A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers

[DarkSister1001]

3 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yeah I can see that for sure. What think will happen is this: Darkstar claims the sword, passes himself of as a fake SOTM. He will offer his services to Dany as a KG, and thus will become a full parody of Arthur Dayne. That's maybe a terrific time for Arya to kill him, sure, why not. I'm not really sure what George might be thinking about doing with Edric, but Arya is one of the only people he's connected with via those scenes you mentioned. 

LOVE it!  Do you think Dany will travel through Bravos?  Or do you think Arya will travel to Meeren (of where ever she ends up)? 

[LmL]

On May 27, 2016 at 2:49 PM, DarkSister1001 said:

LOVE it!  Do you think Dany will travel through Bravos?  Or do you think Arya will travel to Meeren (of where ever she ends up)? 

I think Dany will land at Oldtown, based on certain clues. Speculation, but that's my guess. I expect any Dawn-related action would take place in Westeros. 

BTW, I'm not necessarily  sold at all on the idea of Dawn being wielded by anyone. I think it's very possible that Dawn is a museum piece from the first LN, but will not be the sword we need this time. But IF Dawn is to enter the Frey, my idea is Darkstar stealing it and all the rest.

EDIT: sorry for the crappy autocorrect flubs. 

[Arry'sFleas]

On 27/05/2016 at 6:11 AM, Sly Wren said:

I think one of the key ways they will hopefully finally end the Winterizing of Westeros and the Others and the Long Night once for all will be restoring normal life cycles

i am not sure about the once and for all; wouldn't that mean a fairy tale ending?

If the story is to have a 'morale', then we should expect some kind of 'behave in the future' or else, 'winter may return'. A message to the 21st century humans.

I wonder how long ago did the Stark words 'winter is coming' did appear (could not find it in the world book). Could it have been following some untowardly actions from the Kings of the North? getting rid of the Night King?

 

 

[House Cambodia]

On 20/04/2016 at 2:21 AM, hiemal said:

I think there is a progression, a metaphorical weaning away from the cycles of the earth in favor of the rhythms of civilization; from the song of the earth itself, to runes which are carved into the rocks themselves (and possibly correlated with the Summer Islanders carving their history into the giant trees of their Islands?), to the academic and "portable" letters of the maesters?

Words as living, oral history; as potent, magical runes; and as the script of science.

Hmmmm, I wonder when the printing press is coming to Westeros?

Just found this thread - fantastic theory, I love it! I can't add anything to the specific musings about direwolves and horns, but I'd like to respond to the quotation above. I'm developing a theory that is the opposite to hiemal's.

This is what I posted in my 'Endgame' thread earlier:

 

Let me preface by considering where the author's real sympathies lie. He hides too well behind his various characters, but his world reveals much. His sympathies lie with the harmony and balance of the natural world. He is antagonised by the hubris, greed, pride and aggrandizement of humans. Let's see how this plays out in the book.

In the beginning, Westeros was populated by the Children and giants, who lived in harmony with nature - the trees and animals. It wasn't a vegetarian Eden - there was conflict between Children and giants, but a balance was maintained that put no stress on the environment for millennia. Presumably they used greenseer abilities, and ice magic (mystified who these greenseers were if Men hadn't yet arrived - thoughts?). 

Meanwhile, contemporaneously in the far east of Essos, Men had arisen and were using fire magic to build a 'civilization' based on exploitation, militarisation, slavery and environmental degradation. Did an Essosi equivalent of The Children bring something out of the Shadowlands in an unsuccessful attempt to stop them? Did Men build a string of 5 forts to keep them at bay?

The point is, there was balance in Westeros, sustained the the ice magic of the Children. One poster is speculating that the First Men who arrived in Westeros had Fire magicians among them - perhaps 'First Men' referred to their elitist standing in Essosi society and they combatted the Ice magic of the Children to devastating effect. Even if Ice and Fire magic were equal in some way, the Children had no experience in using Ice magic for such violent purposes. In short, Fire (boo! hiss!) devastated Ice. Behind the vanguard, thousands of ordinary Men came pouring through the Arm to populate Westeros.

