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What the show got better than the books


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9 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I am saying I literally cannot understand what causes you to think that way, which is a new thing for me. 

I honestly can't understand any of these posters. I am quite shocked to see so many people not liking the books. Because, if you honestly think the show is better than the books at anything, then you really have to dislike the books. You have to hate them.

For example, I really can't understand what's so special about Rodrik's death scene in the show. Besides Alfie who's his usual good as Theon and Isaac as Bran who nailed it, even the acting is not that good, with Luwin so wooden it hurts and with Rodrik so poorly directed (had someone bothered to remove his face from the shot when he's not speaking, he'd be decent enough). Everything else in that scene is mediocre at best. But okay, let's say people like the scene and it's just me who's trolling. But how can anyone say it's better than the corresponding scene in the books? LOL! Do people even remember how Rodrik died in the books? In the books Theon's negotiating with him threatening to hang his daughter while keeping her on improvised gallows. Thus putting Rodrik in an impossible choice. Just imagine seeing that on screen: Rodrik negotiating with Theon while watching his own daughter with a noose around her neck! And then comes Ramsay with his army, and Rodrik thinks they're gonna help him, but Ramsay actually turns on him and slaughters all Rodrik's men. And then goes on to kill all of Theon's men too and burn Winterfell. So if anyone thinks that Rodrik's death from the show is better than this scene from the books, then I can only conclude that you don't like the books at all.

The same goes for Arya&Tywin. Again, I didn't enjoy those scenes at all, but never mind, let's say they are good scenes. But they can't even compare to Arya's Harrenhall days in the books. She's literally fighting for her life literally every day. And everything is extremely cinematic. Even her litany is. If translated to screen faithfully, those scenes would be so powerful. Instead we got Arya chatting with Tywin which eventually leads nowhere just like it never could.

And these two are the least problematic examples. I'm really speechless at Talisa. Does someone really think that she is an improvement over anything in any way??? I mean, what does improvement actually mean for these people? Is Talisa "better" than Jeyne because she has more screen time than Jayne has page time??? LOL!!!

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16 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I honestly can't understand any of these posters. I am quite shocked to see so many people not liking the books. Because, if you honestly think the show is better than the books at anything, then you really have to dislike the books. You have to hate them.

 

That statement makes no sense at all. You can like both, but recognise when one has done something better than the other.

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Opening map sequence and music I truly love, it really drew me into the show and it still lifts me when I hear the opening music. Casting has been terrific with Charles dance and Stephen Dillane and Mark Addy and Dinklage being iconic to me topped by Sean Beans portrayal of Ned. Female characters being older, in some instances I found to be quite a relief whilst watching in certain scenes. Barristans earlier reveal and Daario heading the second sons rather than the  stormcrows because they are more relevant numerically. Simplification of the Meerenees Knot because I want Daenerys and Tyrion In Westeros. That's all.

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

I honestly can't understand any of these posters. I am quite shocked to see so many people not liking the books. Because, if you honestly think the show is better than the books at anything, then you really have to dislike the books. You have to hate them.

For example, I really can't understand what's so special about Rodrik's death scene in the show. Besides Alfie who's his usual good as Theon and Isaac as Bran who nailed it, even the acting is not that good, with Luwin so wooden it hurts and with Rodrik so poorly directed (had someone bothered to remove his face from the shot when he's not speaking, he'd be decent enough). Everything else in that scene is mediocre at best. But okay, let's say people like the scene and it's just me who's trolling. But how can anyone say it's better than the corresponding scene in the books? LOL! Do people even remember how Rodrik died in the books? In the books Theon's negotiating with him threatening to hang his daughter while keeping her on improvised gallows. Thus putting Rodrik in an impossible choice. Just imagine seeing that on screen: Rodrik negotiating with Theon while watching his own daughter with a noose around her neck! And then comes Ramsay with his army, and Rodrik thinks they're gonna help him, but Ramsay actually turns on him and slaughters all Rodrik's men. And then goes on to kill all of Theon's men too and burn Winterfell. So if anyone thinks that Rodrik's death from the show is better than this scene from the books, then I can only conclude that you don't like the books at all.

