Jump to content

Heresy 184


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, Armstark said:

 

 

Nevertheless I am still interested in your explanation of "impaled on ice".

 

Ohhh good thank you for bringing that up that was lost in the melee.

Ok lets start with these

"Is the brave Ser Onion so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart ,then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though…a man whose flames still burn hot and high…if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."

A couple of things here we know how Melissandre makes the shadow babies.She draws light from them to cast their shadows as assassins.She goes on to say that she's not going to draw anymore from Stannis because his light(life fire ) is low and it might kill him.Coincidentally this is evidence againt the blue eyed king in Dany's vision being Stannis.Stannis still has some light left to make another son though it might kill him.The king in Dany's vision has no shadow ergo he is already dead, thus his shadow has already been used up.We have seen how they are used in this series (Shadowbinding)

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow."

( Armstark i'll be ack to finish this,but i wanted to keep this here so i won't forget.)

Editing in process:

JNR if you are reading can you summerize your theory for a bit of reference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Pumpkin said:

Last Greenseer could be, contextually, as Last President. Or Last King. The Last King meaning; the one we had before this one. Not necessarily the last as in the final.

 

Yes, I agree.

 

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ohhh good thank you for bringing that up that was lost in the melee.

Ok lets start with these

"Is the brave Ser Onion so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart ,then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though…a man whose flames still burn hot and high…if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."

A couple of things here we know how Melissandre makes the shadow babies.She draws light from them to cast their shadows as assassins.She goes on to say that she's not going to draw anymore from Stannis because his light(life fire ) is low and it might kill him.Coincidentally this is evidence againt the blue eyed king in Dany's vision being Stannis.Stannis still has some light left to make another son though it might kill him.The king in Dany's vision has no shadow ergo he is already dead, thus his shadow has already been used up.We have seen how they are used in this series (Shadowbinding)

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow."

( Armstark i'll be ack to finish this,but i wanted to keep this here so i won't forget.)

Editing in process

If Jon is dead, then this could be him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Armstark said:

I think the wildlings would have (and maybe have) resisted all efforts to bring them into the realm. They do not kneel.

Indeed, but its hard to avoid the impression from their vehemence [or at least those who express themselves along those lines] that they aren't simply homesteaders looking for land of their own but because their forefathers were failed and even betrayed by their lords. In the kind of society we're looking at the relationship between lords and men wasn't supposed to be one sided, and we actually see this in the chapter when Jon is acknowledged as King by the wildlings, who pledge him their allegiance in return for his protection.

Way back in the Long Night the hundred kingdoms took a battering. A lot of kings failed their people; whether they died in battle or froze in their castles, or simply ran away, all those kings beyond where the Wall now stands failed in their primary duty of protecting their people. Those who we know as wildlings are the descendents of those who survived, despite the failure of those they had once knelt to. Its little wonder that after such a betrayal - sealed by their being abandoned beyond the Wall - they should resist any suggestion of kneeling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, TheMiddleHero said:

I have to double check, but I am not sure Bloodraven is ever directly said to be the last greenseer. It seems to be mentioned in context when asking who the 3EC is.

ADwD 13 [Bran 2] "The last greenseer, the singers called him, but to Bran..." [italicisation per GRRM's text]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lord Pumpkin said:

Last Greenseer could be, contextually, as Last President. Or Last King. The Last King meaning; the one we had before this one. Not necessarily the last as in the final.

Since he's still pretending to be alive and Bran hasn't yet taken up his mantle, its most easily read as the last remaining one; hence his hanging on so long waiting for his successor to turn up and release him from the curse so that he can finally die.

As I said before, where I'm still inclined to question the designation is as to whether he really really is the last one and only greenseer [honest], or whether he's the last human greenseer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 19.4.2016 at 7:59 PM, Black Crow said:

 

Welcome to Heresy :commie:

I can understand the use of the term embrace and think its a perfectly acceptable term in the circumstances. In the context I don't think that its necessary to search for a hidden meaning. Bran is dreaming. Bran is dreaming of flying, or rather falling. He sees the bones of other dreamers and is unequivocally told that will be his fate too if he doesn't fly. So he flies. They didn't.

