Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Armstark said:

But if we go with Maester Aemon our propheciesed hero will fight the Others so Castle Black and the Black Brother are then the good guys and not the bad guys like Aegon the Conquerer thought Harrenhal and Black Harren were.

I'm not at all convinced that Maester Aemon thought the prophesied hero would fight the Others - specifically. I think it fairer to say that he certainly numbered them among the legions of Hell, but that's not the same thing as pronouncing them the enemy. I think, that like Mormont, he recognises the signs and sees them as harbingers of the war to come but I remain far from convinced that the outcome of this war waged since time began is going to devolve on a single hero in a tiny corner of Westeros. Sure there will be a climactic battle at Winterfell, but one involving all the disparate families and factions coming together.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Armstark said:

Funnily enough this leads me to Bloodraven and Bittersteel who are some of the best candidates for reverse-engineering the prophecies..

The Blackfyre sigil had the Targaryen colors inverted and Bittersteel's sigil was a stallion with dragonwings again with the colors inverted, red and black.

Their conflict was about who the true heir to the bloodline is and thus who could bring back dragons and fulfill the prophecy. Not coincidentally the Targaryen female line ends or rather continues with Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel married his first daughter.

Har... missed that one. Sounds very like Danaerys the Dragonlord's vision in the House of the Undying of a tall lord with copper skin and silver hair bearing the banner of a fiery stallion 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The Dothraki as some type of skinchangers is an interesting thought. The affinity there amongst the horde is strong. A few thoughts spanning these notions -  When the First Men came to Westeros, they came riding horses while bearing Bronze swords. I think it has been suggested that the FM were some part of the same culture who are now the Dothraki; the copper men. The men who crossed the Narrow Sea with their horses (which the Dothraki fear to do) are the bronze men. These First Men blazed a new age into Westeros, advancing the civilization. 

Could it be that the ones who left Essos had the same relationship with their horses, or even a stronger one? I'm speculating here because of the question of the First Men becoming skinchangers in Westeros, which is said to be in the blood. And if the seed for skinchanging was there for these men, then arriving in Westeros would encourage  the 'germination.'  

Possibly there was a similar situation for the Valyrians too although they were supposedly shepherds, not horselords. (lamb men, MMD, pyre, cough - cough)

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

The Dothraki as some type of skinchangers is an interesting thought...

I'm very wary of extending the catalogue of skinchangers. There is certainly an affinity between the Dothraki and their horses but it really isn't the same thing. Rather I'd suggest such affinities exist when men [and women] live in close communion with their animals, rather than apart, in cities and the like. Then, when the time comes those already possessed of such an affinity are obviously going to be very much more susceptible to approaches from direwolves or other actual skinchangers. 

[Melifeather]

First Men very well could have been Dothraki and came to Westeros on horseback riding over across the Arm of Dorne. The breaking of the Arm could be the source of the Dothraki fear of the Narrow Sea, and the source of Brandon and Lyanna's own horsemanship. Interesting to consider.

[Black Crow]

I don't have a problem with the First Men - or at least some of them such as the Ryswells - being related to the Dothraki, but I do think its a bit of a stretch to see that connection from the land or long long ago being a deliberately planted explanation for Lyanna Stark being a good horsewoman.

ETA: apologies all if this and my previous post sound a bit negative, but I think that a possible Dothraki connection [if it exists] falls within GRRM's random world-building, rather than having any carefully crafted relevance to what's going on now, especially as there wasn't even a whisper of it in the world book.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't have a problem with the First Men - or at least some of them such as the Ryswells - being related to the Dothraki, but I do think its a bit of a stretch to see that connection from the land or long long ago being a deliberately planted explanation for Lyanna Stark being a good horsewoman.

I'm with you, BC, on being cautious in how this connection is made. And the World Book does give me pause here - though generally speaking I don't credit that volume as much of a resource.

The problem in connecting the Dothraki to the First Men comes down to timelines. The First Men are said to have arrived in Westeros between 12-10k years ago. The Dothraki, per the World Book, only emerged ~1,000 years ago. And Jorah says they were living in holes in the ground just 400 years ago.  They only became a serious threat to anyone after the Doom. 

Which is not to say there is no connection.  I actually think there might well be one. But there's got to be some intermediate step... making the relationship somewhat indirect.