So, I'm stressing the dichotomy between Essos-Fire-Men-badthing and Westeros-Ice-Children-goodthing. Despite the antithesis, the Children and First Men eventually came to The Pact, part of which was an agreement that neither side would use their magic on each other. Then the Andals came and the Children and First Men in desperation agreed for one time to combine their Fire and Ice magic to salvage the north of Westeros from their advances. Thus, the Children sacrificed a Man to bring forth the Others, The Night, but also the Night's Watch and eventually, the Wall. The Starks have been a hereditary symbol of the Pact between First Men and Children, hence their blood has been the guarantor of keeping what is north and what is south of the Wall separated. The NW's rangings disturbed the agreement but not critically, whereas Stannis and Melisandre rocking up with R'hllor banners flying shattered it - the power of the god from Asshai is a flagrant provocation to bring down the full wrath of The Great Other.

Dany will bring untold numbers of R'hllor followers with her along with Dothraki who worship Azor Ahai as personified by Daenerys. Today's GRRM reveal suggests that Euron could even see himself as R'hllor but we need not go there.

[LordImp]

Why havent i read this thread earlier ? Love this ! Good job , Sly Wren . 

[hiemal]

14 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

...

So, I'm stressing the dichotomy between Essos-Fire-Men-badthing and Westeros-Ice-Children-goodthing. Despite the antithesis, the Children and First Men eventually came to The Pact, part of which was an agreement that neither side would use their magic on each other. Then the Andals came and the Children and First Men in desperation agreed for one time to combine their Fire and Ice magic to salvage the north of Westeros from their advances. Thus, the Children sacrificed a Man to bring forth the Others, The Night, but also the Night's Watch and eventually, the Wall. The Starks have been a hereditary symbol of the Pact between First Men and Children, hence their blood has been the guarantor of keeping what is north and what is south of the Wall separated. The NW's rangings disturbed the agreement but not critically, whereas Stannis and Melisandre rocking up with R'hllor banners flying shattered it - the power of the god from Asshai is a flagrant provocation to bring down the full wrath of The Great Other.

Dany will bring untold numbers of R'hllor followers with her along with Dothraki who worship Azor Ahai as personified by Daenerys. Today's GRRM reveal suggests that Euron could even see himself as R'hllor but we need not go there.

I like your thinking. A lot of it is like my own, so it's pretty easy to do.

Ultimately, however, I think that the dichotomy will be more balanced than our familiarity for the Starks might make apparent. I think that the both the Starks and the Targaryans are heirs to pacts made with powers of ice and fire. I don't know what the Targaryan's (or their forebears or perhaps even once-GeoDawnians from the Shadow) swore or what they sacrificed, but the Targ mutant stillbirths offer a few gruesome ideas.

I think that the Starks made pacts with the Others as well as the CotF. They didn't style themselves the Kings of Winter for nothing, I suspect- and the pacts that bind them to Winterfell and to her crypts after death do not match at all with anything the Children would encourage, it seems to me. Interring bodies (or bones) in stone crypts is to deny the remains their return to the cycle of life and death that is the Old Gods. Not to mention the iron swords meant to prevent wandering.

As for Euron and The Forsaken, unfortunately I haven't been able to read anything but notes, but I would peg the Crow's Eye as fancying himself the Storm God from what I've seen so far.

[Scorpion92]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:18 PM, LmL said:

I think Dany will land at Oldtown, based on certain clues. Speculation, but that's my guess. I expect any Dawn-related action would take place in Westeros. 

BTW, I'm not necessarily  sold at all on the idea of Dawn being wielded by anyone. I think it's very possible that Dawn is a museum piece from the first LN, but will not be the sword we need this time. But IF Dawn is to enter the Frey, my idea is Darkstar stealing it and all the rest.

EDIT: sorry for the crappy autocorrect flubs. 

Hey LmL, I agree with most of your points.

But in my opinion, Darkstar will definitely steal Dawn and offer his services not to Dany, but Aegon. It will parallel nicely the idea of Arthur Dayne-Rhaegar Targaryen combination of Aegon-Darkstar.

Plus, I am a big believer that we shall see Edric Dayne and Anguy starting a new branch of Brotherhood without Banners in Kingswood area, the very place where Arthur Dayne defeated Kingswood Brotherhood after he won the support of small folk. Add to the fact that Golden Company will defeat a massive Tyrell army led by Mace (check out BryndenBBlackfish's amazing essay of Blood of the Conqueror: Agincourt battle parallel), and I see a lot of scattered and confused Reach soldiers going "broken man" route and either join this Edric-led Brotherhood or get exterminated for their crimes towards common folk like "wolves" and "lions" did in Riverlands.