The same goes for Arya&Tywin. Again, I didn't enjoy those scenes at all, but never mind, let's say they are good scenes. But they can't even compare to Arya's Harrenhall days in the books. She's literally fighting for her life literally every day. And everything is extremely cinematic. Even her litany is. If translated to screen faithfully, those scenes would be so powerful. Instead we got Arya chatting with Tywin which eventually leads nowhere just like it never could.

And these two are the least problematic examples. I'm really speechless at Talisa. Does someone really think that she is an improvement over anything in any way??? I mean, what does improvement actually mean for these people? Is Talisa "better" than Jeyne because she has more screen time than Jayne has page time??? LOL!!!

Really? I love the books and show but I am able to compare both and recognise both have faults and both are better due to the medium in which the story is told.  Anyone who fails to recognise this is clealy biased on either side.

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2 hours ago, StepStark said:

I honestly can't understand any of these posters. I am quite shocked to see so many people not liking the books. Because, if you honestly think the show is better than the books at anything, then you really have to dislike the books. You have to hate them.

 

Really?!

you take away so much from your pleasure if you are so absolute about one or the other! I may have issues with both an yet I love both,

There is a whole thread where posters count as traitors if they dare to like anything in the show. I have been annoyed by so much arrogance but by now I only pity the posters there who dedicate so much of their time to negativity instead of having fun. Worse: they enjoy dedicating their life to negativity. Well....enjoy

i like the characterization of Cersei so much better in the show. She is not cartoonishly evil but a mother who loves her kids. She does not fit into the cliché of saintly madonnalike mother who has no ambition of her own. She is no monster, she is a parent who fails, a ruthless politician who has little compunctions, a desperate lover. She is relatable person, more than in the books. 

Tywin! Charles Dance!

Jorah! Ian Glen!

Tyrion's confession! I laughed tears! Dinklage in general!

And Dany's wedding night is so much more believable in the series than in the books! A shy thirteen year old enjoying her own rape and abuse. Given what we see in the news today  It was a mistake by Martin to romanticize the wedding night scene. We know better now and we did not think about forced marriages back then when it was still some kind of exotic custom. The book has been written many years ago and by now we are much more aware of rape and abduction of girls, given what IS and Boko Haram did and continue to do. Today I guess Martin would have gone the way of the show and would have been very clear about what was done to Dany. Imagine the - justified - outrage if the show had romanticized the forced consummation at the wedding night in light of present day political events and fanaticism hatred of women! 

But Dany taking charge of her fate and relating to Drogo is believable in both books and show, she has been characterized as resilient and strong.

 

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

I honestly can't understand any of these posters. I am quite shocked to see so many people not liking the books. Because, if you honestly think the show is better than the books at anything, then you really have to dislike the books. You have to hate them.

For example, I really can't understand what's so special about Rodrik's death scene in the show. Besides Alfie who's his usual good as Theon and Isaac as Bran who nailed it, even the acting is not that good, with Luwin so wooden it hurts and with Rodrik so poorly directed (had someone bothered to remove his face from the shot when he's not speaking, he'd be decent enough). Everything else in that scene is mediocre at best. But okay, let's say people like the scene and it's just me who's trolling. But how can anyone say it's better than the corresponding scene in the books? LOL! Do people even remember how Rodrik died in the books? In the books Theon's negotiating with him threatening to hang his daughter while keeping her on improvised gallows. Thus putting Rodrik in an impossible choice. Just imagine seeing that on screen: Rodrik negotiating with Theon while watching his own daughter with a noose around her neck! And then comes Ramsay with his army, and Rodrik thinks they're gonna help him, but Ramsay actually turns on him and slaughters all Rodrik's men. And then goes on to kill all of Theon's men too and burn Winterfell. So if anyone thinks that Rodrik's death from the show is better than this scene from the books, then I can only conclude that you don't like the books at all.

