Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

54 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Very true...

And so the game of blind man's buff goes on. Its worth remembering that Thoros' original and accidental raising of Beric was in the nature of a funerary rite - a last communion, but perhaps he also spoke some words

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This has been one of my theories for a while that it is fact the GSs perpetrating as these gods.

I wouldn't necessarily blame everything on greenseers. GRRM has already said that Gods - and that presumably includes "foreigners" like R'hllor and the Great Other - are not going to walk on Westeros' green and pleasant land, but I interpret that as meaning they are merely being invoked by lesser mortals, using or working magic, who clearly include but yet are not confined to greenseers.

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And so the game of blind man's buff goes on. Its worth remembering that Thoros' original and accidental raising of Beric was in the nature of a funerary rite - a last communion, but perhaps he also spoke some words

I'm still of the mind that "something" wants them to believe it is something they are doing.I don't think "Thoros" did anything at all except say words.

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I wouldn't necessarily blame everything on greenseers. GRRM has already said that Gods - and that presumably includes "foreigners" like R'hllor and the Great Other - are not going to walk on Westeros' green and pleasant land, but I interpret that as meaning they are merely being invoked by lesser mortals, using or working magic, who clearly include but yet are not confined to greenseers.

I know that there are many gods mentioned and beliefs in them ,but what i'm speaking of is these gods as true manifestations in themselves.These peoples belief is what's being manipulated its the old trickster move perpetrated by such beings as Ardria( Star trek next Generation.The Beyonder 90's Spiderman, and basically the Trickster myth of so many religions). A being of great power ( not a god) perpetrating a ruse on an unkowing people.

[Mace Cooterian]

27 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm still of the mind that "something" wants them to believe it is something they are doing.I don't think "Thoros" did anything at all except say words.

I know that there are many gods mentioned and beliefs in them ,but what i'm speaking of is these gods as true manifestations in themselves.These peoples belief is what's being manipulated its the old trickster move perpetrated by such beings as Ardria( Star trek next Generation.The Beyonder 90's Spiderman, and basically the Trickster myth of so many religions). A being of great power ( not a god) perpetrating a ruse on an unkowing people.

It's ASOS Chapter 34 (Arya VI).  My books are packed up and ready for a pending move (I know, stupid on my part,,,not the moving, but rather packing the books up) so I can't look this up.

The mummer's version shows Thoros hovering over Beric with hands folded (in a prayer) and uttering words.  This is not canon...so someone needs to confirm what he did in the books.

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Mace Cooterian said:

It's ASOS Chapter 34 (Arya VI).  My books are packed up and ready for a pending move (I know, stupid on my part,,,not the moving, but rather packing the books up) so I can't look this up.

The mummer's version shows Thoros hovering over Beric with hands folded (in a prayer) and uttering words.  This is not canon...so someone needs to confirm what he did in the books.

Though I'm slightly worried that you were able to list the chapter off the top of your head, it did make things a lot easier to verify. They do not show how This is revived Beric.  They carry him off screen and then he suddenly reappears. 

This is from chapter 40.

Quote

“I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god’s own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord’s servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R’hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God’s and God’s alone.”

 

[Lady Dyanna]

On 5/4/2016 at 2:27 PM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Well, I think perhaps you answered my question with the underlined phrases.   The fire shadow is "cast by fire," while the ice shadow is "cast by ice," is that it?  That points to a difference in origin.  (And I'm curious to know how we picture ice casting a shadow.)

Is there also a difference in their natures? Or, as shadows, are they essentially the same?  

For example, is the fire shadow unable to "keep it's shape for long" because it's a fire shadow?  Or, like the ice shadow, if it were "cold and dark enough," would it have more success?

In other words: Is the ability (or inability) to "keep it's shape" and resist dissipation, (1) a function of the shadow's nature (ice shadow vs. fire shadow) ... or is it (2) a function of it's environment (warm/cold surrounds)?

