The Starks and Queens?

[HexMachina]

On 19 April 2016 at 6:25 PM, Sullen said:

Take Ladies Oakheart, Whent, and Stokeworth as examples then.

Lady Hornwood was an interim regent too, by the way, as is Dustin, they're both in charge of their respective households because the previous ruler died without leaving an apparent heir and the succession is muddled.

And Lady Anya Waynwood is a good example too. Head of House Waynwood and one of the Lords/Lady Declarant. 

[The hairy bear]

If I'm not missing anyone, the list of ruling ladies at the beginning of the series are:

• Dorne (3): Delonne Allyrion, Larra Blackmont, Nymella Toland
• North (3): Barbrey Dustin, Lyessa Flint, Maege Mormont
• Stormlands (2): Shyra Errol, Mary Mertyns
• Reach (2): Alysanne Bulwer, Arwyn Oakhart
• Crownlands (2): Tanda Stokeworth, Ermesande Hayford
• Vale (1): Anya Waynwood
• Riverlands (1): Shella Went

The North is up there with Dorne, which I think is telling.

[Btw, probably the Dornish figure is the most surprising. I only count 3 women among 14 ruling lords. It seems weird, as one would expect a 50-50 distribution in equal primogeniture]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The wildlings value strength. If you are a woman who can stand up to man you get access to the boy's club. If not, then you are probably worse off than in Westeros - especially if you remember Ygritte's contemptuous remarks about weaker women.

In that sense I would assume that the women we met in the books are all members of 'the aristocrats' of the wildlings - those who women who are strong enough to rise to the top.

I agree with that. When I say that I see First Men culture as more favourable towards ruling women I was referring to the fact that in an Andal society there's only one way for a woman to inherit: having no brothers. In a First Men society, perhaps there's another option: being stronger than them.

[Lord Varys]

@The hairy bear

Well, the Dornish succession favors the eldest child.

The three ruling ladies in the North all seem to be exceptions from the rule. However strong Barbrey Dustin might be, she could only claim and keep Barrowton with the blessing of Winterfell. Most likely Ned granted the lordship to her because he felt guilty about her husband's death.

And we should always keep in mind that widows do have a claim to a castle and a lordship. It is not very strong, but George explicitly mentions them in his longer comment on the vague medieval succession laws.

The Mormonts are an exception, too. Their women are freaks because they were forced to become fighters to defend themselves against the Ironborn and other raiders. But we know how Maege could take Bear Island - Jeor Mormont took the black, and Jorah Mormont went into exile. As far as we know there are no other Mormonts besides Maege and her daughters, so this isn't surprising either.

We know pretty much nothing about Lyessa Flint but if she was the only surviving child of her father and if there are no male Flints closely related to her left then it is not surprising that she become the Lady of Widow's Watch.

I'd therefore not say the Northmen are really in favor of female inheritance. The fact that they never had a female Queen Regnant or a Ruling Lady of Winterfell attests to that. Women stepping into a power vacuum and serving as regents isn't different, because they are not really exerting power in their own right. Not to mention that this only temporary, and isn't uncommon in the South, either.

And the fact that the Starks once backed Princess Rhaenys/Laenor Velaryon and later joined the Black cause may have nothing to do with the gender of the people involved. In the first case there are hints that the Starks had severe issues with Jaehaerys I and ended up supporting the claimant to the Iron Throne who wasn't his favorite to spite the Old King (although they also might have preferred primogeniture through the female line).

During the Dance Jace's visit certainly made Lord Cregan feel important and needed, and the rigid view Cregan later demonstrates when he conducts his trial against the (alleged) murderers of Aegon II could also be a hint that he believed a king/lord was within his rights to choose his own heir (after all, Cregan had no sympathy for Aegon II but felt that an anointed king had to be avenged if he was poisoned by his own advisers). Rhaenyra was his chosen heir, so she was the rightful Queen.

