Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm glad you spoke of this because the only other that was similar to this in tems of it being old with spells and and lore woven in is Storm's end.Legends say the COTF may have had thei hand in this or Bran the builder as a boy....as a boy....Is SE older than WF i forgot?

Really don't remember if its ever specifically mentioned but I do distinctly remember this one:

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

[Black Crow]

52 minutes ago, Voice said:

I thought you generally frowned upon complicating the story?

What happened? LOL

Kidding of course, but no. No reason to put words in GRRM's mouth. He's said plenty without our help.

Ah but it may not be a "complication" at all, I can just see Sam in the Citadel doing some proper research and suddenly realising that I%*+@~# doesn't mean spider at all but dragon - note exactly the same number of letters 

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Really don't remember if its ever specifically mentioned but I do distinctly remember this one:

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

 

Yes, the myths exist, but so do the actual structures. Both are said to have been built during the Dawn Age, and we have references to Winterfell that throw around 8000 and 10,000 years ago, but I don't recall number of years for Storms End...although, I do expect Storms End to be older, because of the story of Elenei...I think this will end up being very central to the story, and the more southern location may indicate an earlier settlement.

[Black Crow]

They exist certainly, but the point is that Winterfell aside we should be wary of attributing them to Bob the Builder

[Black Crow]

I'd also underline the reminder that whatever the significance of Storm's End it is Winterfell which appears to be central to the resolution of the story according to the old synopsis and while some things have and appear to be changing, for example the likelihood we've discussed before that [ahem] Sansa will replace Arya in getting it together with Jon, I really don't see the centrality of Winterfell being lost.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd also underline the reminder that whatever the significance of Storm's End it is Winterfell which appears to be central to the resolution of the story according to the old synopsis and while some things have and appear to be changing, for example the likelihood we've discussed before that [ahem] Sansa will replace Arya in getting it together with Jon, I really don't see the centrality of Winterfell being lost.

Oh, Winterfell is important. No doubt about that, and I didn't mean to discount it, but the gods were angry with the Storm Lord over the warding of magic. IMO it seems implied that Durran Godsgrief had something to do with the Children putting up the Wall in the first place, with the Starks positioned as guardians at Winterfell.

[wolfmaid7]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd also underline the reminder that whatever the significance of Storm's End it is Winterfell which appears to be central to the resolution of the story according to the old synopsis and while some things have and appear to be changing, for example the likelihood we've discussed before that [ahem] Sansa will replace Arya in getting it together with Jon, I really don't see the centrality of Winterfell being lost.

I certainly agree with Winterfell being central to the resolution of what's going on at least magically what i was trying to do was have a mental pictue of certain markers attributed to the COTF and BTB.I'm more and more convinced he is still in the game not physically solid but as a shadow that won't go away.

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh, Winterfell is important. No doubt about that, and I didn't mean to discount it, but the gods were angry with the Storm Lord over the warding of magic. IMO it seems implied that Durran Godsgrief had something to do with the Children putting up the Wall in the first place, with the Starks positioned as guardians at Winterfell.

The Wall? How so?

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I certainly agree with Winterfell being central to the resolution of what's going on at least magically what i was trying to do was have a mental pictue of certain markers attributed to the COTF and BTB.I'm more and more convinced he is still in the game not physically solid but as a shadow that won't go away.

The Wall? How so?

When I say "the Wall" I meant the warded hinge that kept magic contained. The physical structure was a coordinated effort that was added to over the years.

The story of the first Storm Lord was that he married Elenei. Elenei was the daughter of two gods: the god of the sea and the goddess of the wind. IMO Elenei was magic.

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

When I say "the Wall" I meant the warded hinge that kept magic contained. The physical structure was a coordinated effort that was added to over the years.

The story of the first Storm Lord was that he married Elenei. Elenei was the daughter of two gods: the god of the sea and the goddess of the wind. IMO Elenei was magic.

I'm wary of this, although it depends how literally you want to take it. GRRM has promised that gods won't walk on Westeros' green and pleasant land and I'd question whether they ever did. Its common in most cultures at attribute names and characters to elements such as say, the North Wind and the West Wind, but that doesn't seriously mean that there ever were such characters. I think that this is just GRRM's world building. That's not to say that those working great magick didn't or couldn't draw upon those elements but rather that in doing so they were not dealing with entities.

[Voice]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ah but it may not be a "complication" at all, I can just see Sam in the Citadel doing some proper research and suddenly realising that I%*+@~# doesn't mean spider at all but dragon - note exactly the same number of letters 

Cute, but our dreams are not always literal my friend.