I agree that these "shadows" are cast of different materials, but what I don't believe is that the white or "ice" shadows are actually shadows, but in fact seem to be more of a reflection.  The shadows themselves appear to be just as different as the materials used to cast them . Fire is insubstantial. It consumes all around it leaving only smoke and ashes. That's what the fire shadows are. A smoke that continues to consume the environment surrounding it. It dissipates easily, but functions similarly to a black hole, pulling all available heat from the environment, hence the cold.  Ice, however, is a reflective solid substance, just as the white shadows are. Instead of consuming the light of the environment, they reflect it back. The cold air also reflects back off of it and actually seems to become colder, just like the air surrounding ice.  In this manner, the fire shadows need to continually be able to absorb light and heat from the environment in order to maintain themselves, yet may blow away as easily as smoke. I would say that those cast from ice would continue to remain solid as long as the environment surrounding them was not warm enough to impact or melt them. As they seem to be almost similar to frozen atmosphere, I would imagine that even direct sunlight might be warm enough to cause them to melt or dissipate. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Though I'm slightly worried that you were able to list the chapter off the top of your head, it did make things a lot easier to verify.

This is from chapter 40.

 

Yes, that's how I remembered it. I don't think its evidence of external intervention as Wolfmaid is suggesting but rather another manifestation of magic coming back into the world and things being possible that weren't before - and there is as Melisandre said in that great hinge speech an awful lot of magic in the Wall.

[Black Crow]

44 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I agree that these "shadows" are cast of different materials, but what I don't believe is that the white or "ice" shadows are actually shadows, but in fact seem to be more of a reflection.  The shadows themselves appear to be just as different as the materials used to cast them . Fire is insubstantial. It consumes all around it leaving only smoke and ashes. That's what the fire shadows are. A smoke that continues to consume the environment surrounding it. It dissipates easily, but functions similarly to a black hole, pulling all available heat from the environment, hence the cold.  Ice, however, is a reflective solid substance, just as the white shadows are. Instead of consuming the light of the environment, they reflect it back. The cold air also reflects back off of it and actually seems to become colder, just like the air surrounding ice.  In this manner, the fire shadows need to continually be able to absorb light and heat from the environment in order to maintain themselves, yet may blow away as easily as smoke. I would say that those cast from ice would continue to remain solid as long as the environment surrounding them was not warm enough to impact or melt them. As they seem to be almost similar to frozen atmosphere, I would imagine that even direct sunlight might be warm enough to cause them to melt or dissipate. 

I agree entirely and in the context of this particular discussion would suggest that the term "white shadows" is slightly misleading in that its actually used in text in relation to their being distantly glimpsed as white shadows in the woods. Up close and personal Craster's boys are very solid indeed.

[Black Crow]

mormont

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Posted 9 hours ago · Report post

As the show goes out, we want to be clear on our policy regarding spoilers for the benefit of all users.

We understand that developments in the TV show may or may not turn out to be relevant to the plot of future books. Accordingly, they may or may not be spoilers for future books. Our policy on this is precautionary and is an extension of our existing policy on show/book discussion. Discussion of the show should go in the show forums: this includes discussion of plot points from the series, and whether they tell us anything about the future direction of the books.

At the same time we recognise that there are users who are not watching the series and prefer to remain unspoiled. This may or may not prove possible in the long run, but we prefer not to make it any harder.

This means that no show spoilers of any kind should be posted in the book forums. No hints, no speculation, nothing. Any breach of that rule will result in a suspension: no excuses and no exceptions.

[Armstark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

mormont

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Posted 9 hours ago · Report post

As the show goes out, we want to be clear on our policy regarding spoilers for the benefit of all users.

We understand that developments in the TV show may or may not turn out to be relevant to the plot of future books. Accordingly, they may or may not be spoilers for future books. Our policy on this is precautionary and is an extension of our existing policy on show/book discussion. Discussion of the show should go in the show forums: this includes discussion of plot points from the series, and whether they tell us anything about the future direction of the books.

At the same time we recognise that there are users who are not watching the series and prefer to remain unspoiled. This may or may not prove possible in the long run, but we prefer not to make it any harder.

This means that no show spoilers of any kind should be posted in the book forums. No hints, no speculation, nothing. Any breach of that rule will result in a suspension: no excuses and no exceptions.

I have to say that I got spoiled by this thread, or at least I would have gotten spoiled if I wouldn't have surrendered to watching the show a few hours beforehand. @wolfmaid7 was especially careless.

