Heresy 184

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Voice said:

Psh you're asking the wrong heretic. I ain't even getting involved. Last time I responded one of your grievances you quit the forum and ended up having a bunch of people's posts deleted remember?!?!! LOL

But yeah there were some differences. The cold mist stuff sounds pretty similar though.

You were involved? Geesh, that's news to me. Maybe if you had we could have avoided a lot of grief. As for the cold mist stuff, maybe you're thinking of the author?

"The cold winds are rising, and the dead rise with them." <~~~George RR Martin

[Voice]

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

You were involved? Geesh, that's news to me. Maybe if you had we could have avoided a lot of grief. As for the cold mist stuff, maybe you're thinking of the author?

LOL! Twas not for lack of trying, and we never would have expected you to go out of your way to delete stuff. But tis all water under the bridge, and ancient history so far as I'm concerned.

You are quite right, ultimate credit for the "white mists" idea should probably go to GRRM. I am reluctant to do so, because I view my posts as intellectual property, but I should probably give him credit for Night's King and the Hierarchy of the Others.

[House Cambodia]

On 09/05/2016 at 6:23 AM, Matthew. said:

Perhaps, but functioning as a de facto lord (or king) of the North seems only a small step away from actually being the Lord of Winterfell, which is something he secretly desires. If conflict of the heart is to remain an important element of the story, we might infer that Jon's (theoretical) future journey will not be purely defined by external threats--eg bringing this lord or that lord into the fold.

 

I'm with you 90% of the way, but not this. I think Jon's motivations re. The North are being presented in sharp distinction to Littlefinger. He is the one who "secretly desires" (well, not so secretly to perceptive readers 'n' viewers) formal power, having come from a humble background. LF plays the game; Jon never had time for that. NewJon will be harder, nastier and maybe morally dubious, but I think he needs to continue to be presented as a strong contrast to LF.

To further endorse a point made above re. conflicts of the heart, it is GRRM's genius to present the whole saga through different protagonists' POVs. All of them are presented as doing what they genuinely think is for the best, down to Cercei doing all for her children (a truth brilliantly subverted by HS this week - and presumably next as he works on Tommen). This is the essential power of the whole story of ASOIAF - life is not a matter of good vs. evil; it's a clash of contradictory notions of good.

[Black Crow]

Just to move things on a bit, an idle or perhaps not so idle thought occurred to me.

Sam, rummaging through the archives in Castle Black finds surprisingly little about the Others, but what he does find is largely consistent with what else we've been told; uncertainty as to whether they come when its cold and dark and or whether they bring the cold, riding dead horses, leading armies of the slain and so on. But there is one thing which puzzles him [and us] and that's the mention of Ice Spiders big as hounds.

Now consider, aside from the apparent relative familiarity of the white shadows in the woods, this supposedly comes from before the Andals, and therefore relies on oral testimony [and not in the common tongue] and runic inscriptions, which are limited at the best of times. 

We've already had Maester Aemon chuntering on about stuff getting lost in translation on dragons and princes. Have we got the same thing here; a mistranslation and the "spiders" not being spiders at all but something quite different?

[Black Crow]

And another thing... in considering how the likes of the seemingly peripheral Ironborn fit in, its worth recalling Qhorin Halfhand's warning about the Old Powers awakening. I suspect its significant that he referred not to the Old Gods but to the Old Powers; whether we should be expanding our definition of the Others or not, I think that his warning isn't limited to Craster's boys and their masters, but rather that all the powers of Hell are brak loose - without any need for inversion.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I'm with you 90% of the way, but not this. I think Jon's motivations re. The North are being presented in sharp distinction to Littlefinger. He is the one who "secretly desires" (well, not so secretly to perceptive readers 'n' viewers) formal power, having come from a humble background. LF plays the game; Jon never had time for that. NewJon will be harder, nastier and maybe morally dubious, but I think he needs to continue to be presented as a strong contrast to LF.

To further endorse a point made above re. conflicts of the heart, it is GRRM's genius to present the whole saga through different protagonists' POVs. All of them are presented as doing what they genuinely think is for the best, down to Cercei doing all for her children (a truth brilliantly subverted by HS this week - and presumably next as he works on Tommen). This is the essential power of the whole story of ASOIAF - life is not a matter of good vs. evil; it's a clash of contradictory notions of good.