 

As to the completely different thought on one of the Gardiner kings. I don't remember that passage. That's not to say I don't believe it ; simply that not remembering it I can't comment with any authority on that particular passage other than to point out that the stories are littered with references to necromancy - the Barrow Kings being a prominent example - and that the Andals may have been welcomed and the three-fingered tree-huggers forced to flee precisely because it put an end to such nonsense

Thanks again :)

My mother tongue isn't English, so it happens that I  find perfectly acceptable terms as sounding out of place. Thanks for your opinion.
I still wonder what "not beeing able to fly" and falling in that situation actually means. What would have happened to Bran if he did not fly? Would his mind have been trapped (impaled) or would it have died and with it, later on his body as well? 

 

As to mentioning raising the dead. It really is just that one sentence in the  world book.  We are not given more information. I found it interesting, because the other references to necromancy in the world book (in westeros) are usually more veiled. Like that information about the Barrow kings who became corpse like in appearance. This instance really meantiones raising a dead army for fighting purposes. Of course, if the long night happened before the Andal invasion, everybody would know the stories of the long night and its armies and it would be easy to make up this story to take advantage of the king. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never apologise for English as good as this - especially when my own grasp of other languages is so limited.

As to Bran, who can say? At the time he was in a coma and I think at the very least the implication is that he would never awake from it if he did not fly.

Thanks for the clarification on that passage about raising the dead. I think that what might be significant here is that while we're told that the Barrow Kings practiced necromancy it sounds like it was a one to one business. On the other hand your Gardener King wanted a whole army and hired a woods witch to raise him one. The question then is whether that woods witch was human or one of the three-fingered tree-huggers, and if the latter that's another pointer to them being the people who can raise armies of wights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Never apologise for English as good as this - especially when my own grasp of other languages is so limited.

As to Bran, who can say? At the time he was in a coma and I think at the very least the implication is that he would never awake from it if he did not fly.

Thanks for the clarification on that passage about raising the dead. I think that what might be significant here is that while we're told that the Barrow Kings practiced necromancy it sounds like it was a one to one business. On the other hand your Gardener King wanted a whole army and hired a woods witch to raise him one. The question then is whether that woods witch was human or one of the three-fingered tree-huggers, and if the latter that's another pointer to them being the people who can raise armies of wights.

Thanks for the compliment :)

Yes, I think Bran would just have faded away getting weaker and weaker and then died, but he was in a coma already. Which is interesting in itself. We have Bran in a coma, Arya blind, and (in the World Book) Valyrian followers of the blind god on Lorath who believed that being blind would help you open your " third eye". And then of course BR (and those children in one room) not really being aware of their bodies  and their self anymore. It seems it is easier to reach higher magic if your are less aware of your "real" body and senses until the point were you give yourself up. 

 

It's really a shame that there was no further mention or description of the woods witch. Still, I think it likely, that somebody called a woods witch in pre Andal times, would either be a COF or be a human closely connected to them. After all its the time when COF still lived in forrests in the south. But then, thats only speculation without any factual basis. It just brings up a possible connection between COF and wights. 
Now, the barrow kings and their corpse like appearance is very fascinating (especially as Yandel dismissed that bit of information :) )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Tanngrisnir said:

Yes, I think Bran would just have faded away getting weaker and weaker and then died, but he was in a coma already. Which is interesting in itself. We have Bran in a coma, Arya blind, and (in the World Book) Valyrian followers of the blind god on Lorath who believed that being blind would help you open your " third eye". And then of course BR (and those children in one room) not really being aware of their bodies  and their self anymore. It seems it is easier to reach higher magic if your are less aware of your "real" body and senses until the point were you give yourself up. 

