White Walker Question

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, the first part is a fine theory but it is all pure speculation. There is no indication that the encounter was anything but random. But anything is possible.

The problem with the second part is that the Walkers did not retreat after the last hero showed up and the NW was formed. The Night's King and his pale, blue-eyed queen were sacrificing to the Others, and unless the first 12 Lord Commanders were named and slain in short order, this would have been years, perhaps centuries, after the War for the Dawn was won and the Wall went up. So men, walkers and CotF coexisted for some time after the NW had this awesome weapon that can slay Others with a touch. Odd.

Again, your assumption that dragonsteel must be magical because this is a fantasy novel is just that -- an assumption, and a weak one at that. It kills Others but no one knows how and no one says it was magic in any way, shape or form. And one tale has the cold shattering the LH's sword just before the Others close in on him. So right off the bat we have conflicting stories.

But my original point still stands: If the walkers are so utterly terrified of obsidian and this magical sword and if the have an endless supply of wights to do all their killing for them, then why are they fighting with humans directly? Why are they putting themselves at risk?

 

 

I'll take that as a grudged compliment on the first part of the theory lol.

The Others did retreat, the Long night ended and a peace was resolved. A peace which may have involved sacrifices. But in any event it's clear the Others retreated North no?? I mean they were all the way south apparently but were pushed back. I never said they were utterly destroyed if that's what you think. 

And it's not odd as you point out. 

What is odd about thinking that the last hero had a blade, and companions, he lost all companions, his own blade snapped, then he found the CoTf, gained their help(and a new weapon), drove back the others, killed many, helped stop the long night, then a peace was resolved and the others and men lived in relative harmony as long as they never encroached on each other's turf.

The peace may also have involved blood sacrifices but that's for another thread. 

So, then we have (possibly) who the Others believe to be the LC of the NW ranging very very far north in 298AC with possibly what looks like a special weapon, and then the Others think, wait a minute, what's this shit. And when they did investigate it's obvious they were scoping the blade out.

And btw, my assumption that Dragonsteel would be a magic blade isn't just because this is a fantasy novel. It's because no matter what it's made from, be it obsidian, or if it's an older version of VS just a different name, then they are both magical. That is a fact you can't dispute so please stop trying to.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, the first part is a fine theory but it is all pure speculation. There is no indication that the encounter was anything but random. But anything is possible.

The problem with the second part is that the Walkers did not retreat after the last hero showed up and the NW was formed. The Night's King and his pale, blue-eyed queen were sacrificing to the Others, and unless the first 12 Lord Commanders were named and slain in short order, this would have been years, perhaps centuries, after the War for the Dawn was won and the Wall went up. So men, walkers and CotF coexisted for some time after the NW had this awesome weapon that can slay Others with a touch. Odd.

Again, your assumption that dragonsteel must be magical because this is a fantasy novel is just that -- an assumption, and a weak one at that. It kills Others but no one knows how and no one says it was magic in any way, shape or form. And one tale has the cold shattering the LH's sword just before the Others close in on him. So right off the bat we have conflicting stories.

But my original point still stands: If the walkers are so utterly terrified of obsidian and this magical sword and if the have an endless supply of wights to do all their killing for them, then why are they fighting with humans directly? Why are they putting themselves at risk?

 

 

Here is a reply to your end part where you ask the question on why we see the Others at all if they are so scared of the weapon. 

Doesnt this tie in with your overall strong point for your own debate? I have stated the Others are cautious and that could be a reason we see less of them, since you are making the point we never see them really. 

So yes, they do send their wights to do their fighting because the weapon they fear cannot hurt wights. So this may help explain why we find it hard to see Others around their Wights as much as we would like, as in when the Wights rise.

You mention 'why are they fighting with humans directly', 'why are they putting themselves at risk', I think your meaning along the lines of why are we seeing them at all? As in , if they have these Wights why do they appear at all ever. Well that's simple no? They are an important part of GRRMS story and he has seen fit to insert them so we know they exist. 