And later on, Aegon will send Darkstar to deal with this new Kingswood Brotherhood, but since he is Sword of the Evening and anti-Arthur Dayne, I see Darkstar dealing ruthlessly with Kingswood population and killing Lord Dayne with his own ancestral sword and commit more war atrocities in the name of Aegon. It will be a first big hit on Aegon's PR campaign in Stormlands, which will allow Edric Storm to come back home and act like a savior and gain big support for Dany's side, even possibly coming back as Edric Baratheon of Storm's End courtesy of royal decree by Dany and rallying Stormlands population to his/Dany's side (she will find him in Lys and ally with him on her way to Westeros, I mean, if she will accept Tyrion into her court, she might as well accept Robert's bastard as well).

I see Dany coming back to Dragonstone, killing Stannis there (who got support of Manderly ships and northern soldiers after defeating Boltons and installing Rickon as his Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North) as part of "slayer of lies" prophecy, and then launching her invasion further. She will definitely sack and destroy Oldtown. You like all these black moon rock meteors, and we know Hightower's base is made of it, so I see Dany setting it on dragonfire which will light up the whole building like a Christmas candle that might be seen for thousands of miles.

At least, that is how I see it.

[LmL]

Great stuff @Scorpion92, and like I said, I'll remember you said it if any of that happens.

I could just as easily see Darkstar as a fake Arthur offering his services to fAegon as Dany - in fact I think that's what I originally proposed in the History of Westeros House Dayne podcast I sat in on. Either way serves a similar purpose, but I suppose fake Arthur should go with fake Aegon, right? 

And yes, let's light the Hightower candle and see what happens. The Hightower sigil does like a bit like the eye of Sauron anyway. 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

I like your thinking. A lot of it is like my own, so it's pretty easy to do.

Ultimately, however, I think that the dichotomy will be more balanced than our familiarity for the Starks might make apparent. I think that the both the Starks and the Targaryans are heirs to pacts made with powers of ice and fire. I don't know what the Targaryan's (or their forebears or perhaps even once-GeoDawnians from the Shadow) swore or what they sacrificed, but the Targ mutant stillbirths offer a few gruesome ideas.

I think that the Starks made pacts with the Others as well as the CotF. They didn't style themselves the Kings of Winter for nothing, I suspect- and the pacts that bind them to Winterfell and to her crypts after death do not match at all with anything the Children would encourage, it seems to me. Interring bodies (or bones) in stone crypts is to deny the remains their return to the cycle of life and death that is the Old Gods. Not to mention the iron swords meant to prevent wandering.

As for Euron and The Forsaken, unfortunately I haven't been able to read anything but notes, but I would peg the Crow's Eye as fancying himself the Storm God from what I've seen so far.

Here's the thing which I have picked up on about the Starks which I don't think many other shave. The Starks are affiliated with fire, and fight the cold. They are the kings OVER winter. Winter is their subjugated, defeated foe. The King of Winter has a crown of bronze and iron, metals "dark and strong to fight against the cold." AGAINST the cold. The King of Winter lives in an oasis of earth amidst the frozen north. At his side sits a kind of hellhound, and all the wolves in the main story have eyes described as fiery. @sweetsunray can tell you all about Ned's Hades correlations, and that's whom the hellhounds serve in Greek myth. Then we have the gargoyles atop the First Keep - the legend of the first gargoyle invokes cutting the head off of a dragon and mounting it on the walls of the new church to ward off evil spirits. Gargoyles are also said to come to life - to wake from stone - at night, when they fly around. 

Finally, consider the first two scenes we get with Ned - his black dragon sword features prominently. I mean, like REALLY prominently. George is introducing us to more than just Ned here; here's introducing us to an archetype, that of the King of Winter. He has dark metals to fight the cold - the nearly black sword he calls Ice has a "dark glow." I think it's pretty dan obvious that the Starks have ties to the Others, but whatever those are (and I expect it will be complicated), they are certainly the people most responsible for defending the Others. They support and man the Wall, they probably gave us the Last Hero, and now we have Bran and Jon set to fight them again. In other words, it makes sense of them to be associated with fire, dragons, and hellish things if they are the ones who defend against the ice demons. Gargoyles are intended to ward against evil spirits, as are the swords across the laps of the Kings of Winter. There's a lot of demon warding going on at Winterfell, and what demons would they warding against if not the Others, the ice demons from the north? 