The same goes for Arya&Tywin. Again, I didn't enjoy those scenes at all, but never mind, let's say they are good scenes. But they can't even compare to Arya's Harrenhall days in the books. She's literally fighting for her life literally every day. And everything is extremely cinematic. Even her litany is. If translated to screen faithfully, those scenes would be so powerful. Instead we got Arya chatting with Tywin which eventually leads nowhere just like it never could.

And these two are the least problematic examples. I'm really speechless at Talisa. Does someone really think that she is an improvement over anything in any way??? I mean, what does improvement actually mean for these people? Is Talisa "better" than Jeyne because she has more screen time than Jayne has page time??? LOL!!!

Good points all, very good points, but I could fill an encyclopaedia with all the things the books do better than the show, I just tried to think of the things the show did better, to me there is not many, but after 60 hours I found a couple of things, sound score and casting, but I guess the books had none of that anyway.:(

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7 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Really?!

you take away so much from your pleasure if you are so absolute about one or the other! I may have issues with both an yet I love both,

There is a whole thread where posters count as traitors if they dare to like anything in the show. I have been annoyed by so much arrogance but by now I only pity the posters there who dedicate so much of their time to negativity instead of having fun. Worse: they enjoy dedicating their life to negativity. Well....enjoy

i like the characterization of Cersei so much better in the show. She is not cartoonishly evil but a mother who loves her kids. She does not fit into the cliché of saintly madonnalike mother who has no ambition of her own. She is no monster, she is a parent who fails, a ruthless politician who has little compunctions, a desperate lover. She is relatable person, more than in the books. 

Tywin! Charles Dance!

Jorah! Ian Glen!

Tyrion's confession! I laughed tears! Dinklage in general!

And Dany's wedding night is so much more believable in the series than in the books! It was a mistake by Martin to romanticize the wedding night scene. A shy thirteen year old enjoying her own rape and abuse.

I thought that Tyrion's confession was hilarious when I read it for the first time, but it's even better in the Show.

I agree about Cersei.  I think that the Battle of Blackwater was even more gripping in the Show than in ACOK.  I prefer the simplification of the Meereenese storyline.  I loved the interaction between Tywin and Arya at Harrenhall.  I think Tywin, Joffrey, and the High Sparrow are all portrayed better as main characters than as  characters we see through the eyes of other people.

But, in general I prefer the books.

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15 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Really?!

you take away so much from your pleasure if you are so absolute about one or the other! I may have issues with both an yet I love both,

There is a whole thread where posters count as traitors if they dare to like anything in the show. I have been annoyed by so much arrogance but by now I only pity the posters there who dedicate so much of their time to negativity instead of having fun. Worse: they enjoy dedicating their life to negativity. Well....enjoy

i like the characterization of Cersei so much better in the show. She is not cartoonishly evil but a mother who loves her kids. She does not fit into the cliché of saintly madonnalike mother who has no ambition of her own. She is no monster, she is a parent who fails, a ruthless politician who has little compunctions, a desperate lover. She is relatable person, more than in the books. 

Tywin! Charles Dance!

Jorah! Ian Glen!

Tyrion's confession! I laughed tears! Dinklage in general!

And Dany's wedding night is so much more believable in the series than in the books! It was a mistake by Martin to romanticize the wedding night scene. A shy thirteen year old enjoying her own rape and abuse.

It might sound crazy, but some people think Cersei in the books isn't cartoonishly evil, and has depth to her character. Being a terrible person doesn't make you cartoonish, and depth doesn't necessarily mean having good traits.

I find it 100% more refreshing to see Cersei as a mother who may love her children, but does it in a completely narcissistic way most of the time. It's complex; sometimes she feels as though she really cares about them; sometimes you see thta she only means to use them and rule through them. 

Charles Dance is a great actor ; doesn't mean they had to shoe-horn him into every scene just because : Charles Dance ! His scene with Arya were beyond ridiculous, just as his infamous scene with Cersei in s4.