In the case of the Prologue, I think it's obvious the Others appear themselves because it is a mission that needs a higher level of intelligence, which the Wights seem to lack. They are shadowing a commanders movements on their turf, who has men and weapons with him, and they may think with caution/fear that this could be a hostile action toward them. So they form up with 6(I think) of their own kind and prepare to trap, and then engage the Commander, with only the leader engaging at first, but with back up if needed. Cautious. And as I've stated they are checking out the commander(Royce's) weapon clearly.

Do you think they could have entrusted this to a group of Wights? No. The Others needed to size this man and his weapon up themselves. And did. Then disposed of him.

I think this is a fair enough assumption if I'm honest of why the Others themselves engaged Royce and never sent their Wights. That and the fact it was obviously GRRMS plan to introduce them to us right off the bat at the beginning of the story.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cheers for laying out some quotes, as to the archmaesters questioning all of it, that just seems like typical archmaester nonsense, so while I would question Knights, and Kings who ruled for a hundred years as suspect, there would definitely be some truth to the runes that the later writers of history copied to lay down historic records.

Good question on when the LC records were written. If Jon is indeed the 998th LC, then this record Sam speaks of was written a span of time back which has seen 324 LC's before Jon in 299AC. It Would need some research to find all LC's mentioned from back in the day. If there was some long reigns, it will be a good deal back in history.

As to Dragonsteel and Valyrian steel, my thinking has always been if it was Obsidian why not just say in the records it was an Obsidian blade? Every other record says the name, like the CoTf giving the NE Obsidian daggers, weapons etc. Why say Dragon 'Steel'?

I thought it was a clear set up by GRRM for us readers to get the nod that the Valyrian steel blades that are scattered around the place, actually damage the Others, including Jons Longclaw, only that once upon a time, it was named Dragon steel. 

The Valyrians did not have to create Dragonsteel. Iron was found and used in places in the Age of heroes. The iron islands. Also the Reynes built with iron in the age of heroes. Steel is made by melting down iron.

Also the Valyrians were taught by the Rhoynar how to make steel. 

The Cymmeri were apparently the first to make steel before the Rhoynar.

Also the Valyrians never created Dragons, didn't they discover them in the fourteen flames? But they weren't the first to discover them I don't think. 

So with this info isnt it possible that Dragonsteel could have been forged before the Valyrians but the Valyrians perfected the technique later and now in current times everybody just thinks, wow, that is 'Valyrian' steel.

I do wonder how the Last hero got one though, that is perplexing, but just as perplexing is why it is called Dragon steel and not just an obsidian blade if that's what he used. 

I think the next book will touch on this more but it's clear the Others feared the blade Royce carried(at first) and I see you think it's because they thought he was Azor Ahai, that could be possible, maybe the Others think the prophecies are intertwined and AA is the Last hero returned and he is the LC of the NW. 

As to the Comet, would the Comet have been seen as early as the Prologue?

Truth be known, I don’t know much about this stuff. I find the WW topic interesting and snooping around in the books gives me something to do when I want to procrastinate. Putting in the quotes & references is my way of sharing what I found while doing my snooping.

You have brought forth some very interesting thoughts to ponder on.  I haven’t bought nor read WoIaF so I can’t comment on the history. For some reason or another it never occurred to me that there were dragons flying around before the Valyrians.

As to the comet, I’m not willing to take on another snoop fest right now and I’m disappointed that more people haven’t chimed in on the topic of the WW’s.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You said a blade infused with obsidian not me. 

And yes, you can be absolutely sure the blade the last hero killed others with was magical. If it is made with magical properties of course it is magical, whether it is GRRMS magic obsidian or if it is an older version of VS which we know is magical.

You are stating your own belief on Sam I'm afraid, you are claiming a second thought that the text hasn't stated yet. 

What Sam means is that is what popped right into his head, the first thought. 

That doesnt mean he later had a second thought because Jon still thinks Sam thinks the blades are the same and we the reader have had no text claiming Sam has had this 'second thought'.

When have we seen any evidence they dismissed the idea?

We are getting off the point again to be honest. Do you agree theres a very high chance the Others feared Royce's blade because they fear it could be the same weapon from back in the day that killed their people during the Long night, battle for dawn etc. 

Regardless of what it's made of.

