White Walker Question

[Voice]

37 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

The gate is deep below the nightfort, yet it is level with the ground on the north side (well, there is no text saying otherwise).

Don't mean to sound rude here, truly. But I think that is just the way you are imagining it. There actually is text stating otherwise:

The gate the Nightfort guarded had been sealed since the day the black brothers had loaded up their mules and garrons and departed for Deep Lake; its iron portcullis lowered, the chains that raised it carried off, the tunnel packed with stone and rubble all frozen together until they were as impenetrable as the Wall itself.

Thus, the land on the other side of the Wall from the Nightfort is at castle level. The gate the Brothers sealed was not the only one, but it was the only one at ground level. Samwell leads Bran deep underground (and again, under the Wall) before reaching the Black Gate. Might be that they went deeper still. No tellin. But we do know that they were underground by that point.

The North Entrance/Exit is never described, but I'm betting it is underground, in a cave, beneath a weirwood.

Remember the tale of Gendel and Gorne... and remember what Bran found beneath Bloodraven's throne room. Caves systems, underground rivers.

37 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

If it is an entrance to an underground passage, neither Bran nor Sam saw it.

Well, technically they did, on the way down.

If you are talking about their way up, it is not described in subsequent POV chapters. We do not know what the saw after walking through the Gate, so we certainly cannot assert what they did not see.

37 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

However such a passage could lead to the CotF cave system which Bran and party could have used to reach BR, except i guess Coldhands can't enter it.

Yup.

And we know that there are two places to date that Coldhands cannot go. He cannot enter Leaf's Gate, and he cannot enter the Black Gate.

37 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Then there is this final sentence ' The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear. '

Is the weirwood inhabitant crying for Bran?

Well mayhaps, but I don't think so. While that is certainly a poetic way of looking at it, when Bran weeps in the tree, he wonders if the face of it is weeping. But we know that when weirwoods weep, they weep red sap that looks like blood, rather than salty water.

I think the Wall was weeping. As it does on warm days. And, I believe this moment proves that the Wall is made of saltwater.

Enter the Drowned God, a weirwood gate that has slipped into a sea of warm milk (Gared), and what is dead may never die...but rises harder and stronger.

I'd argue nothing has ever risen harder and stronger than the Wall.

[Arry'sFleas]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Don't mean to sound rude here, truly. But I think that is just the way you are imagining it. There actually is text stating otherwise:

Presumably the gate you are referring to was at ground level on both sides.

 

1 hour ago, Voice said:

The North Entrance/Exit is never described, but I'm betting it is underground, in a cave, beneath a weirwood.

Apologies. You are correct the north entrance/exit used by Sam and Bran is not described by either of them. It is interesting that the author left this geo detail out.

 

1 hour ago, Voice said:

And we know that there are two places to date that Coldhands cannot go. He cannot enter Leaf's Gate, and he cannot enter the Black Gate.

yep. 

 

 

[zalim]

you have to look it like this...

I  believe white walkers are long dead greenseers and wights are wargs BUT 

we know mostly when a greenseer or warg dies he can move his or her consious into weirwood net like children....

now imagine there are those who dont want to be a part of hive minded consiousness..the most powerfull of those (who used to be greenseers like bran or bloodraven) go out and make themselves new bodies out of ice and other (who used to be wargs) take bodies ot dead people...

this will not only make them immortal but very very powerfull... 

this will also explain how the white walker king managed to bring back so many dead bodies back up (in hardhome) or anywhere else.

 

now i also believe that these white walkers and deads might be HUMAN greenseers and wargs NOT  the children because white walker came to westeros after FIRST MEN became friendly with children and possible mated with them and got the abilities themselves...

If its all true then i do believe wights can survive without white walkers or white walker king...

[evita mgfs]

I have been developing an essay exploring possible origins of the Others, and here is a small part of my work in progress:

Anticipating the extinction of their race, the singers take action to protect the thousand thousand years of accumulated knowledge that has become part of their sacred trees, their godhood.  To the singers, knowledge and its pursuit is the supreme power for their race and other races as well.