[Black Crow]

17 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I'm with you, BC, on being cautious in how this connection is made. And the World Book does give me pause here - though generally speaking I don't credit that volume as much of a resource.

The problem in connecting the Dothraki to the First Men comes down to timelines. The First Men are said to have arrived in Westeros between 12-10k years ago. The Dothraki, per the World Book, only emerged ~1,000 years ago. And Jorah says they were living in holes in the ground just 400 years ago.  They only became a serious threat to anyone after the Doom. 

Which is not to say there is no connection.  I actually think there might well be one. But there's got to be some intermediate step... making the relationship somewhat indirect.

I think that there's some useful stuff in the World Book, but on the whole I think that its largely a world building exercise; telling us about the history of the world of Ice and Fire, but without giving away much if anything about the present story.

A case in point is the Targaryens where GRRM is telling us so much about them not because they are as important to the story as some people proclaim, but rather because they aren't important [other than being Danaerys the Dragonlord's people] to the outcome and therefore GRRM has used the world book to tell their story rather than wander off in a massive digression from the on-going narrative.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Just now, Black Crow said:

I think that there's some useful stuff in the World Book, but on the whole I think that its largely a world building exercise; telling us about the history of the world of Ice and Fire, but without giving away much if anything about the present story.

A case in point is the Targaryens where GRRM is telling us so much about them not because they are as important to the story as some people proclaim, but rather because they aren't important [other than being Danaerys the Dragonlord's people] to the outcome and therefore GRRM has used the world book to tell their story rather than wander off in a massive digression from the on-going narrative.

Yes. I largely agree with you, there. I think he recognized high demand for more info on the Targs among his fans... and figured there was no harm (and no spoiler) in giving them what they wanted. I find the Targs themselves - at least, the already dead ones - more a curiosity, than anything. Rhaegar being the primary exception - I would like to know a bit more about Rhaegar.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

5 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

The Dothraki as some type of skinchangers is an interesting thought. The affinity there amongst the horde is strong. A few thoughts spanning these notions -  When the First Men came to Westeros, they came riding horses while bearing Bronze swords. I think it has been suggested that the FM were some part of the same culture who are now the Dothraki; the copper men. The men who crossed the Narrow Sea with their horses (which the Dothraki fear to do) are the bronze men. These First Men blazed a new age into Westeros, advancing the civilization. 

Could it be that the ones who left Essos had the same relationship with their horses, or even a stronger one? I'm speculating here because of the question of the First Men becoming skinchangers in Westeros, which is said to be in the blood. And if the seed for skinchanging was there for these men, then arriving in Westeros would encourage  the 'germination.'  

Possibly there was a similar situation for the Valyrians too although they were supposedly shepherds, not horselords. (lamb men, MMD, pyre, cough - cough)

Good post, Flagons.  I do tend to think there's some significant connection to be drawn between the Dothraki and the First Men.  Possibly more than one.

At the moment, I'm inclined to guess any such connection runs through... Asshai.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Yes. I largely agree with you, there. I think he recognized high demand for more info on the Targs among his fans... and figured there was no harm (and no spoiler) in giving them what they wanted. I find the Targs themselves - at least, the already dead ones - more a curiosity, than anything. Rhaegar being the primary exception - I would like to know a bit more about Rhaegar.

True, but then again he's dead and was dead before this tale of honest country-folk began, and I have to say that once again I'm starting to lean towards his being a red herring and fingering Ser Arthur Dayne as Jon's father. Internet forums or no internet forums Rhaegar just strikes me as too obvious.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Good post, Flagons.  I do tend to think there's some significant connection to be drawn between the Dothraki and the First Men.  Possibly more than one.

At the moment, I'm inclined to guess any such connection runs through... Asshai.

But is it going to be important?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I have to say that once again I'm starting to lean towards his being a red herring... Internet forums or no internet forums Rhaegar just strikes me as too obvious.

 

Makes good sense, to me.  

I'm more interested in Rhaegar's opinions on prophecy, anyway.  I doubt Rhaegar was Lyanna's type.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

35 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But is it going to be important?

Important? Relevant may be a better word. Possibly informative, in the sense that it might provide context in which certain things make better sense.