Dinklage has been phoning it since season 3 (at least). Can't blame him though, his character is bland as fuck.

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Quote

It might sound crazy....

?

No, why? This is your  valid opinion, why should this be crazy. I have read others saying that focusing so much on Cersei as mother and less on Cersei as villainous is wrong. Neither are crazy opinions but simply opinions different from mine, don't worry, not crazy but different.

And, what we think about characters and how we see them tells far more about ourselves than about the character concerned.

i have children and of course I can relate to the topic of parenting gone wrong and more or less emphasis on it, maybe more than  some others can. This only shows how wonderfully the fictional character of Cersei has been invented in the books and what great possibilities of interpretation it offers.

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I think its perfectly reasonable to like both, and criticise both. Only the most one sighted of people would suggest either is perfect or either is all bad, and when they do, well you can't take them very seriously

As I've said many times, both formats have to aim for different things. The books can afford to be slower and more complex (sometimes too drawn out and too complex) and the show has to hit a wide ranging audience so often has to simplify and dumb down (somtimes too simple and too dumb).

I think there are plenty of things I preferred about the show, and plenty of things I preferred about the books. 

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2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think its perfectly reasonable to like both, and criticise both. Only the most one sighted of people would suggest either is perfect or either is all bad, and when they do, well you can't take them very seriously

As I've said many times, both formats have to aim for different things. The books can afford to be slower and more complex (sometimes too drawn out and too complex) and the show has to hit a wide ranging audience so often has to simplify and dumb down (somtimes too simple and too dumb).

I think there are plenty of things I preferred about the show, and plenty of things I preferred about the books. 

I'm pretty sure this sane post qualifies you as some kind of witch who must now be put to forum death.  We can't have considerate reasonable thought getting out of control around here.  

We likes our posts heaping with irrational fanboy outrage and dripping with internet heroism and total rejection of discussion.  To the stake!

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6 minutes ago, TheLeviathan73 said:

I'm pretty sure this sane post qualifies you as some kind of witch who must now be put to forum death.  We can't have considerate reasonable thought getting out of control around here.  

We likes our posts heaping with irrational fanboy outrage and dripping with internet heroism and total rejection of discussion.  To the stake!

Its ok, I'll go burn myself, save everyone the trouble.

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3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Really?!

you take away so much from your pleasure if you are so absolute about one or the other! I may have issues with both an yet I love both,

There is a whole thread where posters count as traitors if they dare to like anything in the show. I have been annoyed by so much arrogance but by now I only pity the posters there who dedicate so much of their time to negativity instead of having fun. Worse: they enjoy dedicating their life to negativity. Well....enjoy

Well said.

In the show, I liked:

- Getting to see more of Robert Baratheon. Robert and Cersei on their marriage holding the kingdoms together. The first kills scene with Barristan, Jaime and Lancel. "Surrounded by Lannisters. Every time I close my eyes I see their blonde hair and their smug, satisfied faces." 

- Theon struggling a bit more with betraying Robb. I liked the scene where he was writing Robb a letter and then burned it. Also his dialogue with Ramsay where he says had a choice and he chose wrong and that his real father died at King's Landing. Seeing so much remorse out of him before he had even really been tortured that badly made him a lot more sympathetic. 

- Podrick. As dark as the show has become, his mysterious skill with the ladies and complete lack of skill with horses and cooking is a welcome relief. I very much enjoyed seeing him roast rabbits with the skin on.

- Bronn being the one who trains Jaime's left hand. I enjoyed his book scenes with Ser Illyn because they served as a catharsis for him with his pent up anger over Cersei, but since the show has cut all that out, I like that he has Bronn to tell him some hard truths. 

- Jaqen being the Kindly Man. I only think this is better in the show because the actor who plays Jaqen is so good. The Kindly Man is just fine as himself in the book, but I was glad they stuck with that actor for the show.