However, since misinformed men who have no appreciation for knowledge or the pursuit of such cut down, destroy and/or discard the houses of knowledge sacred to the children, the singers look to the magic of ice as a means of safely preserving their centuries of arduous, tedious, and combined efforts.

As part of the Pact, the singers endow select representatives with magic powers that allow them to access the knowledge in order to share it with wider audiences to better humanity.  In turn, those appointed with responsibility promise to safeguard the singers and their lands from further encroachment by their enemies.

The exact terms of the Pact between the singers and the First Men 10,000 years past are not entirely known, other than the distribution of lands between the two warring parties endeavoring to make peace.

It is likely that the singers bargained with gifts of powerful magic which they bestowed conditionally upon those First Men most deserving of executing these blessings responsibly without abusing them.

The mastery and effective use of warging, skinchanging, and greendreams qualified members of families the eventual attainment of greensight and the role of becoming custodians of the vast enriching knowledge stored in the trees and earth.

Those men who commanded magic irresponsibly subsequently lost favor with those overseeing the maintenance of the powers; hence, the singers rightfully and understandably revoked the gifts under the preset terms of the Pact.

Houses Stark, Reed, and Mormont proved themselves worthy in managing the gifts, so in return, these special Houses became allies of the singers serving as their protectors and discouraged encroachment upon those lands designated for the singers and the singers alone.

In spite of the Pact, the singers wanted to guarantee the preservation of their vast stores of wisdom, and they may have found a way to secure a portion of their learning in caves of ice far from the grasp of men who could not be trusted with these potentially dangerous spells.

Among these enchantments are animating the dead of any species, controlling the nature and aggression of the cold, and deploying other assorted charms of transformation, glamors, and bewitchments. Safeguarding these bountiful treasures held in ice are appointed singers and their greenseers.  However, the singers did not account for another humanoid race equally tempted by the possibilities of extending their line to avoid sure extinction.

The possibilities of raising the dead and advancing a dangerous cold would allow these Others to expand, grow, and prosper.

The White Walkers acquire the magic by nefarious means, and their hearts of ice forbid them from feeling emotions innate to men and singers.

Consequently, with the intelligence of spells and histories, the WW became experts on the shortcomings of the races, and the realms of men proved the weakest and the easiest to target.

Assessing the juvenility of men, yet observing how men covet power, land, wealth., violence, sex, and more, the White Walkers articulated a plan to overtake these realms of men, collectively an undeserving lot who permitted their selfish desires to dictate their thoughts and actions.

Men’s innate compunction for evil, their inhumanity to one another, and their contentment to manipulate or to be manipulated, make them ideal puppets to serve under the White Walkers who will take men’s wits and their voices and pull their strings to make cold corpses perform the dance of dead men.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Mormonts watchmen were marching south as fast as they could, and presumably some WW's would have needed to reanimate the corpses at the fist, whether that requires their physical presence or not 's unknown but in any event they would have needed to catch up.  Also, the simple fact that the WW's think the NW has dragonsteal is enough to make them cautious.  And as to your point out the WW's being cowards for not confronting the watch, I would point out every fantasy series there is does the same.  Lets take Marvel since it's really popular right now, Thanos is more powerful than any/all avengers, yet he hides in the background until the final act because that is how stories are told.

I believe you are just playing devils advocate about the WW and wights being connected, but come on, there is either a link or we have gone 5/7ths through a story without entire segments of magic/creatures and spells being revealed to us and with the author deliberately making us think they are connected.

Exactly my point. There is no reason to think that just because Sam believes there are wights and walkers killing watchmen in the rear that it is actually happening. The walkers don't have any reason to think there is are any obsidian weapons until the encounter with Sam, which was long after they lost contact with the retreating column.

I don't know what Marvel does with its villains, but the walkers in this story are not cowards. They didn't hide from Waymar; there is no reason to hide from Sam -- not after he slew the walker, and certainly not before. So the most logical conclusion is that it was a lone walker, ergo it could not have reanimated Small Paul. Perhaps another walker happened by, but that is all speculation.

