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Heresy 184


Black Crow

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52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

"Samesies" lol

:D

 

52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

They're both shadows, which is the absence of light. They both mean death with the loss of life and bodily warmth.

it appears you need an opposing element to break the spell. Obsidian is "frozen fire" and that is why it works on ice shadows. I wonder if you could kill a fire shadow with an icicle?

I get it, sorta. It's just that - the more I think about it, the less sure I am what the "elements" are.  Or, more specifically... why the elements involved with these shadows are "ice" and "fire."

What's the difference between an "ice shadow," and a "fire shadow?"

 

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1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Would that be the event of the KotLT, or the event of Lyanna Stark's pregnancy?  In either case, I expect a man was involved. But in neither case would I be sure the mummers tell the same story Martin does. Especially in the case of Lyanna's pregnancy... I'm not even convinced they know Martin's story. Seems more likely to me that Martin held his answer back, and cut them loose to provide their own answer.  Should be interesting to see (or, in my case, to read about) what they come up with! 

Nah a bit more fundamental than either: I'm referring to the raising of Jon Snow in a very low key fashion which doesn't involve funeral pyres or any of the other pro-Targaryen fantasies we've been subjected to in another place; so low key and relatively logical in fact that I find it very convincing as a representation of what GRRM actually has in mind

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46 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

 

What's the difference between an "ice shadow," and a "fire shadow?"

 

Well we're told that Ice preserves and Fire consumes. It could be something similar to that in Ice holding the cold, while a Fire shadow doesn't of itself "make" the air cold in the way that Ice does, but it sucks in or consumes any heat.

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1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

:D

 

I get it, sorta. It's just that - the more I think about it, the less sure I am what the "elements" are.  Or, more specifically... why the elements involved with these shadows are "ice" and "fire."

What's the difference between an "ice shadow," and a "fire shadow?"

 

While both are assassins, they are also both created by someone else. They don't make themselves. A living source is needed and some sacrifice is involved. But they are more different than just cooking a chocolate cake versus a vanilla one. The one cast by fire magic cannot keep it's shape for long. It gets the job done and then dissipates...one use only and then you have to make another one. The one cast by ice can keep it's figure as long as it's cold and dark enough, or as long as it can keep away from an obsidian blade. I wonder if it has to hide out in a dark cave when the sun is out? The white shadow wasn't all that concerned about fire either, and you'd think that fire would melt ice, but it seems they can put the flame out by simply getting...colder.

Both versions bring death. They're not made to be helpful unless you're on the originating side.

Ooh, I almost forgot. We're meant to associate the white shadows with the moon... they reflect the light of the moon. In this way they are still a shadow cast by a light source.

Edited to add: and wasn't Renly killed in the morning? Fire cast shadows likely need daylight to move around.

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11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The mummers version is indeed their own but there are some things too big to mess with - like the manner of accomplishing a certain event.

Does the central threat of the story qualify as "too big to mess with?" Because the central threat in the show is some guy called the Night's King who wears a uniform that's reminiscent of the NW uniform, raises the dead en masse as his servants, and converts Craster's sons into white walkers on an altar of ice beneath the curtain of light at the end of the world--without a weirwood in sight.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Well we're told that Ice preserves and Fire consumes. It could be something similar to that in Ice holding the cold, while a Fire shadow doesn't of itself "make" the air cold in the way that Ice does, but it sucks in or consumes any heat.

Admittedly, I'm no scientist. And neither is Martin, I suppose.  But don't those sorta boil down to the same thing in the end? Heat transfers toward equilibrium. So magical causes notwithstanding, I'd imagine that what "produces" cold is also "consuming" heat.

I don't know. Sounds "mechanical," this stuff. I hesitate to wander too far down this road.

 

51 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The one cast by fire magic cannot keep it's shape for long. It gets the job done and then dissipates...one use only and then you have to make another one. The one cast by ice can keep it's figure as long as it's cold and dark enough, or as long as it can keep away from an obsidian blade. I wonder if it has to hide out in a dark cave when the sun is out?

Well, I think perhaps you answered my question with the underlined phrases. :)  The fire shadow is "cast by fire," while the ice shadow is "cast by ice," is that it?  That points to a difference in origin.  (And I'm curious to know how we picture ice casting a shadow.)