Regardless, infused is the wrong word. Embedded would be more accurate. So the blade itself would be non-magical but the obsidian would be, not that it makes any difference to the walkers. But that is different from a blade like Lightbringer that was itself imbued with magic through a ceremony. That's what I meant. BTW, you don't get steel by melting down iron. That's just melted iron. You make steel by alloying iron with carbon, usually coal.

But regardless, take a look at all we have on this: one scroll dating back thousands of years, that is itself a retelling of an oral history that dates back thousands of years before that. So not only is the very existence of dragonsteel suspect, let alone its magicalness, but so is the existence of the LH and his blade. So no, it is not 100 percent certain that dragonsteel is magical just because this is a fantasy novel. I, for one, do not buy into the thinking that goes "if it wasn't true, GR would not put it in the story." He puts all kinds of things into the story that are not true: false tales, misperceptions, outright lies... Just because someone wrote it on a scroll back in the Dawn Age does not make it true.

The only reason Sam would describe it as a first thought is if he had a second thought as well. Otherwise, it would just be a thought. And again, this is all irrelevant. Even is Jon and Sam both believe the tale, that still does not make it true.

Yes, of course, there is a chance that the Others feared Royce's blade. That is the point I'm trying to make all along. If they had so much fear of humans and their blades, why do they risk themselves in face-to-face combat when they can just get their army of undead mind-slaves to do their killing for them?

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Here is a reply to your end part where you ask the question on why we see the Others at all if they are so scared of the weapon. 

Doesnt this tie in with your overall strong point for your own debate? I have stated the Others are cautious and that could be a reason we see less of them, since you are making the point we never see them really. 

So yes, they do send their wights to do their fighting because the weapon they fear cannot hurt wights. So this may help explain why we find it hard to see Others around their Wights as much as we would like, as in when the Wights rise.

You mention 'why are they fighting with humans directly', 'why are they putting themselves at risk', I think your meaning along the lines of why are we seeing them at all? As in , if they have these Wights why do they appear at all ever. Well that's simple no? They are an important part of GRRMS story and he has seen fit to insert them so we know they exist. 

In the case of the Prologue, I think it's obvious the Others appear themselves because it is a mission that needs a higher level of intelligence, which the Wights seem to lack. They are shadowing a commanders movements on their turf, who has men and weapons with him, and they may think with caution/fear that this could be a hostile action toward them. So they form up with 6(I think) of their own kind and prepare to trap, and then engage the Commander, with only the leader engaging at first, but with back up if needed. Cautious. And as I've stated they are checking out the commander(Royce's) weapon clearly.

Do you think they could have entrusted this to a group of Wights? No. The Others needed to size this man and his weapon up themselves. And did. Then disposed of him.

I think this is a fair enough assumption if I'm honest of why the Others themselves engaged Royce and never sent their Wights. That and the fact it was obviously GRRMS plan to introduce them to us right off the bat at the beginning of the story.

 

Sorry, didn't read this before my last post.

And yet we have a group of walkers who have just reanimated a score of wildlings, but they choose to confront Royce directly instead. We have another one who takes on three terrifying humans single-handed, even he should have an army of undead watchmen from the Fist. Doesn't make sense. They are either terrified of humans or not. Judging by their actions, I can only conclude they are not.

Why hasn't GRRM shown us what scared Bran in the Land of Always Winter? It's obviously important to the story, so GR should either show us what it is or confirm that it is the walkers. Again, I'm not saying the encounter was not deliberate -- Royce and Co. did stop at Crasters on the way north -- just that there is no way to confirm it either way. So to take this as a 100 percent certainty, and then build on it to state that the walkers are undoubtedly raising and controlling the wights is faulty logic.

And a lot of people, too many in fact, buy into this idea that GR writes things just for plot purposes, but he denies it and I believe him. If he wanted to move the plot along, he never would have sent Dany all the way to Quarth -- the dragons would just grow rapidly and she would already be back in Westeros fulfilling her destiny. The ironmen would just descend into infighting, or not be in the story at all. Robb would have marched south and avenged his father, end of story.