The facts we have are these: wights are seen in singles, small groups and en masse, but so far not with any walkers present. Wights have also arisen from corpses in a very short time (Thistle), but again, no walkers present. Contrast that with the fact that they both have blue eyes and it gets very cold when both are present. So at this point, it's a toss-up.

And yes, I am playing devil's advocate here because it would make more sense for the story for the two to be working together. But we also don't know the whole story yet, and it could very well be that the walkers are fleeing the real terror of the north, which is actually responsible for animating the wights -- it might even be Bloodraven. And it wouldn't be the first time that GR has strung us along for several novels having us believe one thing and the springing the reveal later (the Arryn murder, the Bran attempt, the Westerling conspiracy). If everything just happens exactly the way you expect, well that makes for a pretty boring story.

My bone of contention is the way some people (not you) cop a snotty, dismissive attitude whenever an new idea is presented, arguing that it could not possibly be true because it doesn't "fit the narrative" or "fulfill the story arc properly" or some such other nonsense. And then they try to cover themselves without outright falsehoods like the wights and walkers were together in the prologue, when it fact they were separated by several hours, or that walkers were seen attacking the first when no such account exists anywhere in the text. If people want to limit themselves to their own one-dimensional thinking, that's fine, and by all means express you views on the board, but they should try doing it with a civil attitude.

 

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, zalim said:

you have to look it like this...

I  believe white walkers are long dead greenseers and wights are wargs BUT 

we know mostly when a greenseer or warg dies he can move his or her consious into weirwood net like children....

now imagine there are those who dont want to be a part of hive minded consiousness..the most powerfull of those (who used to be greenseers like bran or bloodraven) go out and make themselves new bodies out of ice and other (who used to be wargs) take bodies ot dead people...

this will not only make them immortal but very very powerfull... 

this will also explain how the white walker king managed to bring back so many dead bodies back up (in hardhome) or anywhere else.

 

now i also believe that these white walkers and deads might be HUMAN greenseers and wargs NOT  the children because white walker came to westeros after FIRST MEN became friendly with children and possible mated with them and got the abilities themselves...

If its all true then i do believe wights can survive without white walkers or white walker king...

I've always been struck by what Davos sees when he is ushered into Stannis' presence on Dragonstone after the loss on the Blackwater:

"The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm's End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king's close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now his bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face."

Compare that with:

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk... Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice."

Does it seem as if Stannis is becoming very walker-like in appearance?

 

[zalim]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I've always been struck by what Davos sees when he is ushered into Stannis' presence on Dragonstone after the loss on the Blackwater:

"The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm's End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king's close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now his bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face."

Compare that with:

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk... Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice."

Does it seem as if Stannis is becoming very walker-like in appearance?

 

no not really, stannis is a human and i personally believe that it was him who actually killed renly and not melisandre, she just played glamour trick to make davos a believer but in reality she tricked stannis into killing renly using teke (teke is a world GRRM uses for Teleknisis abilities in some humans to move objects or manipulate light or to make dead bodies move to kill ppl) 

it is mentioned that stannis went to sleep during the time renly got killed and i remember that he had a dream of him killing renly so i do believe he killed renly and it was then when his powers came to life....

maybe thats why he looks weak...

remember brans abilitiy triggered after he lost legs

aryas abilities triggered after she lost her eyes

maybe just maybe stannis has this teke ability that caused him his health a bit. 

 

but anyway i dont believe stannis will become a white walker or an wight not unless he is a warg or greenseer.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Exactly my point. There is no reason to think that just because Sam believes there are wights and walkers killing watchmen in the rear that it is actually happening. The walkers don't have any reason to think there is are any obsidian weapons until the encounter with Sam, which was long after they lost contact with the retreating column.

I don't know what Marvel does with its villains, but the walkers in this story are not cowards. They didn't hide from Waymar; there is no reason to hide from Sam -- not after he slew the walker, and certainly not before. So the most logical conclusion is that it was a lone walker, ergo it could not have reanimated Small Paul. Perhaps another walker happened by, but that is all speculation.