Is there also a difference in their natures? Or, as shadows, are they essentially the same?  

For example, is the fire shadow unable to "keep it's shape for long" because it's a fire shadow?  Or, like the ice shadow, if it were "cold and dark enough," would it have more success?

In other words: Is the ability (or inability) to "keep it's shape" and resist dissipation, (1) a function of the shadow's nature (ice shadow vs. fire shadow) ... or is it (2) a function of it's environment (warm/cold surrounds)?

 

28 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Does the central threat of the story qualify as "too big to mess with?" Because the central threat in the show is some guy called the Night's King who wears a uniform that's reminiscent of the NW uniform, raises the dead en masse as his servants, and converts Craster's sons into white walkers on an altar of ice beneath the curtain of light at the end of the world--without a weirwood in sight.

Ser Gnarly Nail, I presume?  Yeah, I'm not watching the show, but I guarantee you that guy's not in the books.  :P

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54 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Admittedly, I'm no scientist. And neither is Martin, I suppose.  But don't those sorta boil down to the same thing in the end? Heat transfers toward equilibrium. So magical causes notwithstanding, I'd imagine that what "produces" cold is also "consuming" heat.

I don't know. Sounds "mechanical," this stuff. I hesitate to wander too far down this road.

 

Well, I think perhaps you answered my question with the underlined phrases. :)  The fire shadow is "cast by fire," while the ice shadow is "cast by ice," is that it?  That points to a difference in origin.  (And I'm curious to know how we picture ice casting a shadow.)

Is there also a difference in their natures? Or, as shadows, are they essentially the same?  

For example, is the fire shadow unable to "keep it's shape for long" because it's a fire shadow?  Or, like the ice shadow, if it were "cold and dark enough," would it have more success?

In other words: Is the ability (or inability) to "keep it's shape" and resist dissipation, (1) a function of the shadow's nature (ice shadow vs. fire shadow) ... or is it (2) a function of it's environment (warm/cold surrounds)?

 

Ser Gnarly Nail, I presume?  Yeah, I'm not watching the show, but I guarantee you that guy's not in the books.  :P

I'm thinking the fire cast shadow needs daylight. It's hard to stay a shadow in the dark if everything else is shadow. But a fire shadow is also wispy like smoke, so any breeze would speed up dissipation. Maybe a bright sunny, windless day would be ideal fire shadow conditions? Does anyone know if smoke is effected by temperature?

The ice cast shadow reflects the moon. I don't know if they can exist in total darkness. They don't like the sun though!

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

wasn't Renly killed in the morning? Fire cast shadows likely need daylight to move around.

Here's a description of the area, as Catelyn arrives back at camp, just before Renly's death.  She's returning after having spent the night praying in a village sept:

Quote

...in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly's shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. Where Storm's End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine...

And as she and Brienne flee the tent, after Renly's death:

Quote

A slash, and the green silk parted. They stepped out into darkness and the chill of dawn. ... Brienne thrust her sword blade through her belt and fell in beside Catelyn. The night air smelled of rain...

Renly's battles were already coming apart as the rumors spread from mouth to mouth. The nightfires had burned low, and as the east began to lighten the immense mass of Storm's End emerged like a dream of stone while wisps of pale mist raced across the field, flying from the sun on wings of wind. Morning ghosts, she had heard Old Nan call them once, spirits returning to their graves. And Renly one of them now, gone like his brother Robert, like her own dear Ned.  (2.33, CATELYN)

So, basically... Renly was assassinated at the darkest, coldest time of night - just before dawn. I think that's the hour referred to in these books as "the hour of the wolf."   (But I could be wrong.  By ADWD, it seemed like every hour of the night had its own animal...)

Intriguingly, that appears to be right about the same time of day that Sam Tarly encountered the Other, on his trek back from the Fist.  Note the coincidence of the Other's defeat with the coming of dawn:

Quote

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold." ... 

Grenn pulled Sam to his feet, checked Small Paul for a pulse and closed his eyes, then snatched up the dagger again. This time he was able to hold it.

"You keep it," Sam said. "You're not craven like me.”

"So craven you killed an Other." Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we had that way, we should catch Mormont."   (3.18, SAMWELL)

 

In each case, the Other attacks during the night - at the darkest, coldest moment of the day - just before the arrival of dawn.