 

"Winter is coming" is not a threat to use winter as a weapon, as some suggest. It's the entire moral of the story - it means "stop bickering amongst yourself and stand together united for all humanity against that would destroy us." We've all seen the high lords playing their game of thrones and realizing they should be looking north, and that's what "Winter is coming" and "the North remembers" means. It means they remember how bad winter was last time, and they are here to remind y'all southerners what the deal is and lead the resistance. 

With fire and dark metals and hellhounds and shit. Maybe dragons. 

I talk about all of this in more detail in my newest podcast / essay (I really need a new word - maybe essaycast? That sounds too boring..) entitled "Tyrion Targaryen". Tyrion is called a gargoyle a bunch of times and so I opened up the can of gargoyle symbolism and found myself talking a lot about Winterfell and the King of Winter. I also found a cool parallel between Tyrion and a monkey demon king out of Chinese mythology which is pretty freaking awesome. I haven't made a thread here for it yet (I'm about to do so), but here is the link for now, in case anyone is interested. As you can tell by the title, it is in large part me providing support for A+J=T through the use of mythical astronomy and symbolic & mythological analysis. 

[LmL]

Hey @Sly Wren, I jumpe dingo this convo because someone tagged me (I think it was you), but I've only just now gone back and read the OP.  Great job, once again!  A lot of people have speculated in one form or another about the Stark dead rising in connection with Jon - it's such a prominent feature of his dreams. But I really love how you've tied this to Ghost and his silent howl. Of course, that's a parallel to the weirwoods, who scream silently and share Ghost's coloring. Weirwoods also play that role of bridge between living and dead, of course, so that all fits pretty well. 

I really like this part:

Quote

 

2. In the “oath”—no one who speaks the words is actually a sword, or fire, or light, or a shield. These are attributes, things the speaker embodies and represents. Not literal description.

3. So how does this apply to Jon and Ghost? Direwolves call for each other, living and dead. They sing. And the Starks hear their call—the dead kings have direwolves at their feet. And the current Starks have/had living direwolves.

 

True enough, all of those things do exist - shields and torches and swords and swords which are torches, etc - but they are also metaphors for the men themselves, as you aptly point out. The horn should be no different... never thought about it like that, but you're right. And obviously if anyone is going to wake sleepers it will be Jon, or perhaps Jon and Bran.

There's cool foreshadowing about the dead rising all the way back in a well-known passage from Book One, as Ned and Robert first descend to the crypts, appropriately enough:

Quote

 

Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?”

“Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. (Ned's people coming out = the cold great coming out of the crypts) “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. (Winterfell's dead are buried in the lichyard, which is covered in snow. Ne'ds people are indeed under the snow, waiting to come out like a cold breath from the crypts. These kings are a rare sight, they only come in the direst of circumstances, lol)

“Late summer snows are common enough,” Ned said. “I hope they did not trouble you. They are usually mild.”

“The Others take your mild snows,” Robert swore. “What will this place be like in winter? I shudder to think.”

“The winters are hard,” Ned admitted. “But the Starks will endure. We always have.” ("always" as in spirits waiting 8,000 years and still counting to rise from the grave)

“You need to come south,” Robert told him. ("...to fight the Others, cause that's where they are.")

 

 

Seems like we are seeing Stark dead rising to fight the Others - either that, of Ned is being depicted as the Night's King or whatever raising the dead and coming south. But i think Ned and the King of Winter are all about fighting the cold, as I said in my previous post. Either way, Ned's people are hiding under the snow. I still think passage is also an RLJ clue - Martin does double and triple duty at times, so I don't see a problem with it. 

Next thing that caught my eye: the piles of sleeping man rock that need to wake. They fit with the gargoyles on Winterfell, because gargoyles wake from stone at night when evil spirits come prowling.

Quote

8. Summer and Shaggydog howl to wake the sleepers when they hear Theon and his crew invading. (Shout out to @TheButcherCrow and @Morrigan's Raven for finding this quote).  

