What the show got better than the books

[TepidHands]

I have absolutely no idea what your'e on about. No one is criticising GC's performance. They're criticising the loss of the character we saw in Season 3 and her replacement with someone who never thinks of Jaime and never passes up an opportunity to smash something. 

Feel free to keep battling against shadows and strawmen, however. 

[dsug]

RIP thread

It was nice while it lasted

[Woman of War]

I like Ian Glen as Jorah.

He is in no way like book Jorah but we have an actor who can transport a complex mixture of emotions with one look. He underplays his character perfectly.

 Dinklage and him reciting that poem was awesome.

[JonSnow4President]

Honestly, I do like them having him a little less stalkerish in the show, which I think plays better personally.  Really comes down to personal preference on that one, because I don't think it really affects it from an adaptational basis (unless he has a big role coming I'm not seeing).  There's still some stalkery stuff there, but it's much more toned down.

[Jamie Lannister]

I think Thorne was a better character in the show until they tied him into the stabbing. Now he's just a slightly more villainous and inconsistent version of his book self.

[JonSnow4President]

4 minutes ago, Jamie Lannister said:

I think Thorne was a better character in the show until they tied him into the stabbing. Now he's just a slightly more villainous and inconsistent version of his book self.

This is one of those different but not necessarily worse.  I like show Thorne.  He's not book Thorne, but he's a much more redeemable character, with good points, and I think this is to serve beyond serious casting of additional NW leaders.  And as a result, they needed to treat him different.  They make him a real leader in the defense of the Watch, they make him admit he was wrong to Jon, and Jon naming him first ranger is a legitimate decision (book Thorne would be a terrible leader).  He's a more complex and enjoyable character in the show, and one of the things I think they did well (I don't need Mallister or Marsh or a Yarwyck with a real role besides saying "No"), even if they failed IMO with the greater adaptation of the Watch.

And his inclusion in the stabbing doesn't bother me nearly as much about what they make the stabbing about.  It's specifically about the Wildlings, rather than Jon's greater "oathbreaking." 

 

[LazyBazooka]

I like that we got to see more of Robb, I fucking love Richard Madden.

[RhaenysBee]

Cutting all the completely unnecessary and boring/annoying storylines from the books. No Quentyn, no Arianne, no Aeron, no Victarion, no Lady Stoneheart, no Harry the Heir and God bless them, no Jon Connington and no Penny. 

There are also many characters that work(ed) better in the show, such as Margaery, Tyrion, Shireen, Tywin, Jorah, Brienne (I still greatly dislike her, but she is admittedly better than the book version), Robb, Daenerys. 

Some of the storyline alterations/expansions worked better than the original ones too. Tyrion and Daenerys meeting, Arya and Tywin, Sansa, Myrcella, Joffrey and Margaery stuff, House of the Undying. 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

10 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I second that. As I said, I don't get the reasoning.

Neither do I. The implication is that Cersei - Pretty and Brienne - Ugly, therefore you'd only be with a Brienne if you weren't able to be with a Cersei, even though Cersei's crazy. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

On 4/18/2016 at 2:15 PM, Joan Jett said:

How?

Agreed 

[Desert Fox]

A lot of people underestimate how much of the books has to be cut to fit the show into ~9.2 hours a season. HBO gave S1 about 45 seconds of screen time per book page. S3 had about 66 seconds / book page. S5 had about 16 seconds per book page.

For a comparison, the A Game of Thrones audio book is 33 hours. AFFC/ADWD is 83 hours. The show did it in 9.

A fully faithful adaptation is not possible with a TV budget. This show is already the most expensive on TV and it's only 9 hours. Moreover, all adaptations involve interpretation. It's unavoidable since each reader interprets books very differently. There is no objective interpretation.

Hell, in the rare cases where authors get to adapt their OWN work it's often fairly different. The Perks of Being a Wallflower was adapted and directed by the author and he changed stuff up. The HBO show the Leftovers is co-written and produced by the author of the book and it's radically different.

 

[TheLeviathan73]

Back to the actual topic......

Ramsay Bolton has been part of some poorly written scenes and plots, but the character is far more engaging and believable than the book version.  He has actual dimensions and charisma rather than just being a smaller version of the Mountain.

[b09boy]

The age of the characters.

And that's really...about it.  Some stuff here is largely about the actor portrayal, but I think a lot of the things posted here ignore that by supposedly doing one thing better they do another a helluva lot worse.  For instance, yeah, Rodrick's beheading has more meaning than a blacksmith, but Rodrick also had a role left to play in the book which really put the pressure back on Theon and gave Ramsay a far better entrance.  Or cutting out much of Tyrion's story, which just so happens to coincide with cutting out two entire wars which themselves ARE interesting.

[Neds Secret]

3 hours ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Neither do I. The implication is that Cersei - Pretty and Brienne - Ugly, therefore you'd only be with a Brienne if you weren't able to be with a Cersei, even though Cersei's crazy. 

And his twin!

[Woman of War]

8 hours ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Neither do I. The implication is that Cersei - Pretty and Brienne - Ugly, therefore you'd only be with a Brienne if you weren't able to be with a Cersei, even though Cersei's crazy. 

 

If a man has three children with a woman, he has loved this woman all his life  - wouldn't he be quite an inconsiderate asshole if he gave  her up as soon as the first disillusionment sets in?

There is so much between Cersei and Jaime.  In real life we would condemn a man who dumps the mother of his three kids as soon as things get rough.

I of course see that Jaime is fed up with Cersei's self centered hypocrisy and with her politics. Yet erasing her and their common life without compunction would be cold hearted. I as woman would not wish any lover like that on any woman even if she herself  is ruthless and cruel.