We also see that it the Lannisters later come up with the idea of using Sansa as a puppet Lady of Winterfell after all of Ned's sons are believed to be dead. That is a pretty strong hint that the Andal culture has no problem at all supporting the claim of a woman if it is convenient.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think it would be amiss to ignore the Carving on the gate of the Mormonts Hall when making assumptions about their House History, and the far north in general; as that clue pertains to them. It very clearly celebrates the duality of Mormont and indeed all Bear island women. A mother suckling her infant, wearing a bear fur carrying a battleaxe. 

We are told the women of Bear Island are trained to fight due to raids by IronBorn. But Bear Island is far from the only outpost of Westeros to suffer heavy or frequent attacks from the Iron Born. Yet they are the only ones who chose to arm their women in response. And not only do they arm them, they celebrate the fact. Announce it proudly in a very prominent and clear way. 

Dacey is not treated as Brienne is either. Robb's other KG do not laugh, nor ridicule her they do not either make the mistake of allowing her prowess to insult their masculinity. When we take a look at the two KG members in the story who are female, the contrast to their treatment is quite interesting. Now of course where Brienne is clumsy and uncomfortable in Silks, Dacey is as at home in a gown as she is in mail. But again this is suggestive - that whilst Brienne grows up with ridicule, shame and chastisement for her desire to take arms, Dacey is welcomed  in the practice yard. And it seems that no one suggests she can not be both a Lady and a "knight" of course, the north does not even have knights, so straight away we lose all the chauvinistic chivalry associated, where a man's masculinity is wrapped up in his ability with the sword. And where women's role is that of weaker sex, to be protected and celebrated only as they relate to a man's relationship to her, lover, mother, wife, daughter. 

So whilst we can not straight up say that women are treated differently in the North, there are undoubted differences. Which seem to me to be left from the time when First men and Andals mixed less, the culture of the South has been slowly bleeding into the North for thousands of years. With some houses, and some individual members either embracing those changes or carrying on older traditions as is their want. 

 

[Lord Varys]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Asha's conversations with Alysane Mormont suggest she considers herself a freak. She is not happy being raised as a woman who has to fight.

Back when the Bear Islander women were first forced to take up arms the Ironborn were a major threat. How plausible it is that they are still doing that I don't know. However, I realize that it is weird that the women of the Northmen living at the Stony Shore and elsewhere close to the coast didn't do a similar thing. A possible explanation could be that the women on Bear Island couldn't get off the island and it was too small be just retreat further inland to be save from the raids whereas the Northmen at the coast of the mainland most likely retreated much farther inland, abandoning the coastal regions to the Ironborn rather than trying to fight for them again and again.

At least in those years in which the Ironborn controlled the entire Western coast of Westeros down to the Arbor.

This could actually help explain why the hell there are no great population centers and castles in the western reaches of the North.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I was thinking more about the other coastal islands, tbh. Rather than the coastal regions in general. take the Shield islands for example. Totally trad southern roles there - all women are helpless and need a men to defend them. 

Whereas in the North the island women take up arms. 

I'm not recalling getting that vibe from Alysane ?

[The Wondering Wolf]

27 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But again this is suggestive - that whilst Brienne grows up with ridicule, shame and chastisement for her desire to take arms, Dacey is welcomed  in the practice yard. And it seems that no one suggests she can not be both a Lady and a "knight" of course, the north does not even have knights, so straight away we lose all the chauvinistic chivalry associated, where a man's masculinity is wrapped up in his ability with the sword.

But I wouldn't say that all guys really agreed with Dacey joining Robb's guard.

Quote

One of [Robb's] companions was even a woman: Dacey Mormont, Lady Maege's eldest daughter and heir to Bear Island, a lanky six-footer who had been given a morningstar at an age when most girls were given dolls. Some of the other lords muttered about that, but Catelyn would not listen to their complaints. "This is not about the honor of your houses," she told them. "This is about keeping my son alive and whole." (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn X)

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not trying to prove some sort of absolute. 

Just pointing certain things out for consideration, two women as KG, and two very different experiences for those women. 

[direpupy]

34 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I was thinking more about the other coastal islands, tbh. Rather than the coastal regions in general. take the Shield islands for example. Totally trad southern roles there - all women are helpless and need a men to defend them. 