So no, the walkers aren't where they are just because GR needs to alert us to their presence. If they are as terrified of humans and their magic sword as you say, then they are either fleeing something up north or desirous of something down south, and the only time they would make an appearance is after all the scary humans are gone.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 6 May 2016 at 3:09 AM, John Suburbs said:

Regardless, infused is the wrong word. Embedded would be more accurate. So the blade itself would be non-magical but the obsidian would be, not that it makes any difference to the walkers. But that is different from a blade like Lightbringer that was itself imbued with magic through a ceremony. That's what I meant. BTW, you don't get steel by melting down iron. That's just melted iron. You make steel by alloying iron with carbon, usually coal.

But regardless, take a look at all we have on this: one scroll dating back thousands of years, that is itself a retelling of an oral history that dates back thousands of years before that. So not only is the very existence of dragonsteel suspect, let alone its magicalness, but so is the existence of the LH and his blade. So no, it is not 100 percent certain that dragonsteel is magical just because this is a fantasy novel. I, for one, do not buy into the thinking that goes "if it wasn't true, GR would not put it in the story." He puts all kinds of things into the story that are not true: false tales, misperceptions, outright lies... Just because someone wrote it on a scroll back in the Dawn Age does not make it true.

The only reason Sam would describe it as a first thought is if he had a second thought as well. Otherwise, it would just be a thought. And again, this is all irrelevant. Even is Jon and Sam both believe the tale, that still does not make it true.

Yes, of course, there is a chance that the Others feared Royce's blade. That is the point I'm trying to make all along. If they had so much fear of humans and their blades, why do they risk themselves in face-to-face combat when they can just get their army of undead mind-slaves to do their killing for them?

So to be clear, do you think the Last hero wielded a steel blade embedded with Obsidian?

And while we are on the topic of The Last hero and his magical blade and Lightbringer, to hear the Asshai'i tell it, TLH 'is' the person who wielded Lightbringer.

TWOIAF - Ancient history, The Long Night:

"It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return."

So if we look at it from this angle, or any angle for that matter, the sword that slays Others(magical living creatures of some form of magical ice), is a magical sword.

Yes, there is a couple more steps to making steel, thanks for the obvious point out, but the main action is to smelt down iron.

In the Age of heroes people worked with Iron, the earlier settlers on the Iron Islands. The Reynes worked with iron back then. So we have the means to make steel in the Age of heroes yes? Even the Valyrians themselves were taught, by the Rhoynar to work iron. The Cymmeri claim to be the first to work Iron.

Also, do you think the Valyrians invented dragons? They discovered them in their fourteen flames but im quite sure Dragons were around alot longer than the Valyrians.

So if there was means to make steel, and dragons around, its possible that Dragonsteel was made in the Age of heroes. But as the Valyrians later tamed Dragons, and perfected their weaponry craftmanship and surpassed everybody, the art today is now known as Valyrian steel. Its possible in my eyes but im not stating its true.

I have always believed that this is just how GRRM is giving us the nod that all the VS blades in the realm, including Jons Longclaw, is valuable in the fight against the Others in that it is devestating to them, having been forged in Dragon flame. Its just my belief, and if it turns out that Dragonsteel is not Valyrian steel then ill eat my hat but i think this is the way GRRM is setting it up in the novels to tell us VS kills Others, because that makes sense to me, and lets face it, VS being able to kill Others is surely where the story is heading no? (And no, i havent taken that from the show, it just seems logical in the novels to).

On to Sam, i disagree with you, i just think its the first thing that pops into his head, no second thought comes. Even up until he parts from Jon he keeps the same thought, he doesnt change it and run up to Jon and say wait, i think this Dragonsteel is a different type of blade now! And we know this never happened becasue 1. we never read it, and 2. Jon remembers later that Sam thinks DS is VS.

We also never see Sam change his mind later on page with a second thought, ever. So its safe to go with the first thought popped in to his head because that was his thought. No second thought, that we know of anyway.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

On ‎06‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:33 AM, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, didn't read this before my last post.

And yet we have a group of walkers who have just reanimated a score of wildlings, but they choose to confront Royce directly instead. We have another one who takes on three terrifying humans single-handed, even he should have an army of undead watchmen from the Fist. Doesn't make sense. They are either terrified of humans or not. Judging by their actions, I can only conclude they are not.