While they contain the same number of letters in English, that has little bearing on runes, let alone the scratches of grey mice and septons.

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Voice said:

Cute, but our dreams are not always literal my friend.

While they contain the same number of letters in English, that has little bearing on runes, let alone the scratches of grey mice and septons.

Ah but where's your sense of humour? That bit was the joke. I still hold out the basic premise of a possible mistranslation 

[Voice]

Just now, Black Crow said:

Ah but where's your sense of humour? That bit was the joke. I still hold out the basic premise of a possible mistranslation 

LOL I'm sorry, I was only joking too. You should know by now that I'm rarely serious.

[Black Crow]

I know, I know 

And with that to bed, to sleep, perchance to dream... but not of spiders or of dragons

[Voice]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I know, I know 

And with that to bed, to sleep, perchance to dream... but not of spiders or of dragons

[Mace Cooterian]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I know, I know 

And with that to bed, to sleep, perchance to dream... but not of spiders or of dragons

Before this segment of Heresy draws to a close I'm still of the mood to dream of spiders.

At some point as they continue their march South, the WW's are going to run out of runway and end up at the wall.  There are several potential outcomes that would then come into play:

1.  They flip everybody at the Wall off and say na-na na-na boo-boo we ran you all of the North and now it's our to keep.  Doubtful.

2.  They walk right through the wall and materialize on the other side....T-1000 like in Terminator 2.  Again, doubtful.

3.  Somebody whips out the Horn of Joruman and the wall comes tumbling down.  This is quickly followed up by the hit single..."Then the Sh*t hits the Fan".  Possible.

4.  The WW's start crawling up the wall, without cables, hooks or spikes...sort of "spider like".  I'm somewhat intrigued.

5.  And perhaps my personal favorite, they whistle and the ice spiders come out of the group like sand crabs on a beach at nighttime.  The  WW's mount their mares and hi-oh silver to the top of the wall.  That's what I would like to see.

 

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Before this segment of Heresy draws to a close I'm still of the mood to dream of spiders.

At some point as they continue their march South, the WW's are going to run out of runway and end up at the wall.  There are several potential outcomes that would then come into play:

1.  They flip everybody at the Wall off and say na-na na-na boo-boo we ran you all of the North and now it's our to keep.  Doubtful.

2.  They walk right through the wall and materialize on the other side....T-1000 like in Terminator 2.  Again, doubtful.

3.  Somebody whips out the Horn of Joruman and the wall comes tumbling down.  This is quickly followed up by the hit single..."Then the Sh*t hits the Fan".  Possible.

4.  The WW's start crawling up the wall, without cables, hooks or spikes...sort of "spider like".  I'm somewhat intrigued.

5.  And perhaps my personal favorite, they whistle and the ice spiders come out of the group like sand crabs on a beach at nighttime.  The  WW's mount their mares and hi-oh silver to the top of the wall.  That's what I would like to see.

 

I believe the hinge is open so there's nothing to stop them from climbing over, but they may not need to since the wildlings are already south of the Wall along with their priestess. They can conjure new white walkers south of the Wall. All they need is a sacrifice.

[Arry'sFleas]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ser Puddles, his blue blood and his white bones certainly wasn't a vision

well, that is what Sam saw; vision may not be the right word, 'appearance'..as in the WW takes the appearance of..

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm wary also of this business of treading lightly on the snow.

so what do you make of this? from Sam:

The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

 

[Arry'sFleas]

41 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

And perhaps my personal favorite, they whistle and the ice spiders come out of the group like sand crabs on a beach at nighttime.  The  WW's mount their mares and hi-oh silver to the top of the wall.  That's what I would like to see.

i like it...and there are other wall climbing creatures...check out monitor lizards, they grow big out here..monsters compared to geckos...and that would help with the 'lost in translation' idea..

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

well, that is what Sam saw; vision may not be the right word, 'appearance'..as in the WW takes the appearance of..

so what do you make of this? from Sam:

The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

 

I agree with Arry'sFleas. The passage about the Others was as in the third person and the narrator was describing the scene and not the characters.

[Mace Cooterian]

1 hour ago, Arry'sFleas said:

i like it...and there are other wall climbing creatures...check out monitor lizards, they grow big out here..monsters compared to geckos...and that would help with the 'lost in translation' idea..

Exactly.  And if there ever was a loss in translation between ice spiders and wingless dragons (wyverns) see monitor lizards.

@Arry'sFleas I'm convinced.