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2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Does the central threat of the story qualify as "too big to mess with?" Because the central threat in the show is some guy called the Night's King who wears a uniform that's reminiscent of the NW uniform, raises the dead en masse as his servants, and converts Craster's sons into white walkers on an altar of ice beneath the curtain of light at the end of the world--without a weirwood in sight.

The greatest threat in the books going right back to that synopsis which I post at the start of each thread is and always has been the Others. The mummers' version has brought in a non-canonical Nights King simply because that's the nature of the medium and whether or not GRRM will introduce his own Duke of Hell at some later date doesn't detract from the centrality of the Others.

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15 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

In each case, the Other attacks during the night - at the darkest, coldest moment of the day - just before the arrival of dawn.

I think Old Nan's reference to Morning Ghosts probably says it all. Dark magick can be very literal, especially when shadows are involved, whether black or white.

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1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

I think Old Nan's reference to Morning Ghosts probably says it all. Dark magick can be very literal, especially when shadows are involved, whether black or white.

I agree that seems a particularly up front sort of hint, from GRRM. That entire chapter seems just loaded with suggestive imagery - from the "seventh face" Catelyn sees in the village sept, to the description of her surroundings both arriving and departing from Renly's tent, to the events inside the tent itself.  

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1 minute ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I agree that seems a particularly up front sort of hint, from GRRM. That entire chapter seems just loaded with suggestive imagery - from the "seventh face" Catelyn sees in the village sept, to the description of her surroundings both arriving and departing from Renly's tent, to the events inside the tent itself.  

I think its also suggestive of the Battle for the Dawn. Its not simply a matter of two sides lining up for a fight, with the continuing or ending of the Night as the prize. The dawn will come and the evil will flee - the trick is still standing when it does.

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43 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The greatest threat in the books going right back to that synopsis which I post at the start of each thread is and always has been the Others. The mummers' version has brought in a non-canonical Nights King simply because that's the nature of the medium and whether or not GRRM will introduce his own Duke of Hell at some later date doesn't detract from the centrality of the Others.

The army that the Night's King leads are the Others, as adapted by the show--with the question of whether or not the Night's King exists in the books being neither canonical nor non-canonical, but "To Be Determined." To suggest that a primary antagonist has been invented out of thin air is to suggest that nothing in the story is too big to mess with.

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49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think its also suggestive of the Battle for the Dawn.

:agree:

Yep. Seems highly likely, to me, that the recurring pattern of characters encountering these murderous shadows immediately before the dawn is... basically... a subtle prefiguring of exactly that: the Battle for the Dawn

And this: 

49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The dawn will come and the evil will flee - the trick is still standing when it does.

...is well put. In fact, if we consider things in this way, it's possible that the "Battle" refers not to engagement with the Others... but instead, represents conflict among the survivors.  Because (as you say) the shadows do flee, come the dawn... their destruction is certain. The only question really is who, or what power, lives to rule the next day.  

The "battle" to be the answer for that question would involve contenders from among those joined together against the Others.  Old race and new; Singer and Human; magical and nonmagical beings; maester and dragon; Jon Snow and Melisandre:

Quote

"I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me..."  (5.03, JON)

 

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1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Here's a description of the area, as Catelyn arrives back at camp, just before Renly's death.  She's returning after having spent the night praying in a village sept:

And as she and Brienne flee the tent, after Renly's death:

So, basically... Renly was assassinated at the darkest, coldest time of night - just before dawn. I think that's the hour referred to in these books as "the hour of the wolf."   (But I could be wrong.  By ADWD, it seemed like every hour of the night had its own animal...)

Intriguingly, that appears to be right about the same time of day that Sam Tarly encountered the Other, on his trek back from the Fist.  Note the coincidence of the Other's defeat with the coming of dawn:

 

In each case, the Other attacks during the night - at the darkest, coldest moment of the day - just before the arrival of dawn.

 

Thank you for finding these passages and sharing them. It was a good refresher. So they're basically the bogeyman and come during the darkest part of night. I wonder why? Melisandre said the brightest lights create the darkest shadows and she's not wrong on that point, so maybe it's not the shadows themselves that choose the night, but the humans that cast it? Darkness would shield the evil-doers from being seen.