Why hasn't GRRM shown us what scared Bran in the Land of Always Winter? It's obviously important to the story, so GR should either show us what it is or confirm that it is the walkers. Again, I'm not saying the encounter was not deliberate -- Royce and Co. did stop at Crasters on the way north -- just that there is no way to confirm it either way. So to take this as a 100 percent certainty, and then build on it to state that the walkers are undoubtedly raising and controlling the wights is faulty logic.

And a lot of people, too many in fact, buy into this idea that GR writes things just for plot purposes, but he denies it and I believe him. If he wanted to move the plot along, he never would have sent Dany all the way to Quarth -- the dragons would just grow rapidly and she would already be back in Westeros fulfilling her destiny. The ironmen would just descend into infighting, or not be in the story at all. Robb would have marched south and avenged his father, end of story.

So no, the walkers aren't where they are just because GR needs to alert us to their presence. If they are as terrified of humans and their magic sword as you say, then they are either fleeing something up north or desirous of something down south, and the only time they would make an appearance is after all the scary humans are gone.

 

Didnt i just explain why the Others would not use the dead reanimated Wildlings for a mission of intelligence to scope out the Commander and his potentially dangerous blade?

GRRM needed to write it this way to give us the idea the Others are analysing the weapon. How is he going to do that if we just see a bunch of animated wildling wights just kill Royce at the beginning of the story?. Come on, please follow.

And the other instance you mention, doesnt it seem to you the Others already exercised caution by sending the Wights to storm the Fist and then they come to finish off the stragglers running away? But.... Theres a reason we read of this instance aswell, its to tell us something. That big Sam Slayer has A Dragonglass dagger and it can kill Others.

A quick mention on Dany in Qarth, there are many many valuable pieces of info from Danys chapters in Qarth and they sure as hell meant something. You should maybe go read them. Remember the undying John Suburbs.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Clegane'sPup I couldn't reply normally so I'll do it this way. 

You should buy and read the World book mate, it's a great addition to the series I think and a good collectors item if you love asoiaf. The artwork is magic, the family trees are brilliant and there is some info In there that equips you well for forum discussions. 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 5/7/2016 at 6:08 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

@Clegane'sPup I couldn't reply normally so I'll do it this way. 

You should buy and read the World book mate, it's a great addition to the series I think and a good collectors item if you love asoiaf. The artwork is magic, the family trees are brilliant and there is some info In there that equips you well for forum discussions. 

I refuse to buy any ASOIAF material until the WoW comes out. I read the novellas by checking out multiple books from the library. I don’t have the App either. If I have to purchase companion material to understand a series of novels it seems to me the novels have been poorly written. That of course is a personal opinion that requires no validation.

I am glad that people find the extra material interesting and enjoyable. I firmly believe the novels of the ASOIAFstory should be able to stand on its own merit.

Back to the Other’s and the wights;  Mormont sent Thorne to KL with what; was it an arm or a hand in a jar. It, whatever it was rotted before Thorne could get an audience Tyrion.

Any idea why? Was it because the wight item was sealed in a jar or was it because the item was taken to a warmer climate?

 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I refuse to buy any ASOIAF material until the WoW comes out. I read the novellas by checking out multiple books from the library. I don’t have the App either. If I have to purchase companion material to understand a series of novels it seems to me the novels have been poorly written. That of course is a personal opinion that requires no validation.

I am glad that people find the extra material interesting and enjoyable. I firmly believe the novels of the ASOIAFstory should be able to stand on its own merit.

Back to the Other’s and the wights;  Mormont sent Thorne to KL with what; was it an arm or a hand in a jar. It, whatever it was rotted before Thorne could get an audience Tyrion.

Any idea why? Was it because the wight item was sealed in a jar or was it because the item was taken to a warmer climate?

 

The World book is not a book that is intended to help people understand the series. It's just a nice addition to the whole package deal if, like me, you enjoy reading everything on the given topic to hand. Anything extra is a bonus for me. Kinda like what Tolkien says about the appendices of LOTR, some people will completely swerve them where I devoured them. It's just a personal taste I suppose.

It's essentially a coffee table book. Great if you want to sift through something while waiting for Winds to come out and you have read all other materials like the Novellas and the other two smaller Targaryen shorter stories that focus around the Dance.