And he heard it again, clink and scrape. It brought him to his feet. His ears pricked and his tail rose. He howled, a long deep shivery cry, a howl to wake the sleepers, but the piles of man-rock were dark and dead. A still wet night, a night to drive men into their holes. The rain had stopped, but the men still hid from the damp, huddled by the fires in their caves of piled stone.  Clash, Bran IV.

The obvious reading here is that the rocks (buildings) are sleeping because nobody inside them is stirring, but I think there's a double meaning. This event is occurring as the Ironborn invade Winterfell, flowing over the walls like a dark tide. You know what I think about dark tides of iron - that's the moon flood of bloody stones, bleeding stars, etc. That's when we have the howl which tries to wake dark and dead piles of man rock. Dragons waking from stone, gargoyles waking from stone - this is mythical astronomy stuff here.  The horn is an important part of the moon disaster, central in fact. It was Nissa Nissa'a cry of anguish and ecstasy which actually broke the moon according to legend, after all. It was a sound which did it in that version - but a sound which can be like a sword too. We have heard a horn that matches that description exactly:

Quote

Sharp as a swordthrust, the sound of a horn split the air. Bright and baneful was its voice, a shivering hot (ice and fire?) scream that made a man’s bones seem to thrum within him.
. . .
It was a terrible sound, a wail of pain (paging Nissa Nissa) and fury that seemed to burn the ears.

The inscription on the horn is of course the same recipe for Lightbringer: blood for fire, fire for blood. Lightbringer was covered in Nissa Nissa's blood to be set on fire. Basically, what I am saying here is that Lightbringer is symbolized by many things, or you might say it has many aspects. The dragons, the watch, certain people, probably a sword or two - and the horn is yet another facet. All of the things in the NW are Lightbringer ideas - sword in the darkness, fire that burns against the cold, etc. The "horn" symbol is a great one because it represents both a sound and a stabbing horn of an animal, like a dragon or a black, devilish boar (the one which killed Robert). The comet is a stabbing horn which stabbed the moon, and Nissa Nissa's cry which cracked the moon gives us the sound aspect.

Your other example of a sound which wakes sleepers was the wail of anguish for dead Garth. Garth the Green is of course George's version of the horned lord, a figure who is sacrificed to turn the seasons. This is exactly the role the sun and moon play when they combine in the sky - when the moon wanders too close to the sun and cracks. Just as Robert, who was opened up by the devilish black boar to let loose a thousand snakes (according the Kings Landing crazy prophet, lol), represents the sacrificed sun-moon conjunction, so too does Garth, and thus his Garth avatar, Garth Greyfeather, is mourned by a howl that wakes sleepers in the "shadow tower."

The shadow tower is a symbol of the destroyed moon which no longer sits in the sky, from whence the woken sleepers came. That moon is now nothing more than shadowy black meteorites and a black hole in the sky - a shadow tower. Those black meteors were the sleepers that woke from stone, just as the direwolves try to wake the sleepers from the dark, dead stone - you see where I am going with this.

The Winterfell dead aren't the only sleepers that will wake. There are still yet more dragons to be woken from stone, I believe, and Jon may play a part in doing that. These would be icy dragons this time, instead of the fiery ones we got in the Dawn Age.

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The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. (because this cliff represents a celestial body, the moon) The moon ran with him, (Ghost and the moon are parallels, white things slipping through the wood... just like the Others) slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky. (the moon is moving across the sky! watch out!) “Snow,” the moon murmured. (that's a threat, folks) The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees. Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. (wolf calls which are like sleeper waking horns... watch out for falling moons)

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. (Now it's really taunting us) The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. (icy cliff, white wolf, white moon - parallel symbols)

“Snow,” the moon insisted. (I insist, snow is coming from the moon, y'all... I insist, lol) The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, (sun is hidden during gthe long night, and the long night is coming again when the moon rains down snow and ice like a shattering Wall) his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone (shoutout to the black stones which came when the stars fell from the sky, the last Long Night), a darkness towering high above the wide world (shadow tower motif again), but when the moon came out (of the sky) it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. (think about falling shards of frozen ice, coming from the menacing moon)

