting up last night [overload?] and I had trouble egaging in conversation.

[The Dragon has three heads]

37 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Something we've discussed a lot in the past is that magick appears to be magick, its just what you do with it, and the Wall is full of magick.

Apologies for the multiple posts but the site was acting up last night [overload?] and I had trouble egaging in conversation.

And that's just it, I can't justify or be ok with just "magick" being the answer BC haha

i need an explanation, I need a reason And "cause magick" is not good enough! 

long distance warging, mind control, technology that presents as magick, cool, can buy that, but not the d and d type.  If I wanted that I would still be reading FR novels.

GRRM in all his work is far more nuanced than that.  I am hoping in vain for an explanation that is satisfying or will blood magic be it? 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

And that's just it, I can't justify or be ok with just "magick" being the answer BC haha

i need an explanation, I need a reason And "cause magick" is not good enough! 

long distance warging, mind control, technology that presents as magick, cool, can buy that, but not the d and d type.  If I wanted that I would still be reading FR novels.

GRRM in all his work is far more nuanced than that.  I am hoping in vain for an explanation that is satisfying or will blood magic be it? 

 

I have posited before that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Howland with a bit of extra help from Ned. Howland prayed to the old gods for a way for him to win. He didn't pray for a champion, and as Meera said even the little crannogman had pride. He prayed for a way for himself to win. The fact that he stayed in Ned's tent suggests, at least to me, that Ned may have skin changed Howland and together they made a knight, similar to the idea Bran had of combining his skills with Hodor's strength. Howland would still get to participate, but he would benefit from Ned's skills and speak with Ned's booming voice.

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

7 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

With that being said, I'm unclear as to whomever was the mystery knight, what significance does that has on who Jon Snow's parentage is?  I'm speculating that Jon's significance is important to the overall story direction.

ETA...If I'm keeping up on recent posts the odds on favorite is Ned, rather than Lyanna, or the crannogman.  For me...I'm not seeing the importance, and hence...red herring.

No, I'm with you on that. The KotLT is a fun little puzzle. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Jon Snow's parentage.

In the books, anyway. I'm still not watching the show.  No telling what they'll do on the teevee.

[Matthew.]

11 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

I've always considered the KotLT to be in the "red herring" category and that it was the events prior to Lyanna's "kidnapping", the Stark's rescue mission, the Mad King's implosion, etc., etc.  With that being said, I'm unclear as to whomever was the mystery knight, what significance does that has on who Jon Snow's parentage is?  I'm speculating that Jon's significance is important to the overall story direction.

If the KotLT is Ned, there is no significance beyond a son of Winterfell protecting a vassal, no reason really to even treat it as a mystery. If the KotLT is Howland Reed, then Meera's entire story takes on the tone of a moral fable--which I suppose is true in any case. If the KotLT is Lyanna, then it could relate to Jon's parentage, if Jon's father is Howland, Rhaegar, or even Arthur Dayne; for the former, the significance is straightforward, for the latter two it's the sort of thing that might capture their imagination and admiration.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

And that's just it, I can't justify or be ok with just "magick" being the answer BC haha

i need an explanation, I need a reason And "cause magick" is not good enough! 

long distance warging, mind control, technology that presents as magick, cool, can buy that, but not the d and d type.  If I wanted that I would still be reading FR novels.

GRRM in all his work is far more nuanced than that.  I am hoping in vain for an explanation that is satisfying or will blood magic be it? 

Ah, but as I said its not a question of "just magick" but the using of it. Mel was able to perform a bit of magick she didn't know she could do not because she was clever but because the magick was there to be tapped and worked by her into a particular spell. 

[Melifeather]

I agree that magic is magic, and I don't claim to know how magic is supposed to be in the real world, but in GRRM's world I believe he meant for ice and fire magic to be different. It was the Others that abused ice magic and the Children that turned to fire magic to try to counter it. I can see how certain elements may remain the same, such as the use of blood, hair, nails, or bone, but they are different since ice preserves and fire consumes. Thus we have white shadows that retain their shape until the spell is broken via obsidian, and black shadows that dissipate quickly. It remains to be seen if you can fight off a black shadow using obsidian, but I would expect a weapon aligned with ice would work better.

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

In the books, anyway. I'm still not watching the show.  No telling what they'll do on the teevee.

The mummers version is indeed their own but there are some things too big to mess with - like the manner of accomplishing a certain event.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The mummers version is indeed their own but there are some things too big to mess with - like the manner of accomplishing a certain event.

Would that be the event of the KotLT, or the event of Lyanna Stark's pregnancy?  In either case, I expect a man was involved. But in neither case would I be sure the mummers tell the same story Martin does. Especially in the case of Lyanna's pregnancy... I'm not even convinced they know Martin's story. Seems more likely to me that Martin held his answer back, and cut them loose to provide their own answer.  Should be interesting to see (or, in my case, to read about) what they come up with! 

 

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thus we have white shadows that retain their shape until the spell is broken via obsidian, and black shadows that dissipate quickly. It remains to be seen if you can fight off a black shadow using obsidian, but I would expect a weapon aligned with ice would work better.

Interesting, though, that both the white shadows and the black shadows are accompanied by intense drops in temperature, when they arrive on the scene. Things get colder when the Others show up. And things get colder when the shadow slays Renly.  Samesies.

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Would that be the event of the KotLT, or the event of Lyanna Stark's pregnancy?  In either case, I expect a man was involved. But in neither case would I be sure the mummers tell the same story Martin does. Especially in the case of Lyanna's pregnancy... I'm not even convinced they know Martin's story. Seems more likely to me that Martin held his answer back, and cut them loose to provide their own answer.  Should be interesting to see (or, in my case, to read about) what they come up with! 

 

Interesting, though, that both the white shadows and the black shadows are accompanied by intense drops in temperature, when they arrive on the scene. Things get colder when the Others show up. And things get colder when the shadow slays Renly.  Samesies.

"Samesies" lol

They're both shadows, which is the absence of light. They both mean death with the loss of life and bodily warmth.

The point I was trying to make is that it appears you need an opposing element to break the spell. Obsidian is "frozen fire" and that is why it works on ice shadows. I wonder if you could kill a fire shadow with an icicle? That'd be cool. Har!

[Melifeather]

I've just had a thought about wights and drowned men. Going off the premise that the north is underwater and anyone that dies is said to have drowned. When someone literally drowns, they can be resuscitated by providing CPR. Sometimes they cannot be revived. There's many variables, like length of time without air, temperature of the water, and the age of the drowner. The common denominator between wights and drowned men is life giving air, only for the wights it's like they're on life support. Remove the air and they cannot move again. They aren't truly resurrected, because there's not much of their spirit left. Only the memories remain in the bones. It's kind of like using electricity to shock the nerves of a cadaver. They will still move, but they're not alive.