As to the hand Thorne takes south. I thought it was because it was taken further south away from the powers that animate the Wights, which is certainly something to do with the cold, so yes, a hotter climate could be part of that explanation.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The World book is not a book that is intended to help people understand the series. It's just a nice addition to the whole package deal if, like me, you enjoy reading everything on the given topic to hand. Anything extra is a bonus for me. Kinda like what Tolkien says about the appendices of LOTR, some people will completely swerve them where I devoured them. It's just a personal taste I suppose.

It's essentially a coffee table book. Great if you want to sift through something while waiting for Winds to come out and you have read all other materials like the Novellas and the other two smaller Targaryen shorter stories that focus around the Dance.

As to the hand Thorne takes south. I thought it was because it was taken further south away from the powers that animate the Wights, which is certainly something to do with the cold, so yes, a hotter climate could be part of that explanation.

It is a pain in my arse to get onto the book forum until two days after the thing that cannot be mentioned has been aired.

The reason I was asking about the piece of wight Thorne took to KL is because of what happened when Jon took the new recruits out to the weirwood grove to say vows (c.35 DwD).

Night was falling fast. There were wildlings in the grove. There was no battle partly because Leathers was able to speak Old Tongue. After all was said & done everyone starts heading back to CB.

Two wildlings in the group were dead. Jon says to bring them. He might have use for them. It was almost dawn before they reached the Wall.  Those two dead wildlings did not turn into wights even though it was cold & dark. Jon had the corpses placed in ices cells after the group entered CB.

The two wildling corpses are still in the cells and haven’t turned into wights when the Karstark people show up (c. 49 DwD).

I guess what I am trying to figure out is, what is the different circumstance between the two dead wildlings found in the weirwood grove (c.35 DwD) and Benjen’s two dead men, Othor & Flowers (c.52 GoT).

Someone popping in to say blue eyes don’t count. I think that ole black crow over in heresy might be knowing sumptin bout WW and their ilk, but the ole black crow seems to like staying with his murder. For fun and for free checkout the link. Has nothing to do with Other’s/WW or wights.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/a-murder-of-crows-crow-facts/5965/

 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It is a pain in my arse to get onto the book forum until two days after the thing that cannot be mentioned has been aired.

The reason I was asking about the piece of wight Thorne took to KL is because of what happened when Jon took the new recruits out to the weirwood grove to say vows (c.35 DwD).

Night was falling fast. There were wildlings in the grove. There was no battle partly because Leathers was able to speak Old Tongue. After all was said & done everyone starts heading back to CB.

Two wildlings in the group were dead. Jon says to bring them. He might have use for them. It was almost dawn before they reached the Wall.  Those two dead wildlings did not turn into wights even though it was cold & dark. Jon had the corpses placed in ices cells after the group entered CB.

The two wildling corpses are still in the cells and haven’t turned into wights when the Karstark people show up (c. 49 DwD).

I guess what I am trying to figure out is, what is the different circumstance between the two dead wildlings found in the weirwood grove (c.35 DwD) and Benjen’s two dead men, Othor & Flowers (c.52 GoT).

Someone popping in to say blue eyes don’t count. I think that ole black crow over in heresy might be knowing sumptin bout WW and their ilk, but the ole black crow seems to like staying with his murder. For fun and for free checkout the link. Has nothing to do with Other’s/WW or wights.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/a-murder-of-crows-crow-facts/5965/

 

It's a great question actually. A few things have passed through my head on the matter but If I'm honest it may boil down to the sole reason that GRRM has a plan in mind that he simply has not put on page yet. 

As to my thoughts why they hadn't turned, other than GRRM deliberately stalling their reanimating, I remember noting the fire that the Wildlings had burning, which was possibly making the Others wary of reanimating the Wights while they were dead in the grove, probably unlikely. I also remember thinking was it something to do with the Weirwood grove itself? Was there magic involved that was holding the Wights from being reanimated?, not sure. Then we know Jon travels with them and they don't turn so possibly the Others are wary at coming close because they aren't very far from the wall and the Others are possibly even more cautious of Rangers of the NW after one of their own kind had been killed recently by a NW member with a weapon that kills their kind. Could be? I would have to read the whole chapter again to see if the text shows any of the characters in the chapter feeling as though they are being watched/followed. Because in the Royce prologue we get plenty of that vibe, that the Others were screening their movements and were actually shadowing them. 