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. (lol, didn't I just say "shards of ice falling from the sky?" And this as the moon promises snow?) The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!” His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew. It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face. (black ravens coming from the moon and promising snow - perhaps we'll get more black meteors after all? The do end up causing snow, any way you slice it. This is a really great visual, a moon which promises snow and then transforms into a raven - a death messenger - and lands on his chest, screaming SNOW one more time for emphasis. Of course, meteor impacts are the kind of thing which... oh I don't know, might serve as a catalyst for a much-anticipated event: bringing down the Wall. The scene continues:) “I hear you.” The room was dim, his pallet hard. Grey light leaked through the shutters, promising another bleak cold day. (seems like the darkened sun of the Long Night, grey throughout clouds and ash) “Is this how you woke Mormont? Get your feathers out of my face.” Jon wriggled an arm out from under his blankets to shoo the raven off. It was a big bird, old and bold and scruffy, utterly without fear. “Snow,” it cried, flapping to his bedpost. “Snow, snow.” Jon filled his fist with a pillow and let fly, but the bird took to the air. (the feather pillow and the feathered bird are somewhat analogous here - the pillow is thrown, the raven takes flight, the pillow is meant to kill the raven, but instead...) The pillow struck the wall and burst, scattering stuffing everywhere just as Dolorous Edd Tollett poked his head through the door. “Beg pardon,” he said, ignoring the flurry of feathers, (the feathered pillow, standing in for the feathered raven as a moon meteor symbol, strikes the WALL and burtss, which fills the air with a "flurry," as in snow flurry. That's just what the moon-turned raven promised, snow.)  “shall I fetch m’lord some breakfast?”

“Corn,” cried the raven. “Corn, corn.”

“Roast raven,” Jon suggested.

 

 

Roast raven? Good lord, he wants burning meteors after all. They could well be burning shards of ice, just as the Others are burning shards of ice with burning star eyes. If the dragons pouring forth from the moon represent a fiery version of the moon meteor shower, the Others, an invasion of burning blue stars, show us an icy version of the same thing. In this scene, Jon is the one who creates the flurry and explodes things against the Wall, and it is to Jon that the moon promised snow and roast ravens. So... Jon may have something to do with waking the celestial sleepers as well. As I always say, the celestial events seem to mirror the planetary ones. 

One last clue about Jon waking sleepers and bringing down the wall:

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If I take the Dreadfort unawares—” “You won’t,” Jon blurted. It was as if he whacked a wasps’ nest with a stick. One of the queen’s men laughed, one spat, one muttered a curse, and the rest all tried to talk at once. “The boy has milkwater in his veins,” (as in, Jon will let loose the river of icy milk water, perhaps through his sacrifice- the opening of his veins) said Ser Godry the Giantslayer. And Lord Sweet huffed, “The craven sees an outlaw behind every blade of grass.” (blades of ghost grass, perhaps, which resemble Dawn?) 

Stannis raised a hand for silence. “Explain your meaning.”

Where to begin? Jon moved to the map. Candles had been placed at its corners to keep the hide from rolling up. A finger of warm wax was puddling out across the Bay of Seals, slow as a glacier. (dun dun dun, Jon's causing a flood)

. . .

Stannis gave him a sour look. “Not for me, ser. I want no widows wailing (the sword which represent's the moon's death cry) in my wake.

. . .

“Do I need to make you swear an oath before a tree?”

“No.” Was that a jape? With Stannis, it was hard to tell.

“Done, then. Now, where are these men?”

“You’ll find them here.” Jon spread his burned hand across the map (across Westeros, more like), west of the kingsroad and south of the Gift.

 

This is followed up with  more Jon and Stannis over the map action later in the same book:

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“Cannot or will not?” The cords in the king’s neck stood out sharp as swords. “I offered you a name.”

“I have a name, Your Grace.”

“Snow. Was ever a name more ill-omened?” Stannis touched his sword hilt. “Just who do you imagine that you are?”

“The watcher on the walls. The sword in the darkness.”

“Don’t prate your words at me.” Stannis drew the blade he called Lightbringer. “Here is your sword in the darkness.” Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king’s face in harsh, bright hues. “Even a green boy should be able to see that. Are you blind?”

. . .

The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water.
. . .
The map lay between them like a battleground, drenched by the colors of the glowing sword.

. . .

"Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

 

 

And finally, my favorite quote which goes along with these two:

Quote

 

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors. “Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers.