So allowing Jaime to have difficulties with giving up Cersei does in no way invalidate his attempt of becoming a better  human being, on the contrary. Even if he sees in Brienne what he himself should have been, even if he loves her for this - walking out of a longtime former relationship without looking back rather makes him an asshole than  a redeemed person.

And it is consistent with Jaime's characterization that he has trouble deciding. I hope there will be some moment of recognition and love between Brienne and him but him choosing Brienne only because Cersei has kicked his ass and he is needy, that will never happen. Their relationship would have a quality of its own and not be defined by Cersei yes or no.

The breakup between Cersei and Jaime is inevitable. But when  I read how Jaime threw Cersei's letter into the flames I did not cheer, I disliked Jaime for it and I was annoyed that Martin had built this up as symbolic act. It made Jaime one more guy with a hurt ego because his woman cheated on him, petty, yawn. 

But maybe this is only the viewpoint of a woman who in real life has seen so many weak men around her dump their respective families, not caring about what they leave behind, that I have trouble to see book Jaime's approach as true  personal development.

The show did so far much better here with him being torn about Cersei.  Cersei's and Jaime's love story has been a painful and tragic story between two hugely interesting individuals. And Brienne's and Jaime's story will be.

 

[Neds Secret]

44 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

 

If a man has three children with a woman, he has loved this woman all his life  - wouldn't he be quite an inconsiderate asshole if he gave  her up as soon as the first disillusionment sets in?

There is so much between Cersei and Jaime.  In real life we would condemn a man who dumps the mother of his three kids as soon as things get rough.

I of course see that Jaime is fed up with Cersei's self centered hypocrisy and with her politics. Yet erasing her and their common life without compunction would be cold hearted. I as woman would not wish any lover like that on any woman even if she herself  is ruthless and cruel.

So allowing Jaime to have difficulties with giving up Cersei does in no way invalidate his attempt of becoming a better  human being, on the contrary. Even if he sees in Brienne what he himself should have been, even if he loves her for this - walking out of a longtime former relationship without looking back rather makes him an asshole than  a redeemed person.

And it is consistent with Jaime's characterization that he has trouble deciding. I hope there will be some moment of recognition and love between Brienne and him but him choosing Brienne only because Cersei has kicked his ass and he is needy, that will never happen. Their relationship would have a quality of its own and not be defined by Cersei yes or no.

The breakup between Cersei and Jaime is inevitable. But when  I read how Jaime threw Cersei's letter into the flames I did not cheer, I disliked Jaime for it and I was annoyed that Martin had built this up as symbolic act. It made Jaime one more guy with a hurt ego because his woman cheated on him, petty, yawn. 

But maybe this is only the viewpoint of a woman who in real life has seen so many weak men around her dump their respective families, not caring about what they leave behind, that I have trouble to see book Jaime's approach as true  personal development.

The show did so far much better here with him being torn about Cersei.  Cersei's and Jaime's love story has been a painful and tragic story between two hugely interesting individuals. And Brienne's and Jaime's story will be.

 

She has been using and manipulating him the whole time they have been screwing! And SHE IS HIS SISTER!!!

[Woman of War]

It doesn't matter in this context that she is his sister. I only feel minor outrage over an incest started by two children. Cersei has exploited her brother all their lifetime but she might have done this with a cousin or another boy around her as well, this is not a problem created by incest, it is a Cersei specific problem.

Cersei and Jaime have a relationship and three kids me from it. So I judge him like I would judge any guy who dumps his family after the relationship gets  rough. Of course it's not wrong per se to separate from the mother of your children and to be torn between two relationships but doing it out of hurt male ego, like book Jaime,  is pathetic and not redeeming.

Sister or not, their common children are reality. You cannot try to eradicate one wrong by doing another wrong, deal with what you did. 

Maybe Jaime will be morally redeemed in the end, maybe he will  end as being pathetic. I guess he will end as hero and continue to have trouble with decisions, staying  a little weak. 

The show gives him all options. He is basically a weak human being with potential to grow above himself. While Brienne is strong.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Book!Jaime wants to be a father to Myrcella and Tommen, though, and Cersei won't let him. She wants her children to herself, and she wants the power that goes with Tommen's claim. She's a fundamentally selfish person. That's part of the reason Jaime dumps her, while still thinking about how he will reveal his true relationship to Tommen.

[imaginepageant]

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

It made Jaime one more guy with a hurt ego because his woman cheated on him, petty, yawn. 

That was a small part of why his relationship with Cersei fell apart. It did so before Tyrion told him about Lancel and Kettleblack (and Moon Boy, for all he knew). When Jaime returned to King's Landing, Cersei treated him differently because of his hand and what it's loss meant—that he was no longer useful to her. She seemed disgusted by him and distanced herself from him until she needed something from him, which is when she suddenly switched back to loving and seductive Cersei. Jaime began to realize that she never truly loved him as he loved her, that he was just another pawn in her game. And then Tyrion hit him with her infidelity. It was the straw that broke the camel's back in the dissolution of the relationship, not the impetus of the whole thing. When he threw her letter in the fire, it wasn't just because she cheated on him; it was because he knew, at that point, that their entire relationship had been a lie.

[Darksky]

13 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

Cutting all the completely unnecessary and boring/annoying storylines from the books. No Quentyn, no Arianne, no Aeron, no Victarion, no Lady Stoneheart, no Harry the Heir and God bless them, no Jon Connington and no Penny. 

 

I'd also add no Darkstar, no Val (aka Ygritte 2.0), no Satin and no Sarella (Alleras? How imaginative...) to that list.

Mance overstayed his welcome and should have been killed for his desertion and breaking all of his Night's Watch vows. Melisandre saving him through glamour was s cop-out. It's good the show didn't stick to that.