 

Of course one could argue I should stay away from here if I don't watch the show, but I don't want to (which, ironically, is one of the main reasons I watched the show anyway in the end).

[Armstark]

On 1.5.2016 at 7:04 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Sorry about the long wait but i wanted to get back to this.I'm working on two points here but to answer you directly.We are given two visuals that if we remove the elemental difference is exactly the same. We see some of the COTF all plugged into the weirnet in BR's cave.Then we compare that to another vision.

"Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid."

 

I believe this is the ice version of BR's cave.Dreamers plugged into ice instead of the Weirwood and from Bran's point ov view he may have thought they were dead and maybe they were.But the bones remember do they.

I will tie this back into the whole casting a shadow and what exactly is that but a representation of a person.Bran cast his shadow/likeness unto the tree and Theon saw it.We know that a Skinchanger can inhabit pretty much anything from v6's little tour before he died.What if the same is going on ice side from such an abode.Casting their shadow/binding it to the ice.

Now the shadowbinding aspect of JNR's theory is what i find plauisble.It doesn't have to be sex oriented like Melissadre,just someone who is able to cast through certain means and in this case Skincganging.

 

It was worth the wait and I like this a lot! I have to think on it some more.

 

On 1.5.2016 at 7:04 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

 

However,as i've pointed out elswhere nature selected Dragons to sleep and do so for a long time because it wasn't their time.

 

Was it nature or not rather the Measters who selected dragons to sleep?

[Matthew.]

Dang. I just noticed that this site's Citadel section is actually missing a significant portion of a vision from the books that comes up semi-regularly in discussions, yet I think posting about it now would, in a roundabout way, be Season 6 discussion; if not an outright spoiler, at least spoiler adjacent. Oh well :|

[Black Crow]

If its in the books post away

[Matthew.]

Eh...it's in the books, but still, I'm putting the vision in spoiler tags, because it's a little too close to show discussion, and I think anyone who's avoiding the show entirely might feel implicitly spoiled by the fact that I'm even raising it. For anyone avoiding spoilers, this does not contain S6 information, but you really shouldn't look anyway:

 

Spoiler

_____
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …
_____

For most discussion of visions and prophecies, I'd been using the Citadel as reference, yet the Citadel leaves off that entire second paragraph.

Granted, the first paragraph is important too, but the second one may have troubling implications. Jon is violently slaying the spirits of both his brothers in black and his actual brother - slaying the essence of his vows, and the essence of family loyalty - while screaming that he's the Lord of Winterfell. Granted, it's always been speculated that, depending on what happens with Robb's letter(s) that this could happen anyway, but this puts a more morally dubious spin on the whole thing. It also aligns really well with some show-only prophecies from previous seasons, but I suppose I can't go there.

 

[Melifeather]

I'd like to offer a bit of my interpretation just on Jon being "armored in black ice" This is a long explanation, but it'll come back around and make sense...I promise. 

Have your ever heard about the Biblical symbolism of the four cardinal directions?  What I think applies to Jon is the King of the North symbolism.

The North: Bible students have suggested that the north is a symbol of the permanent or the eternal, perhaps because the polar stars were permanently visible in the sky. It is the place of God’s celestial dwelling (Isa. 14:13) and from which His glory descends (Job 37:22) with blessings or judgments (Eze. 1:4). He is the true King of the North.

But the north—represented by the left hand—is also a symbol of disaster. The enemy of God’s people came from the north (Jer. 1:14, 15; Eze. 38:6), bringing destruction. In a sense, the enemy was the false king of the north who tried to usurp God’s role and is finally destroyed by the Lord (Zeph. 2:12; Dan. 11:21-45).

I have been a proponent that the original Ice was black and that the Starks are the black knights and shield of the north. This may be the true origin of King in the North. A permanent fixture not unlike the polar north star. It's a bit different than what Robb Stark made it out to be. It's more of a protective role than as a monarch. And for some reason the King in the North has to be a skinchanger/warg, and he has to be dead.

Well, at least "dead" like we thought Jon was, but he's been resuscitated, or resurrected if you like better.