 

 

[House Cambodia]

I've just had a ghastly thought - why are the Stark ancestors entombed in crypts like no one else is (in the North, I mean)? Is it because at death they rise again as undead, as Others? Are there generations of Others flailing about in their tombs under Winterfell??? And where ARE Ned's bones??

[hiemal]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

 

"Winter is coming" is not a threat to use winter as a weapon, as some suggest. It's the entire moral of the story - it means "stop bickering amongst yourself and stand together united for all humanity against that would destroy us." We've all seen the high lords playing their game of thrones and realizing they should be looking north, and that's what "Winter is coming" and "the North remembers" means. It means they remember how bad winter was last time, and they are here to remind y'all southerners what the deal is and lead the resistance.

To argue against my previous point (because it is a mark of a great tinfoilmancer to be able to hold several mutually contradictory theories) I would point to the hot springs that pump warm, living water through Winterfall like blood through a body as well as the points you have brought up.

Against that I have Ned's recollection of a frozen Hell for the Starks. 

 

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I've just had a ghastly thought - why are the Stark ancestors entombed in crypts like no one else is (in the North, I mean)? Is it because at death they rise again as undead, as Others? Are there generations of Others flailing about in their tombs under Winterfell??? And where ARE Ned's bones??

I'm pretty sure that the swords in the Stark tombs, at least, are meant to prevent wandering, but whether that tradition rose during the Long Night when the Others were a much more local threat or, as I have postulated, because of oaths sworn and marriages possibly consummated I'm not entirely confident.  As for burial and the North, however, don't forget the Dustins, the scions of the Barrow Kings of old who felt strongly enough about the matter to name their dynasty after their tombs. And Lady Dustin nee Ryswell poking about in the Winterfell crypts certainly suggests something beyond nostalgia to me.

[LordImp]

On 31. mai 2016 at 10:58 AM, LmL said:

icy dragons

Your thinking about the cold pond in the Godswood? 

Im really starting to think that the cold pond is a ice dragon that wil rise again. Winterfell is warm because of the hot springs , but the pond is cold. My little theory is that the ice dragon is trapped by the hot springs . 

[LordImp]

On 30. mai 2016 at 3:02 PM, House Cambodia said:

 

Meanwhile, contemporaneously in the far east of Essos, Men had arisen and were using fire magic to build a 'civilization' based on exploitation, militarisation, slavery and environmental degradation. Did an Essosi equivalent of The Children bring something out of the Shadowlands in an unsuccessful attempt to stop them? Did Men build a string of 5 forts to keep them at bay?

 

This is good! I have always  loved the idea about some big threat in Asshai/ Shadowlands. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Your thinking about the cold pond in the Godswood? 

Im really starting to think that the cold pond is a ice dragon that wil rise again. Winterfell is warm because of the hot springs , but the pond is cold. My little theory is that the ice dragon is trapped by the hot springs . 

I think I might have been the first to suggest that, although who knows how many other people have thought of it. I had the idea last year while discussing TWOIAF and the ice dragons. It's very speculative, so I'm not staking anything on it, but it is a tantalizing idea. 

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I still think that Bran "is" the Horn of Winter and he will raise giants by his warg ability.
 

[Sly Wren]

On May 27, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Scorpion92 said:

she was fighting the USURPER in icy armor. If Jon indeed becomes King of Winter and marches south to take Iron Throne like I suggested, he will BECOME that Usurper in her eyes, after all. Starks do not have any known claim to Iron Throne, so I definitely will see how she might view him as a Usurper.

My apologies for the massive delay. I was out of the country for a while and am still playing catch-up in life and in play.

Very good point! I am biased in that I see the dream as wish fulfillment since she gets woken up by Quaithe who seems to rain pretty hard on her parade. But yes--she could definitely see Jon as Usurper.

On May 27, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Scorpion92 said:

I think the last "WTF" moment of the story will be the TRUE heritage of Daenerys. In my opinion, she is BASTARD daughter of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne. Call me coockoo, but I am more and more convinced with this, especially after Barristan's comparison of how Dany and Ashara's eyes are so similar. The whole "lemongate" theory, the mention of Ashara giving a birth to a stillborn daughter, mention of a Stark dishonoring her at Harrenhal tourney, etc. And most importantly, Ashara's body was never found, so she might have left to seek out Oberyn Martell, Elia's brother, to help her in the plot, which I think is the main reason for Oberyn traveling to Braavos and signing that pact with Targaryens.