Whereas in the North the island women take up arms. 

I'm not recalling getting that vibe from Alysane ?

The shield islands where taken by the reach after the decline of the Ironborn had started so they where never under the same amount of treat as Bear Island, so this is not a fair comparison.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

45 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it would be amiss to ignore the Carving on the gate of the Mormonts Hall when making assumptions about their House History, and the far north in general; as that clue pertains to them. It very clearly celebrates the duality of Mormont and indeed all Bear island women. A mother suckling her infant, wearing a bear fur carrying a battleaxe. 

We are told the women of Bear Island are trained to fight due to raids by IronBorn. But Bear Island is far from the only outpost of Westeros to suffer heavy or frequent attacks from the Iron Born. Yet they are the only ones who chose to arm their women in response. And not only do they arm them, they celebrate the fact. Announce it proudly in a very prominent and clear way. 

Dacey is not treated as Brienne is either. Robb's other KG do not laugh, nor ridicule her they do not either make the mistake of allowing her prowess to insult their masculinity. When we take a look at the two KG members in the story who are female, the contrast to their treatment is quite interesting. Now of course where Brienne is clumsy and uncomfortable in Silks, Dacey is as at home in a gown as she is in mail. But again this is suggestive - that whilst Brienne grows up with ridicule, shame and chastisement for her desire to take arms, Dacey is welcomed  in the practice yard. And it seems that no one suggests she can not be both a Lady and a "knight" of course, the north does not even have knights, so straight away we lose all the chauvinistic chivalry associated, where a man's masculinity is wrapped up in his ability with the sword. And where women's role is that of weaker sex, to be protected and celebrated only as they relate to a man's relationship to her, lover, mother, wife, daughter. 

So whilst we can not straight up say that women are treated differently in the North, there are undoubted differences. Which seem to me to be left from the time when First men and Andals mixed less, the culture of the South has been slowly bleeding into the North for thousands of years. With some houses, and some individual members either embracing those changes or carrying on older traditions as is their want. 

 

The acceptance of women in the northern practice yards could also be tied to harshness of the northern climate/environment. In addition to attacks by the Ironborn, Wilding raids pose a serious threat, especially in the far north. Raiders are more likely to kill the men in order to take what they came for, leaving the women behind (or taking some of them with them, depending on the situation). 

And then there are the winters. We know when the winters get especially rough, the old men go "hunting" in order to save the resources for the younger generations, and depending on how harsh the winter is and how dire the situation becomes, I would imagine more men would continue to head out into the storms, leaving the women to see to it the family survives until spring. 

These situations practically demand strong women, which could explain their greater acceptance. Yes, Jeor makes a remark or two about his sister, but that can be at least somewhat attributed to the bitterness he feels towards the Jorah situation. And yes, some lords were upset Dacey was given a coveted position, but that could be attributed to her getting that spot over them or their sons, rather than simply because she is a woman. She certainly showed herself to be worthy of the appointment. 

 

As as far as the Lady Hornwood situation, I think that had a lot to do with the circumstances in the North as a whole. Ned is dead, his teenage son the new Lord of Winterfell, and then he rode south with the army, leaving his crippled younger brother as the Stark in Winterfell. The Hornwood lands were desirable, and several families had a claim to them, and the North is without the strong leader they have been accustomed to. Rather than risk the army crumbling over an ultimately insignificant situation, Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik counseled Bran to settle the Hornwood succession as quickly as possible. In less chaotic circumstances, I imagine Lady Hornwood would have lived out her days in a similar fashion as Lady Dustin, albeit with less bitterness.

[The hairy bear]

The lords that complained to Catelyn about Dacey could easily be Riverlords. After all, they would be the ones most likely to aproach to Catelyn about such matters. And in any case, the Weirwoods Eyes' points still stands: she had a much easier time than Brienne.

@Eden-Mackenzie

The Donella Hornwood situation can't really be compared with Lady Barbrey, or any other ruling lady. She was only the widow of the late lord, with no living progeny and no claim to the Hornwood lands on her own. She had never ruled, and she could not expect to do so, even in peaceful times.