In this instance I just don't think the Others were around Jon and co. I will read the chapter again in full though. 

As to when the corpses are actually in the cells, it may have something to do with the being shackled in irons and actually being literally in/under the Wall and perhaps the necromancy or whatever powers are used cannot work there. 

That, and a combination of the Others not being close by to raise them, and also GRRM maybe having plans to raise them later, I can only assume this may explain why this instance is different to Benjens men rising as Wights, which we at least know was a mission set up to eliminate two high ranking officers of the NW, Mormont, and Jaremy Rykker.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 2:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

So to be clear, do you think the Last hero wielded a steel blade embedded with Obsidian?

And while we are on the topic of The Last hero and his magical blade and Lightbringer, to hear the Asshai'i tell it, TLH 'is' the person who wielded Lightbringer.

TWOIAF - Ancient history, The Long Night:

"It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return."

So if we look at it from this angle, or any angle for that matter, the sword that slays Others(magical living creatures of some form of magical ice), is a magical sword.

Yes, there is a couple more steps to making steel, thanks for the obvious point out, but the main action is to smelt down iron.

In the Age of heroes people worked with Iron, the earlier settlers on the Iron Islands. The Reynes worked with iron back then. So we have the means to make steel in the Age of heroes yes? Even the Valyrians themselves were taught, by the Rhoynar to work iron. The Cymmeri claim to be the first to work Iron.

Also, do you think the Valyrians invented dragons? They discovered them in their fourteen flames but im quite sure Dragons were around alot longer than the Valyrians.

So if there was means to make steel, and dragons around, its possible that Dragonsteel was made in the Age of heroes. But as the Valyrians later tamed Dragons, and perfected their weaponry craftmanship and surpassed everybody, the art today is now known as Valyrian steel. Its possible in my eyes but im not stating its true.

I have always believed that this is just how GRRM is giving us the nod that all the VS blades in the realm, including Jons Longclaw, is valuable in the fight against the Others in that it is devestating to them, having been forged in Dragon flame. Its just my belief, and if it turns out that Dragonsteel is not Valyrian steel then ill eat my hat but i think this is the way GRRM is setting it up in the novels to tell us VS kills Others, because that makes sense to me, and lets face it, VS being able to kill Others is surely where the story is heading no? (And no, i havent taken that from the show, it just seems logical in the novels to).

On to Sam, i disagree with you, i just think its the first thing that pops into his head, no second thought comes. Even up until he parts from Jon he keeps the same thought, he doesnt change it and run up to Jon and say wait, i think this Dragonsteel is a different type of blade now! And we know this never happened becasue 1. we never read it, and 2. Jon remembers later that Sam thinks DS is VS.

We also never see Sam change his mind later on page with a second thought, ever. So its safe to go with the first thought popped in to his head because that was his thought. No second thought, that we know of anyway.

 

We can't even be certain there was one last hero, many last heros, whether their swords were magic or not. All the legends could be just a whole lot of bunk. They are like prophecies, and words... wind.

I don't see how you get from the WB entry on AA that this is the same LH that slew others. The LH's sword wasn't red and it didn't glow, apparently. Also, that same entry says the Yi Ti version of the legend says the darkness ended by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

Yes, Valyrians tamed dragons. The only other people to do this were the Yi Ti back in the Dawn Age. So no, there is no record of anyone having dragons at their disposal at the time the LH was slaying others. If there were, I'm sure they would have been mentioned in the histories.

No reason to eat hats or anything else. Just like I should stop using hyperbole to make my points with factually incorrect statements, you might want to consider from 100 percent certainty unless and until there is clear and compelling evidence, mate. Sorry, old tales and legends don't cut it.

Again, it doesn't matter what Sam thought either. Neither of them know for a fact, so therefore it cannot be taken as a fact.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 2:48 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

Didnt i just explain why the Others would not use the dead reanimated Wildlings for a mission of intelligence to scope out the Commander and his potentially dangerous blade?