I agree, and especially as to the bolded part. This has always been a story of unintended consequences. As to Jon's motivations I think that Winterfell is a symbol. It may be his expressed goal but its just a measure of his real desire to be accepted and recognised as himself and not to be defined as the bastard, or any other millstone round his neck.

[Melifeather]

I've read where other's have posited that the ice spiders are krakens, although I don't know how they could move out of water.

The Children and houses of the north worship the old gods. What were the old gods? The god of the sea, the goddess of the wind, the storm god, etc. I think all of those gods are the old gods.

[House Cambodia]

Krakens are the size of dragons though, not dogs.

[Melifeather]

I would love to see an "ice spider" turn out to be a kraken since that would be fitting coming out of the great northern sea beyond the Wall!

The term "old gods" is not capitalized so it is not the name of the gods that the Children worship, and it's plural meaning more than one...so I believe it's pretty straightforward that they worship all the gods of nature: wind, sea, storm, moon etc.

[Black Crow]

The point here being that Qhorin doesn't warn of the old gods, but of the old powers awakening. Arguably that might be semantics but given the emphasis on all sorts of magic coming into play I'm suggesting that there's more than just the trees opening their eyes.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I've read where other's have posited that the ice spiders are krakens, although I don't know how they could move out of water.

Depends a bit on the accuracy of the translation. If they were just ice spiders they might not be regarded as formidable so its easy to see Old Nan or one of her forebears responding to youthful scorn with a retort that these spiders were as big as hounds. If the size was correctly reported then the mistranslation might see direwolves become "spiders", but if the name has been translated wrongly then perhaps they were not Ice Spiders but Ice Dragons

[Black Crow]

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

An interesting cave once occupied by the three-fingered tree-huggers, but otherwise a fairly sluggish chapter with no exciting revelations

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The point here being that Qhorin doesn't warn of the old gods, but of the old powers awakening. Arguably that might be semantics but given the emphasis on all sorts of magic coming into play I'm suggesting that there's more than just the trees opening their eyes.

Arguably, if powers = magics, then this could still apply to the sea and wind. Obviously the seas and the wind have always been there...they didn't just go away, but if the seas and the wind also used to have magical powers that were once contained and are now released, then that is what happened with regards to an old warded hinge being opened.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

An interesting cave once occupied by the three-fingered tree-huggers, but otherwise a fairly sluggish chapter with no exciting revelations

I gave it a quick scan...will reread tonight, but there was something I wanted to point out: a reference to Storm's End and the angry gods of sea and wind for taking their daughter, which I believe was "magic".  Elenei was the magic that was contained after the Long Night, and which I believe was released after the hinge was reopened.

[Voice]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Depends a bit on the accuracy of the translation. If they were just ice spiders they might not be regarded as formidable so its easy to see Old Nan or one of her forebears responding to youthful scorn with a retort that these spiders were as big as hounds. If the size was correctly reported then the mistranslation might see direwolves become "spiders", but if the name has been translated wrongly then perhaps they were not Ice Spiders but Ice Dragons

 

It's important to remember that Old Nan is not the only source regarding Ice Spiders. I am hopeful we will see both the giant, monstrous, ride-able variety, as well as the smaller variety that serve as hunting hounds.

 

Oral History:  ASOS - Samwell I

He remembered turning in a circle, lost, the fear growing inside him as it always did. There were dogs barking and horses trumpeting, but the snow muffled the sounds and made them seem far away. Sam could see nothing beyond three yards, not even the torches burning along the low stone wall that ringed the crown of the hill. Could the torches have gone out? That was too scary to think about. The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood.

 

The Annals of Castle Black:  AFFC - Samwell I

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

 

The Citadel:  WB - Ancient History: The Long Night

Yet there are other tales—harder to credit and yet more central to the old histories—about creatures known as the Others. According to these tales, they came from the frozen Land of Always Winter, bringing the cold and darkness with them as they sought to extinguish all light and warmth. The tales go on to say they rode monstrous ice spiders and the horses of the dead, resurrected to serve them, just as they resurrected dead men to fight on their behalf.

 

I also hold out hope that the following means that we'll see airborne Ice Spiders...

SSM:  1993 Letter

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

[Mace Cooterian]

On the subject of "ice spiders".....the only spiders I've ever seen were walking up a wall or across a ceiling.  Rarely, do you find them walking across the floor.  I did say "rarely".