@Lord Varys

I agree that the a ruling lady in the north is an exception to the rule. My only point is that it seems that in the North this exception is less "exceptional".

[Eden-Mackenzie]

@The hairy bear

I am not understanding why their situations are not comparable. Lady Barbery was born a Ryswell, she married into the Dustin family, just as Lady Donella was born a Manderly and married into the Hornwood family. Both of their husbands died fighting for the Starks, leaving their husbands without an obvious heir. They only real differences I can see in their situations are:

1. Lord Dustin died at the end of his war whereas Lord Hornwood died at the beginning;
2. Benjen/Ned vs Bran/Robb as the Stark in Winterfell; and
3. Ramsay. 

If Ramsay had not forcibly married her, Lady Donella could have ruled the Hornwood lands as the widow of the previous lord until the Starks ruled who would become the next lord, just as Lady Barbery is ruling the Barrowlands, could she not?

[The hairy bear]

@Eden-Mackenzie

You are right, my mistake. I was confusing the genealogies of houses Ryswell and Dustin.

 

 

[bemused]

There's another difference between Lady Hornwood and Lady Dustin. Lord Hornwood had a recognised bastard son, Larence Snow, being fostered by the Glovers. At the harvest feast, Bran finally says "Let the bastard rule" ...which I'm sure will be the eventual outcome.

Lady Hornwood didn't want to face the obvious solution, seeming to feel about Larence much like Cat felt about Jon. Politically though, it would be better for Northern stability to have Larence succeed, than to have a Tallhart cousin take the Hornwood name , or have the lands absorbed by another house. It will only take whoever is KitN to declare Larence legitimate.

We may (and I stress may) see a different solution to the Dustin situation. So far as we know Willam had no bastard offspring and we don't know if there are cousins (or if so, how remote they might be). ... But there is an, as yet, very slight hint that Barbrey might have a bastard son. On her trip to the WF crypts she takes her serjeant to open the door and bear the light. (If she could have found the crypts, she would have gone without Theon.)

This minor character is very unnecessarily named.. and he's named "Beron". ... Coincidentally, the tomb of Beron Stark is one of the ones noted on their excursion. Some won't find this at all noteworthy, some might suspect he's Brandon's son - but I think if he's a Stark bastard , then he's Benjen's.(For reasons too detailed to go into here) .. If either is true (and no cousins appear), the best eventual solution might be to let Beron take the Dustin name (or a new name)... and either way, I think the question will be cleared up in TWoW.

As to the OP, while I'm not sure that we can say for certain that the North is now more open to female rulership or the importance of the female bloodline, it may be about to become more accepting, because of Jon's heritage and the supposed content of Robb's "will".

Attitudes may also shift somewhat due to the integration of wildlings. The Mormonts might not seem like such outliers.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Another point to note regarding Brienne and Dacey. Is that they are in addition to both being women who are warriors and who both win a place on their respective Kings, guards. They are also both Heir to their house. 

Just thought it worth noting as it draws another parallel. And yes no matter that a few lords chuntered over Dacey, the two women had hugely different experiences as KG's. 

 

[Lord Varys]

I actually don't see any hint that Dacey was treated much better than Brienne. Robb made her one of his companions and thus it would have been much more difficult to treat her like shit since she apparently enjoyed the favor of the Young Wolf.

Brienne is mostly mocked and treated like shit while she is just one she-warrior in huge army which moves very slowly and feasts the entire day. They have the time and leisure to amuse themselves by mocking the freak girl. The Northmen might have done the same to Dacey if they had had the time and the opportunity.

In addition, Brienne has the additional handicap of both being very ugly and being very shy - both making her an easy target for mockery.

Just keep in mind that Rickard Stark was not in favor of such stupid ideas as to allow his daughter to train at arms. Lyanna had to do that in secret with Benjen's help. If the North had been okay - or more okay that the Southrons - with that kind of behavior then it is strange that Rickard would have been so adamant against it.