Aristotle's believed that humans don't die until their bodies are separated from their spirit. That belief seems to apply to Westeros since the "bones remember" implies that the spirit remains in the bones, unless they are cracked open. BUT Skinchangers are able to slip their skins and move their spirits into another host. They remain tethered to their bodies, but their bodies don't die while they're away. Why is that? We assume the spirit gets severed when the body dies, because Varamyr's spirit floated loose and he lost control over where he went, but maybe he made a mistake? I don't know, I'm just spitballing here...but, maybe his struggle with Thistle severed his connection?

 The mummers version showed something we weren't expecting. He woke up in his own body again. How did he do that?

My idea or suggestion for how Jon may have been armored in black ice has to do with something only Stark wargs can do: reanimate their own dead body. The "black ice" is symbolic then of being armored in death. He cannot be killed, because he's already dead.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Eh...it's in the books, but still, I'm putting the vision in spoiler tags, because it's a little too close to show discussion, and I think anyone who's avoiding the show entirely might feel implicitly spoiled by the fact that I'm even raising it. For anyone avoiding spoilers, this does not contain S6 information, but you really shouldn't look anyway:

 

  Hide contents

_____
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …
_____

For most discussion of visions and prophecies, I'd been using the Citadel as reference, yet the Citadel leaves off that entire second paragraph.

Granted, the first paragraph is important too, but the second one may have troubling implications. Jon is violently slaying the spirits of both his brothers in black and his actual brother - slaying the essence of his vows, and the essence of family loyalty - while screaming that he's the Lord of Winterfell. Granted, it's always been speculated that, depending on what happens with Robb's letter(s) that this could happen anyway, but this puts a more morally dubious spin on the whole thing. It also aligns really well with some show-only prophecies from previous seasons, but I suppose I can't go there.

 

I'm inclined to view this dream in a relatively straightforward manner. The context is that Jon is exhausted, under pressure and full of doubts and this is reflected both in the dream and in what follows. As a black brother of the Nights Watch he must defend the Wall, but yet in doing so he betrays his friends and his lover and yet at the same time be has to fight his brothers - and ultimately of course they kill him. Likewise even his brother and best friend who nevertheless named him a bastard.

All of this came from Jon Snow following duty. Perhaps it was a warning to follow his conscience instead

[Arry'sFleas]

 

 

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest.

 

It is worth noting that the 3 brothers present in Jon's dream have been significant in his time at the NW: Noye put him on the right track early on, Deaf Dick held the wall alongside him and the Halfand was the reason why Jon started to see the wildlings as 'men'.

I wonder if the melting snow isn't an allusion to either moving away from the wall or the end of winter, when Jon is the Lord Of WF as per Robb's own letter.

And who should get him out of this nightmare, but the gnarled hand of Dywen, the man who can smell the cold, and who is away ranging with Thorne. Not sure what to make of this one though.

 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 As a black brother of the Nights Watch he must defend the Wall, but yet in doing so he betrays his friends and his lover and yet at the same time be has to fight his brothers - and ultimately of course they kill him. Likewise even his brother and best friend who nevertheless named him a bastard.

All of this came from Jon Snow following duty. Perhaps it was a warning to follow his conscience instead

That's a fine enough context for the first half of the vision, and Ygritte, but leaves something to be desired in interpreting the second. Screaming "I am the lord of Winterfell," and proceeding to behead Robb with Longclaw seems...less suggestive of following duty. It may, instead, be a glimpse into suppressed desires, things unresolved--not just wishing he could be a true Stark, but wishing he could have been the heir to Winterfell.

I think it's foreshadowing a less "heroic" and dutiful Jon Snow than the one we've had thus far, at least for a while--unless we're to assume that, with at least two more books worth of story to tell, there's no more temptation, no more internal conflict, no more arcs left for Jon Snow.

And, of course... there's that armor of black ice, and Longclaw burning red in his fist.

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

It's ASOS Chapter 34 (Arya VI).  My books are packed up and ready for a pending move (I know, stupid on my part,,,not the moving, but rather packing the books up) so I can't look this up.

The mummer's version shows Thoros hovering over Beric with hands folded (in a prayer) and uttering words.  This is not canon...so someone needs to confirm what he did in the books.

 

10 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Though I'm slightly worried that you were able to list the chapter off the top of your head, it did make things a lot easier to verify. They do not show how This is revived Beric.  They carry him off screen and then he suddenly reappears. 