I can't agree with Commando Stannis. That scene was a bit ridiculous. What's he doing - conquering the longest hallway in existence? He's fighting nonstop but never penetrates far enough into the castle for retreat to be a problem when it's clear they've lost. "Noooo! Stand and fight!" 

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Many things, but the three that stand out:

1. Hardhome

2. Tywin Lannister

3. Tyrion and Dany finally meeting

And IMO, the books and the show are excellent in their own rights and neither is 'better'.

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Not better, but perfect casting for Sean Bean as Eddard Stark.

 

I remember I started reading the books during season 1 and was about a chapter out before he gets his head lopped off, and it happened in the show first for me. Could not believe it.

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21 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm not bothering with the rest of the post because I literally cannot comprehend how someone who has read both can make those claims. I'm not saying I disagree, I am saying I literally cannot understand what causes you to think that way, which is a new thing for me.  

Just please explain how you can possibly say the bolded.  Because as opposed to Jon's entire story being about the sacrifices and individual decisions he is making to maintain the Watch, we have 2 and only 2 leadership decisions from Jon, one of which was also made in the books, and is present thematically in the books (meritocratic based assignments, which is why he promotes Thorne in show).  

I guess that and swinging a sword really fast are all leadership really is.

 

Mostly what I remember from Jon's chapters were long interludes where he was counting supplies and wringing his hands over getting the Wildlings through. It wasn't exactly boring, but there were lots of things that bothered me. I absolutely detested how they handled Mance (the glamour). I did not like that he abandoned post over fake Arya. I can't remember specifics of his decisions because I don't want to re-read those chapters just to provide a convincing argument for my opinion (which you won't understand anyway, because you are so deadset on the opinion that the books are untouchable and the show has no value).

What I liked about the show Jon, and the North in general:
 

-Hardhome was amazing.

-Mance was actually killed off, no stupid glamouring.

-I liked that Jon was more liberal about his vows and the vows of Sam.

-I liked how Jon interacted with Davos, Stannis and Mel.

-I loved the execution of Janos Slynt. It makes me smile how people were so upset that Jon didn't say "Edd, get me a block." I think "Olly, get me my sword" is a much better line.

-Speaking of which, I liked Jon the mentor and Olly.

-I liked how for the watch was done.

-I liked the stare off between Jon and Allister, and like the nature of Allister and Jon's interactions in general. People are hung up on the geography of the travel, but I find that to be an incredibly pedantic concern - on the level of people saying a show is ruined because someone used a flintlock musket rifle in 1750, and they were first used in 1768. I thought it was a really good cinematic moment.

I could go on, but will additionally add that whatever value you attribute to "themes" in the book, I likely don't care a fig for. I think themes are for eighth grade book reports, and so something being, in your opinion, "thematically significant" in a book is as persuasive to me as someone trying to convince me that evacuating one's bowels every morning has thematic significance.

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Yeah now I look at it it's easy to forget what an improvement Jons storyline is in general. I agree with all the above points.

Jons should be the most entertaining of all the book threads but in many ways it's the most tedious. Simply one task after another to perform, little momentum, and there's so many little problems for him to deal with its not very compelling.

The Mance situation was also a huge mis step, turning a respected leader into an undercover James Bond, with his team of Ninja women. I couldn't believe what I was reading. The glamour along with all the other fake deaths during those books lessened the power of every loss of life.

 

So by simplifying it, making it more about one single emotive issue you can get your head around, the show helped to create tension in the show that didn't exist in the book. 

Olly is much maligned and the telegraphing was obvious, but having him be the face of Wildlings racism was a good move. If it was Bowen marsh who summed up the prejudice you'd have a hard time empathising with it, dismissing him a just an old racist, but Olly has a reason to hate Wildlings.

yeah definite improvement 

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Yeah casting Sean Bean to do what Sean Bean does best was a good call.

Also was aging up all characters, I think GRRM himslef would do it if he had the chance to start the series again and don't get caught up with the "5 years gap" plan that never happened.

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