@The hairy bear

Well, I'd just say that chance put more female ladies in charge in the North than elsewhere. Without any good evidence that there are different rules in the North than elsewhere the mere fact that there are three ruling ladies up there and (apparently) fewer in the other regions doesn't prove anything. And we have also to keep in mind that there is no reason to assume we know all the lordly houses in the West or the Reach by name - after all, POVs still have to actually explore those regions in detail. There could be more ruling ladies in those regions we simply don't know anything about yet.

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Asha and Alysane talk about children and life at one point, and she does not proudly talk about her identity as a warrior-woman. It is something that was forced upon the Bear Islanders, not something they enjoy. It clearly makes them outsiders in the North and in the Seven Kingdoms as a whole.

Even Visenya Targaryen wasn't a very happy person. Granted, it could partially have been because she wasn't a people person but one really wonders how much shit she got for hanging out with the men in the practice yard, and how that shaped her overall character. Aegon's deep love for Rhaenys could be a hint that he had a thing for proper women who knew their place and did try to behave like a man (which Visenya apparently did). If we assume Visenya originally had a deep affection for Aegon then their estrangement over the years might actually be a very tragic story.

You have to keep in mind that a woman behaving like a man (e.g. wearing a man's clothing) would have been considered to be both unnatural and dangerous in such a society. There is a reason why men dressing/behaving like women are usually ridiculed (and aside from men with certain fetishistic or aesthetic taste nobody does that). Women fought for the right to wear trousers but as far as I know no men actually demanded the right to wear gowns or skirts in public.

The reason for that is that women are considered to be the weaker sex and essentially inferior to men. Being female just sucks in such a society (and if you really talk to a woman who reflects her own role in life you'll realize that it still sucks today).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually don't see any hint that Dacey was treated much better than Brienne. Robb made her one of his companions and thus it would have been much more difficult to treat her like shit since she apparently enjoyed the favor of the Young Wolf.

Brienne is mostly mocked and treated like shit while she is just one she-warrior in huge army which moves very slowly and feasts the entire day. They have the time and leisure to amuse themselves by mocking the freak girl. The Northmen might have done the same to Dacey if they had had the time and the opportunity.

In addition, Brienne has the additional handicap of both being very ugly and being very shy - both making her an easy target for mockery.

Just keep in mind that Rickard Stark was not in favor of such stupid ideas as to allow his daughter to train at arms. Lyanna had to do that in secret with Benjen's help. If the North had been okay - or more okay that the Southrons - with that kind of behavior then it is strange that Rickard would have been so adamant against it.

@The hairy bear

Well, I'd just say that chance put more female ladies in charge in the North than elsewhere. Without any good evidence that there are different rules in the North than elsewhere the mere fact that there are three ruling ladies up there and (apparently) fewer in the other regions doesn't prove anything. And we have also to keep in mind that there is no reason to assume we know all the lordly houses in the West or the Reach by name - after all, POVs still have to actually explore those regions in detail. There could be more ruling ladies in those regions we simply don't know anything about yet.

@The Weirwoods Eyes

Asha and Alysane talk about children and life at one point, and she does not proudly talk about her identity as a warrior-woman. It is something that was forced upon the Bear Islanders, not something they enjoy. It clearly makes them outsiders in the North and in the Seven Kingdoms as a whole.

Even Visenya Targaryen wasn't a very happy person. Granted, it could partially have been because she wasn't a people person but one really wonders how much shit she got for hanging out with the men in the practice yard, and how that shaped her overall character. Aegon's deep love for Rhaenys could be a hint that he had a thing for proper women who knew their place and did try to behave like a man (which Visenya apparently did). If we assume Visenya originally had a deep affection for Aegon then their estrangement over the years might actually be a very tragic story.

You have to keep in mind that a woman behaving like a man (e.g. wearing a man's clothing) would have been considered to be both unnatural and dangerous in such a society. There is a reason why men dressing/behaving like women are usually ridiculed (and aside from men with certain fetishistic or aesthetic taste nobody does that). Women fought for the right to wear trousers but as far as I know no men actually demanded the right to wear gowns or skirts in public.