I'm still considering @Feather Crystal theory on the whole inversion/flip process going on in Westeros (the cold winds withstanding....) and remain....undecided, or as they say in Texas...on the fence.  However, the reference to Ice Spiders and their comparison to Krackens draws my attention.  The only way this comparison stands is if indeed their is a flip going on in the circle of time...unless I've missed something.

My point is that I can see a comparison being made between an 8-legged arthropod and an 8-armed sea monster.  But only if H2O is changing states.

 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 5/2/2016 at 8:08 AM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

No, I don't either. What suggests Ned, to me, is the fact that Jojen clearly expected Bran to know the story. Meaning that, in Jojen's view, there was somebody in Bran's household who both knew, and would have had reason to tell (and retell) the tale. Ned is the only person who would qualify.

We know Ned wasn't a great boaster - but Jojen didn't know Ned. We can guess, then, that Jojen expected more typical (stereotypical) Westerosi male behavior from the Lord of Winterfell. Boastful, macho, enjoying a laugh at those he'd shown up, etc.

There's nice symmetry here, I think... in that Bran and the Reed children each learn things about their father's friend. Bran hears the crannogman's story for the first time. Jojen and Meera realize, through Bran's prior ignorance, that the man who took their father's part not only protected his honor at the tourney - but continued to protect his honor for years thereafter... refusing to shame him by claiming credit for the role of KotLT.  This likely provided them some insight into their father's remarkable, and continuing, affection for Ned Stark.

But it's not the fact that Ned didn't tell the story to Bran, that indicates Ned was the KotLT. It's Jojen's expectation that Bran had been told. That expectation seems suggestive.

All that said, the ambiguity is baked into the story. I'm pretty sure even Jojen is just guessing, because Meera herself clearly wants to believe the KotLT was the crannogman.  So, an interesting situation, all around. We've got a crannogman who tells the story, but won't take explicit credit for the deeds of the mystery knight. And we've got the crannogman's son, who seems to think this story would be a family favorite at Winterfell. All in all, it leaves me with the impression that this story belongs to Howland and to Ned.

Oh-hoh! A nice topic here to think about. Ned as the mystery knight is totally believable with a very good chance of being the truth. Howland too. Meera's story is about Howland including Ned's initiation into the friendship between the two. The she-wolf was an instigator but most likely not the mystery knight.

I'm still holding out hope that Martin reveals this in the future. Jamie Lannister for the win, of course, in a twisted way. Who better to bring the Starks ,vicariously through the Reeds, redemption then later set in motion the tragedy of the North? 

[House Cambodia]

3 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

On the subject of "ice spiders".....the only spiders I've ever seen were walking up a wall or across a ceiling.  Rarely, do you find them walking across the floor.  I did say "rarely".

I'm still considering @Feather Crystal theory on the whole inversion/flip process going on in Westeros (the cold winds withstanding....) and remain....undecided, or as they say in Texas...on the fence.  However, the reference to Ice Spiders and their comparison to Krackens draws my attention.  The only way this comparison stands is if indeed their is a flip going on in the circle of time...unless I've missed something.

My point is that I can see a comparison being made between an 8-legged arthropod and an 8-armed sea monster.  But only if H2O is changing states.

 

Sure there are 'floor' spiders, such as trapdoor spiders.

All the references above imply ice spiders are the size of direwolves or ponies; kraken crush seafaring ships. That's a vast difference in size that defeats the connection for me.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Voice said:

It's important to remember that Old Nan is not the only source regarding Ice Spiders. I am hopeful we will see both the giant, monstrous, ride-able variety, as well as the smaller variety that serve as hunting hounds.

What's a little interesting here is the way that they have grown in the telling. We were originally introduced to them by GRRM through Old Nan when they were described as big as hounds, in GRRM's later accounts as variously quoted they seem to have "grewed and grewed" in the telling; which is as you'd expect in oral story-telling, and its this discrepancy which makes me wonder whether there's something gone wrong in the translation to the common tongue and that they aint spiders at all but something different and that if they are capable of being ridden might the Ice walkers be riding Ice dragons.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

On the subject of "ice spiders".....the only spiders I've ever seen were walking up a wall or across a ceiling.  Rarely, do you find them walking across the floor.  I did say "rarely".

Yeah and its the ones running [not walking but running] that have me reaching for a heavy object