I don't think you are remotely coockoo! I fully agree that Ashara seems likely to be Dany's mother. I lean more strongly to the idea that Rhaegar is Dany's father via Ashara. Makes a lot of stuff in Dany's storyline make sense. But Ashara as Dany's mother--as you say, the book's laid plenty of groundwork in that direction.

On May 27, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Scorpion92 said:

But the most fun part would be that both Jon and Dany are "ice" and "fire" of this series (and cousins), although "fire" in each is quite different. Like LmL was discussing in his threads, one is pale and pure fire (Dayne) and another red and black and corrupted one (Targaryen). Lots and lots of possibilities.

Agreed! Though I tend to think they will be cousins by Daynes--Jon as Arthur's son, Dany as Ashara's daughter. Solar cousins via the Sword of the Morning Daynes.

But their being cousins by Targaryen blood would be great imagery, too.

On May 27, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Scorpion92 said:

And since Darkstar is Sword of the Evening of this story, I can see him being dispatched by fAegon to deal with these outlaws, and unlike Arthur, Darkstar will be very ruthless with this Brotherhood and kill Edric with Dawn, gaining very little popularity for himself (flip coin to Arthur and his actions) and fAegon's regime in Stormlands. Perfect time, for example, for Edric Storm to come back home as legitimized Baratheon by Dany's favor and win her the support of people of Stormlands.

OOH! Okay--the idea that Darkstar could kill Edric hadn't crossed my mind. I really want that kid to live for some irrational reason, but am wondering if that move might not give Arya impetus to kill Darkstar--assuming everyone's in the right place for that to happen.

[Sly Wren]

On May 27, 2016 at 3:47 PM, LmL said:

Have you had time to check out The Mountain and the Viper or Tyrion Targaryen, my last 2?

Not yet--I've been out of the country for a few weeks and am playing catch-up in life and here. I also need to actually comment on your Moon-Blood one--which is really fabulous. Will hopefully get to it soon.

Any chance you'd be willing to babysit so I can read?

[Sly Wren]

On May 29, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

i am not sure about the once and for all; wouldn't that mean a fairy tale ending?

A fair point.

On May 29, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

If the story is to have a 'morale', then we should expect some kind of 'behave in the future' or else, 'winter may return'. A message to the 21st century humans.

Absolutely. I don't think the powers and magics that raised the Walkers and Winter will go away. But I am wondering if the current iterations will be more wiped out than they were before.

On May 29, 2016 at 4:59 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

I wonder how long ago did the Stark words 'winter is coming' did appear (could not find it in the world book). Could it have been following some untowardly actions from the Kings of the North? getting rid of the Night King?

I had not thought of their being in response to the Night's King. And now I am really liking this idea!!

Yes--the Night's King forgot Winter. Or used it as a weapon instead of seeing it as a problem. Saw the magics that engendered the Others as a weapon vs. a taboo. 

So, yes, the Starks in Winterfell taking those words to make sure the North would remember--That works really well!

On May 30, 2016 at 8:30 PM, LordImp said:

Why havent i read this thread earlier ? Love this ! Good job , Sly Wren . 

 Thanks!

On May 31, 2016 at 3:14 AM, House Cambodia said:

I've just had a ghastly thought - why are the Stark ancestors entombed in crypts like no one else is (in the North, I mean)? Is it because at death they rise again as undead, as Others? Are there generations of Others flailing about in their tombs under Winterfell??? And where ARE Ned's bones??

The idea that the Starks are connected to the Others biologically has been played with on Heresy long before I got there. If the Starks, like Craster, have the right "blood" or bones to be turned into Others. 

But as for the entombing--if they wanted to make sure they didn't rise, they should just burn them. As @Evolett has pointed out, the books make it clear life remains in the bones. So, if this was about stopping the Starks from rising at all, just burn them. If it's about setting them to rest, why leave them statues with swords across the knees?

No--I think the swords are to show they are ready to repel invaders. And protect whatever is at the bottom of the crypt. That they are the sleepers who will wake.

And yes--where are Ned's bones? This should mean that Ned's shade is out there, right?