Very much so. In earlier discussions ranging over various examples we have rather come to the conclusion that sensory deprivation is necessary to open the third eye - and if I may be permitted a little smugness we heretics worked that one out long before the World Book and the followers of the Blind God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Tanngrisnir said:

It's really a shame that there was no further mention or description of the woods witch. Still, I think it likely, that somebody called a woods witch in pre Andal times, would either be a COF or be a human closely connected to them. After all its the time when COF still lived in forests in the south. But then, thats only speculation without any factual basis. It just brings up a possible connection between COF and wights. 
Now, the barrow kings and their corpse like appearance is very fascinating (especially as Yandel dismissed that bit of information :) )

I think that equating the woods witch with one of the three-fingered tree-huggers is a reasonable inference and one which draws a distinction between a woods witch in the forest and old Goody O'Grumpety in the cottage down the lane, and yes the further inference of a connection to the wights implying in turn that the "inhuman Children" and the "inhuman Others" are one and the same.

As to the Barrow Kings and their supposed corpse-like appearance that rather depends on what it really means. I doubt that they looked like wights or anything else out of a zombie apocalypse, but rather had the white skins of those who shun sunlight and in that connection its worth noting that Yandel suggests that the white lady who seduced the Nights King was referred to as a corpse queen not because she was a walker [who aint dead in any case] but a princess from amongst the Barrow lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Night's Queen wasn't referred to as the NK's "corpse queen" because she's a Barrow Princess, that is meant to be the more reasonable alternative interpretation that the skeptical maesters in the WB suggest--which should be a red flag, since the Barrow Kings are never mentioned in the primary text, and the more skeptical maesters - at least as regards the higher mysteries - seem to frequently be on the wrong side in their interpretations.

Old Nan's version is that she was a woman with skin as white as the moon, eyes like blue stars, and that she was cold to the touch; across the board, these are things we are meant to associate with wights, white walkers, and possibly their master(s). In particular, the phrase "blue stars" is used on several occasions to refer to the eyes of the wights, and whatever is collecting Craster's sons. Even the WB section on the Night's King says she was a sorceress that was 'pale as a corpse,' before giving us the skeptical alternative of the maesters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/04/2016 at 4:10 PM, Black Crow said:

Bran hasn't knowingly seen one, although there was that chamber full of seemingly dead singers in the tree-roots, some of whom opened their eyes. Bear in mind though that in the darkness of the caves identifying them by eye-colour isn't exactly easy.

Likewise although Bloodraven is referred to as the greenseer and the last greenseer, some of us in these here parts are inclined to suspect that he is the last human greenseer, providing the three-fingered tree-huggers with a window into the world of men.

going back to this passage:

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

 

They 'linger long indeed'. Considering the CotF time span, it would not be surprising if at least dead CotF greenseers are able to influence events.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

The Night's Queen wasn't referred to as the NK's "corpse queen" because she's a Barrow Princess, that is meant to be the more reasonable alternative interpretation that the skeptical maesters in the WB suggest--which should be a red flag, since the Barrow Kings are never mentioned in the primary text, and the more skeptical maesters - at least as regards the higher mysteries - seem to frequently be on the wrong side in their interpretations.

Old Nan's version is that she was a woman with skin as white as the moon, eyes like blue stars, and that she was cold to the touch; across the board, these are things we are meant to associate with wights, white walkers, and possibly their master(s). In particular, the phrase "blue stars" is used on several occasions to refer to the eyes of the wights, and whatever is collecting Craster's sons. Even the WB section on the Night's King says she was a sorceress that was 'pale as a corpse,' before giving us the skeptical alternative of the maesters.