 

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I agree that seems a particularly up front sort of hint, from GRRM. That entire chapter seems just loaded with suggestive imagery - from the "seventh face" Catelyn sees in the village sept, to the description of her surroundings both arriving and departing from Renly's tent, to the events inside the tent itself.  

Don't forget Renly's shadow knights...

I will reassert my belief here that the Others were and are human and of First Men descent that work magic to do harm, and under the cover of darkness. The Long Night was never one long extended night. It was night, after night, after night, after night of being afraid for your life.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Thank you for finding these passages and sharing them. It was a good refresher. So they're basically the bogeyman and come during the darkest part of night. I wonder why? Melisandre said the brightest lights create the darkest shadows and she's not wrong on that point, so maybe it's not the shadows themselves that choose the night, but the humans that cast it? Darkness would shield the evil-doers from being seen.

 

Don't forget Renly's shadow knights...

I will reassert my belief here that the Others were and are human and of First Men descent that work magic to do harm, and under the cover of darkness. The Long Night was never one long extended night. It was night, after night, after night, after night of being afraid for your life.

Well put Feather.

I've always considered that the brightest lights referred to the an individual rather than the sky or sun.  Hence the reason why as Mel has "sucked up" Stannis's light anything more would be but a flicker.

And the long night reference.....I know we've discussed this ad nausea here in Heresy, but the way you put it into words, a simpleton as myself (Hodor) can understand it.

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2 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Well put Feather.

I've always considered that the brightest lights referred to the an individual rather than the sky or sun.  Hence the reason why as Mel has "sucked up" Stannis's light anything more would be but a flicker.

And the long night reference.....I know we've discussed this ad nausea here in Heresy, but the way you put it into words, a simpleton as myself (Hodor) can understand it.

Not sure I ever take Mel's word on anything, but I always enjoy your posts, Mace!  

:cheers:

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On 5/3/2016 at 5:36 PM, Feather Crystal said:

1) echoes something Patchface said:

Yeah, Patchface is famous for his sayings about how the north is upside down and under water:

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Fool’s blood. King’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye.

Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish.

In the dark the dead are dancing. I know, I know, oh oh oh.

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.

The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

 

2) some hinge is open:

Melisandre says the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world. A hinge is something that holds a door, and wards sometimes involve the use of iron. The descriptive word "squeaky" implies that something is very old and rusted. In The Drowned Man, AFFC Chapter 19, Aeron Damphair associates Euron with a squeaky iron hinge, and he is very afraid of this memory. It is possible that Damphair witnessed Euron doing "something" in order to open a hinge. Blood sacrifice is a recognized requirement when weaving some magics, and it may also be required when unraveling a spell. The iron that Damphair associates with a squeaky hinge symbolizes that the hinge was warded.

 

3) Nahhh the cold winds aren't a separate entity:

Wind is arguably a stronger element than either ice or fire or water. It brings life to all the other three, and can turn all three deadly. Wind lowers temperatures making it easier to make ice. Wind breaths life into flames. Wind moves the waves of water.

1.) Feather i don't think that Patche's statement can be seen as "the North" being upside down.This to me says nothing about "the North"

2) I don't see the the connection from Euron being reffered to as a squeaky hinge and him opening some hypothethical hinge.

3.Again its not the wind "itself" its "what" has the capaility to use the wind as a vehicle.

 

On 5/3/2016 at 11:31 PM, Black Crow said:

 

  Hide contents

it didn't

 

Thankyou BC!

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.) Feather I don't think that Patche's statement can be seen as "the North" being upside down.This to me says nothing about "the North"

2) I don't see the the connection from Euron being referred to as a squeaky hinge and him opening some hypothethical hinge.

I agree and especially with 2. the door hinge of Damphair's nightmares cannot be equated with the great hinge of the Wall so eloquently proclaimed by Mel in that quote provided by Snowfyre.

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Thankyou BC!

Big spoiler - look away now.

 

just for the record, a Mel badly shaken by Stannis' defeat, and admitting she's a charlatan, is reluctantly persuaded to do a deed she thinks can't be done. The process involves her washing his wounds, trimming his hair and beard and burning the clippings, then washing his hair, before laying on her hands and talking High Valyrian for a while. There's nothing happens. She and the witnesses slink off leaving Jon alone with a sleeping Ghost. Ghost wakes up. Jon wakes up with a gasp. Credits roll. And that's it. Very low key.

 

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