Of course, I'm speculating a bit. But if you look closely enough, it's not hard to find Asshai somewhere in the background of these cultural histories. Or connected with the prophecies.

[Black Crow]

50 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Makes good sense, to me.  

I'm more interested in Rhaegar's opinions on prophecy, anyway.  I doubt Rhaegar was Lyanna's type.

Yesss... from what little we're told of her, I can readily see her as a horsey type, dressed in tweeds, riding hard to hounds and making Brienne of Tarth look demure and ladylike.

Rhaegar on the other hand seems like a bit of a geek, who more readily associates dragons with dungeons and sees himself playing a role.

 

ETA: and with that to bed. Good night all.

[TheMiddleHero]

Couple of things I have been pondering and would like feedback from this thread.

 

1- With all the incest going on in this book. Would a Brandon + Lyanna = Jon seem out of the question (or ridiculous?) Could explain a great deal of Ned's shame and unwillingness to speak of it. Might also explain her dislike of her betrothal to Robert, being a possibly similar type of man. Could also explain her disappearing. As well as Jon's distinctly Northern appearance.

 

2- Another thought. Though I think it is Ned that is the KotLT. If it was Lyanna, and she did run away with Rheagar. Is it not possible she dressed in Rheagar's armor, and attempted to battle Robert herself?

 

Just a couple of quirky ideas I have going on. Is it just too much bourbon in me?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, TheMiddleHero said:

Couple of things I have been pondering and would like feedback from this thread.

 

1- With all the incest going on in this book. Would a Brandon + Lyanna = Jon seem out of the question (or ridiculous?) Could explain a great deal of Ned's shame and unwillingness to speak of it. Might also explain her dislike of her betrothal to Robert, being a possibly similar type of man. Could also explain her disappearing. As well as Jon's distinctly Northern appearance.

 

2- Another thought. Though I think it is Ned that is the KotLT. If it was Lyanna, and she did run away with Rheagar. Is it not possible she dressed in Rheagar's armor, and attempted to battle Robert herself?

 

Just a couple of quirky ideas I have going on. Is it just too much bourbon in me?

Some could be blamed on the bourbon, maybe. The Brandon/Lyanna idea can be ruled out pretty quickly, based on accepted timelines. And to make it work, you'd have to move things around quite a bit. 

I agree with you that Ned was the KotLT.

[Black Crow]

Agreed on Brandon and Lyanna. Jon being the son of Lyanna is all that's required for his face

Not so sure about young Ned as the mystery knight. Its possible of course but I'm not sure that it actually achieves anything - open to the idea but need convincing as to the advantages

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Makes good sense, to me.  

I'm also intrigued by and looking forward to the mummers' take on the fight outside the tower.

So far as we can tell from the trailers its part of a series of visions which Bran is being guided through by Bloodraven. However if the object of the exercise is to reveal R+L=J, surely there's an easier and more direct scene; say for example the fabled wedding between Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark before a heart tree. Rightly or wrongly Ned's dream is seen as a coded message, but audiences don't do code. Explicit is everything. So why then reveal Jon's parentage with a battle which focuses prominently on one Ser Arthur Dayne? I could be entirely wrong of course and we'll find that out very soon, but its intriguing.

[Melifeather]

There is some symbolism to consider in one of the inversion chapters that seems to suggest that Arthur is the father of Lyanna's child.  It happens in The Queenmaker in AFFC chapter 21:

Darkstar gets Arianne’s attention by calling her Princess. He stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow:

“How was your piss?” she asks. 

“The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue of the Maiden who’s likeness had been scoured away by the sands. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.
 

 

The passage says, Dayne had his foot upon the head of the maiden! GRRM is using just the last name, “Dayne” so I believe he is telling us that he is pointing his finger directly at Arthur here. 

The statue head is meant to evoke a human skull. The most common symbolic use of the skull is a representation of death and mortality. Our author is telling us that Arthur is to blame for Lyanna’s death. Even more telling is the use of the foot on the skull. Our feet have direct contact with mother earth, and a foot inside a shoe is a euphemism for the genitals with the foot representing the penis and the shoe the vulva. Is this symbolic evidence that Dayne is Arthur and he is the father of Lyanna’s child?