While the Barrow Kings aren't mentioned in the early text, we do have the barrows and Barrowtown. I agree that Old Nan's initial description is not unlike that of Craster's boys, but Old Nan also goes on to refer to the white lady as the "corpse queen" and we do have GRRM's firm statement that the walkers "are not dead". Old Nan's story is not to be read as an historical document, especially since GRRM [in apparently repudiating the appearance of the gent in the mummers' version] refers to the Nights King as a figure out of legend - and legends get improved over the years. Yandel's interpretation, penned of course by GRRM is a reasonable one.

In any case, the point remains that the Barrow Kings were reputed necromancers and the World Book gives the impression there was a lot of it about until the Andals tooled up and put a finish to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

They 'linger long indeed'. Considering the CotF time span, it would not be surprising if at least dead CotF greenseers are able to influence events.

 

:agree: As is said elsewhere, some say that they are the Old Gods

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Back in Heresy 183, Armstark put this question

Well, not to get into the whole skinchanging/warging debate again but what do you think of Borroq? Is he a skinchanger or warg?

Sorry to take so long to respond but i did not have access to the text these past few days.

The text clearly states that 'warg' is a term given by wildlings to those who skinchange with wolves or direwolves. What i still wonder is if the regular skinchanging bond is the same as the warg bond.

We get much insight into the warg bond of the Starklings, and in the Dance prologue, Haggon tells V6 that the wolf is part of him and he is part of the wolf and that they will both change. All consistent.

There is not much text elaborating on the nature of non warg skinchanging. Perhaps it is the same bond. Perhaps not, refer this bit of text, again from V6 recalling Haggon ' he taught me the way of the warg and the secrets of the skinchanger'.

Perhaps there is a hint there of some difference. Don't know.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

While the Barrow Kings aren't mentioned in the early text, we do have the barrows and Barrowtown. I agree that Old Nan's initial description is not unlike that of Craster's boys, but Old Nan also goes on to refer to the white lady as the "corpse queen" and we do have GRRM's firm statement that the walkers "are not dead"

GRRM in his 1993 letter talked about 'the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn'

I thought that in this statement the 'neverborn' where the White Walkers. Am i mistaken or are the walkers classified here as nerverborn and there as 'not dead'?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

While the Barrow Kings aren't mentioned in the early text, we do have the barrows and Barrowtown. I agree that Old Nan's initial description is not unlike that of Craster's boys, but Old Nan also goes on to refer to the white lady as the "corpse queen" and we do have GRRM's firm statement that the walkers "are not dead". Old Nan's story is not to be read as an historical document, especially since GRRM [in apparently repudiating the appearance of the gent in the mummers' version] refers to the Nights King as a figure out of legend - and legends get improved over the years.

The fact that it's a bit of oral mythology is the precise reason that things like "corpse queen" need not be read literally, and can instead be painting an evocative picture; just because she became a corpse queen in legend does not mean she was actually a corpse, nor that the storytellers themselves would even know that the walkers are, according to GRRM, not dead.

The point remains that we're meant to associate the Night's Queen with ice sorcery, as she holds all of the typical markers. Personally, since their relationship so strongly echoes Melisandre's relationship with Stannis, and the WB describes her as a sorceress, I'm inclined to view her as being neither wight nor white walker, but instead one of their masters--be it a sorceress from the line of the Barrow Kings, or a member of another one of the old races, as Voice would speculate.

As for the show's Night's King, GRRM didn't repudiate it, he gave a typically meaningless answer to a fan question: that the Night's King is no more likely to be alive than Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever. A repudiation would be "No, the Night's King isn't still around, and isn't leading the army of the slain."
 

 

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 Yandel's interpretation, penned of course by GRRM is a reasonable one.


Sure, but ASOIAF, like Old Nan's tale, is also not a historical document, but a fairy tale. What would be a reasonable explanation for a legend in our world is often the "wrong" approach to the legends in ASOIAF; it's similarly reasonable of the Maesters to speculate that the WWs were just desperate men who become monsters in the legends, or to doubt that ravens originally passed messages via skinchanging, but in this case we know that the reasonable interpretation is wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...