This is from chapter 40.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I agree that these "shadows" are cast of different materials, but what I don't believe is that the white or "ice" shadows are actually shadows, but in fact seem to be more of a reflection.  The shadows themselves appear to be just as different as the materials used to cast them . Fire is insubstantial. It consumes all around it leaving only smoke and ashes. That's what the fire shadows are. A smoke that continues to consume the environment surrounding it. It dissipates easily, but functions similarly to a black hole, pulling all available heat from the environment, hence the cold.  Ice, however, is a reflective solid substance, just as the white shadows are. Instead of consuming the light of the environment, they reflect it back. The cold air also reflects back off of it and actually seems to become colder, just like the air surrounding ice.  In this manner, the fire shadows need to continually be able to absorb light and heat from the environment in order to maintain themselves, yet may blow away as easily as smoke. I would say that those cast from ice would continue to remain solid as long as the environment surrounding them was not warm enough to impact or melt them. As they seem to be almost similar to frozen atmosphere, I would imagine that even direct sunlight might be warm enough to cause them to melt or dissipate. 

 

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, that's how I remembered it. I don't think its evidence of external intervention as Wolfmaid is suggesting but rather another manifestation of magic coming back into the world and things being possible that weren't before - and there is as Melisandre said in that great hinge speech an awful lot of magic in the Wall.

Because what i'm posting deals with all this.I s61uggest reading Arya asos pg 461-Of note Thoros words to Arya

"The Lord of Light has woken in my heart.Many powers long asleep are waking,and there are forces moving in the land i have seen them in my flames."

Where have we heard something similar before and in reference to whom?

Let's move on to Arya's description:

"The voice came from the man seated amongst weirwood roots halfway up the wall........snip

"The speaker was decending a tangle of steps towards the floor........."A scarecrow of a man ,he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundread battles................When he reached the floor the outlaws moved aside to let him pass.One of his eye was gone,Arya saw,the flesh about the socket scarred and puckered,and he had a dark black ring all around his neck. "With their help ,we fight as best we can for Robert and the realm."

When we superimpose the imagery inside Hollow Hill on that of Bran's cave ,we see the connection.Its meant to evoke that these two things are similar.Down to the one eyed man sitting on a throne of weirwoods.Its the same power at work.

4 hours ago, Armstark said:

I have to say that I got spoiled by this thread, or at least I would have gotten spoiled if I wouldn't have surrendered to watching the show a few hours beforehand. @wolfmaid7 was especially careless.

 

Of course one could argue I should stay away from here if I don't watch the show, but I don't want to (which, ironically, is one of the main reasons I watched the show anyway in the end).

I am unable to watch but i was curious.Now i know it can't even be discussed in spoiler tags.

4 hours ago, Armstark said:

 

It was worth the wait and I like this a lot! I have to think on it some more.

 

Was it nature or not rather the Measters who selected dragons to sleep?

The Maesters probably just put things right seeing as they were most likely never to have been awoken in the first place.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

That's a fine enough context for the first half of the vision, and Ygritte, but leaves something to be desired in interpreting the second. Screaming "I am the lord of Winterfell," and proceeding to behead Robb with Longclaw seems...less suggestive of following duty. It may, instead, be a glimpse into suppressed desires, things unresolved--not just wishing he could be a true Stark, but wishing he could have been the heir to Winterfell.

I think it's foreshadowing a less "heroic" and dutiful Jon Snow than the one we've had thus far, at least for a while--unless we're to assume that, with at least two more books worth of story to tell, there's no more temptation, no more internal conflict, no more arcs left for Jon Snow.

And, of course... there's that armor of black ice, and Longclaw burning red in his fist.

Its not necessarily that direct. I think rather that it reflects Jon's frustrations thus far. He went to the Wall not because he thought it would be a grand adventure but because it offered a future he didn't have in Winterfell and where it didn't matter he was a bastard. What hurt about Robb was his winning the king of the castle business, proclaiming himself Lord of Winterfell and being put down by Robb of all people telling him he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell because he was a bastard. I think that the dream specifically references that incident rather than expresses a genuine desire to Lord of Winterfell - contrast this with his crypt dreams - but rather he wants to stop being the bastard