The reason for that is that women are considered to be the weaker sex and essentially inferior to men. Being female just sucks in such a society (and if you really talk to a woman who reflects her own role in life you'll realize that it still sucks today).

you do know I'm a woman, right.... 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

you do know I'm a woman, right.... 

I know now. Sorry, for not double checking. I can try to save my face by saying that I'm, not in fact, a eunuch... But I guess you understand my points then?

Thinking about Brienne a little bit more:

She was only mocked and had to deal with the whole wager thing prior to her institution in the Rainbow Guard, right? Being there wouldn't have made her really accepted, either, but it shortly would reduced the number of comments she got. Targeting the king's protector could easily be seen as an insult to Renly directly.

We see and meet Dacey only after she has reached a similar position Brienne gained at Bitterbridge.

How deep the misogyny goes at court is also apparent late in AGoT when people at the completely Lannister dominated court seem to be displeased that Cersei as the Queen Regent is also joining Joffrey's Small Council (and thus a woman actually holds an office in the government of the Realm). Later on in AFfC Cersei is completely aware of the fact that Taena Merryweather can never serve as Hand because of her gender (especially interesting in light of the fact that there were women serving in important positions at court in the early days of the Targaryen reign).

[oopeed]

On 19/4/2016 at 10:52 AM, Sullen said:

The South also accepted Cersei as Queen Regent, similarly to Lysa as Lady of the Vale.

The king was Joffrey, Cersei was merely a seatwarmer but mostly people accepted Lannisters and their power as rulers. After all we're speaking of one of the oldest and more powerful families in Westeros. We also get how people were quick to understand that Tyrion or Tywin held the real power in KL, no one ever saw Cersei as the real queen.

I think Starks and northmen in general more than being less misogynistic, they have more respect for inheritance traditions and for power itself. We see people respecting Dacey and her mother because they showed up courage and martial prowess, not because they were the ruler and heir of Bear Island.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I know now. Sorry, for not double checking. I can try to save my face by saying that I'm, not in fact, not a eunuch... But I guess you understand my points then?

Thinking about Brienne a little bit more:

She was only mocked and had to deal with the whole wager thing prior to her institution in the Rainbow Guard, right? Being there wouldn't have made her really accepted, either, but it shortly would reduced the number of comments she got. Targeting the king's protector could easily be seen as an insult to Renly directly.

We see and meet Dacey only after she has reached a similar position Brienne gained at Bitterbridge.

How deep the misogyny goes at court is also apparent late in AGoT when people at the completely Lannister dominated court seem to be displeased that Cersei as the Queen Regent is also joining Joffrey's Small Council (and thus a woman actually holds an office in the government of the Realm). Later on in AFfC Cersei is completely aware of the fact that Taena Merryweather can never serve as Hand because of her gender (especially interesting in light of the fact that there were women serving in important positions at court in the early days of the Targaryen reign).

 I'll let you off. 

 

Hmm, Interesting thoughts, i always kind of thought Dacey and Maege were well respected and their place not questioned, butthat the naming of her to the KG got a few people chuntering, I think with that in mind it is pertinent to note, that the KG is not a thing the last King in the North will have had, they are taking on a Targaryen practice, and one which was instituted as an all male organisation. it is kind of a moment of melting cultural practices. And such times are always bound to come across some controversy. I've just wrote a big post discussing this sort of thing in the marriages thread as well. 

I'm wondering now if it wasn't so much Dacey as a woman fighter that was being objected to as a woman on the KG. Renly appoints one too, but Renly is also a person who is living outside of societies expectations for him, and so we assume is more flexible in his views. But Brienne also more than proves herself capable, and her appointment can't really be disputed once she kicks their arses.  But they view her as a female fighter as a freak, where I never got the impression Maege Dacey or her sisters were/are viewed that way by the Northmen. The southerners yes, very much so.  I don't think there is any argument at all about the misogyny which runs deep throughout Andal culture.