GRRM needed to write it this way to give us the idea the Others are analysing the weapon. How is he going to do that if we just see a bunch of animated wildling wights just kill Royce at the beginning of the story?. Come on, please follow.

And the other instance you mention, doesnt it seem to you the Others already exercised caution by sending the Wights to storm the Fist and then they come to finish off the stragglers running away? But.... Theres a reason we read of this instance aswell, its to tell us something. That big Sam Slayer has A Dragonglass dagger and it can kill Others.

A quick mention on Dany in Qarth, there are many many valuable pieces of info from Danys chapters in Qarth and they sure as hell meant something. You should maybe go read them. Remember the undying John Suburbs.

Yes, I apologized for posting before reading your subsequent post. As I said, it's a fine theory, but there is nothing to back it up, so I don't see how it can be used to produce the 100 percent certainty you say you have regarding the walkers and wights, the magic sword and all the rest.

Only facts should inform a firm conclusion, not conjecture.

Dany could have learned all those "facts" somewhere in Myr, Lys, Volantis or any of the other cities on her way back to Westeros. No reason for a huge detour into Slaver's Bay. If he'd kept it tight using all sorts of contrivances the way other writers do, he could have wrapped it up in three books, maybe four. He didn't because Martin has created an entirely new form of literature. He sees himself as a gardener, planting seeds and letting them grow. He doesn't write chapters thinking to himself, OK now I have to have (insert character) do this just to show the readers that (insert idea). His plots evolve by the actions of people living real lives, not characters playing parts in a book.  

[Voice]

@John Suburbs, @Macgregor of the North... just get a room already. lol

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We can't even be certain there was one last hero, many last heros, whether their swords were magic or not. All the legends could be just a whole lot of bunk. They are like prophecies, and words... wind.

I don't see how you get from the WB entry on AA that this is the same LH that slew others. The LH's sword wasn't red and it didn't glow, apparently. Also, that same entry says the Yi Ti version of the legend says the darkness ended by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

Yes, Valyrians tamed dragons. The only other people to do this were the Yi Ti back in the Dawn Age. So no, there is no record of anyone having dragons at their disposal at the time the LH was slaying others. If there were, I'm sure they would have been mentioned in the histories.

No reason to eat hats or anything else. Just like I should stop using hyperbole to make my points with factually incorrect statements, you might want to consider from 100 percent certainty unless and until there is clear and compelling evidence, mate. Sorry, old tales and legends don't cut it.

Again, it doesn't matter what Sam thought either. Neither of them know for a fact, so therefore it cannot be taken as a fact.

I never got that from the World book, it's clear I said that while we are on the topic of Lightbringer and Magic swords etc that in the Asshai'i version of the Long Night it's AA wielding Lightbringer, that's how they tell their version of the Long night involving their hero. And a red sword could easily be a misinterpretation through history of a sword that was made by smelting down Iron Ore with the highest temperature around, Dragonflame.

This is possible when you take into account that's there historic records, and an instilled belief in some people that Dragons are originally from Asshai. 

Theres even records that state it was possibly the Asshai who taught the Valyrians their arts concerning Dragons etc. 

The Valyrians werent great inventors of everything magical, they were taught how to work iron, so it's possible they were taught their spell working/Dragon magic to. People are taught things, it's just that the Valyrians surpass their teachers in nearly all they are taught. They are masters of their craft- when it's taught to them.

On Dragons- GRRM has stated their were Dragons everywhere once, and it's my belief there were plenty around before Valyria and its people. There are bones found all over the place to. You say the Yi ti were taming Dragons in the dawn age? That's way before the Age of heroes and the Long night.

So to me, the possibility of a people/civilisation mining Iron Ore, then using Dragonflame to forge a weapon/sword is highly possible. 

I'm not saying it's fact, but you have to agree, it's very possible no?

To be clear on Sam, I'm not claiming its fact because Sam thinks it, although Sam is a good judge of things, the fact I'm stating is that Sam thought, and still thinks it. It was his first thought, not an earlier thought to be replaced by a second- it was the first thought that popped into his head. As we stand in the books, that's a fact.