The facts we have are these: wights are seen in singles, small groups and en masse, but so far not with any walkers present. Wights have also arisen from corpses in a very short time (Thistle), but again, no walkers present. Contrast that with the fact that they both have blue eyes and it gets very cold when both are present. So at this point, it's a toss-up.

And yes, I am playing devil's advocate here because it would make more sense for the story for the two to be working together. But we also don't know the whole story yet, and it could very well be that the walkers are fleeing the real terror of the north, which is actually responsible for animating the wights -- it might even be Bloodraven. And it wouldn't be the first time that GR has strung us along for several novels having us believe one thing and the springing the reveal later (the Arryn murder, the Bran attempt, the Westerling conspiracy). If everything just happens exactly the way you expect, well that makes for a pretty boring story.

My bone of contention is the way some people (not you) cop a snotty, dismissive attitude whenever an new idea is presented, arguing that it could not possibly be true because it doesn't "fit the narrative" or "fulfill the story arc properly" or some such other nonsense. And then they try to cover themselves without outright falsehoods like the wights and walkers were together in the prologue, when it fact they were separated by several hours, or that walkers were seen attacking the first when no such account exists anywhere in the text. If people want to limit themselves to their own one-dimensional thinking, that's fine, and by all means express you views on the board, but they should try doing it with a civil attitude.

 

In your part where you say "the facts we have are these". Could you possibly rephrase that bit because the facts we actually have are these-:

Wight, taken from the old school word Wiht which was used to describe a creature or thing, is a term that in fantasy novels nowadays, including GRRMS, is applied to not just reanimated humans but creatures and animals etc. 

So, when we see the WW riding a dead, reanimated horse, a Wight. We do see Walkers present. The WW/Other, whatever you want to call it is actually riding, and guiding this Wight. 

So you could change that part so as not to mislead anybody in the thread with a false fact.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

In your part where you say "the facts we have are these". Could you possibly rephrase that bit because the facts we actually have are these-:

Wight, taken from the old school word Wiht which was used to describe a creature or thing, is a term that in fantasy novels nowadays, including GRRMS, is applied to not just reanimated humans but creatures and animals etc. 

So, when we see the WW riding a dead, reanimated horse, a Wight. We do see Walkers present. The WW/Other, whatever you want to call it is actually riding, and guiding this Wight. 

So you could change that part so as not to mislead anybody in the thread with a false fact.

Sorry, no. Just because a walker can ride a dead horse does not mean they are the ones reanimating them. Just as a Dornishman riding a live one doesn't mean they are animating it.

And the corollary to that is: just because human wights are dead and horse wights are dead does not mean the walkers and wights are allies. Just like even though Dornish are alive and ride living horses and Reachmen are alive and ride living horses doesn't mean they are allies.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, no. Just because a walker can ride a dead horse does not mean they are the ones reanimating them. Just as a Dornishman riding a live one doesn't mean they are animating it.

And the corollary to that is: just because human wights are dead and horse wights are dead does not mean the walkers and wights are allies. Just like even though Dornish are alive and ride living horses and Reachmen are alive and ride living horses doesn't mean they are allies.

Look, this is what you said- 'the FACTS we have are these, Wights are seen in singles, small groups and en masse, but so far NOT with any walkers present'.

So I'm sorry, but no. That is not a fact. It is a misleading lie if I'm perfectly honest and one you should rephrase. I am not saying this is proof the WW animated the dead horse Wight but it bolsters my point that they are together and the WW is in control of the dead Wight, so therefore chances they are animating the wights is more likely when we look at it from this angle.

If I'm honest, your 'fact' seemed to be your strong point against the WW animating these Wights and now it's proven to be not fact but indeed false you may well be left with only your own point of view , which you are perfectly entitled to of course but don't parade false facts around to strengthen your ideas because we all read the books and the facts never lie. 

I'll repeat, I'm not saying it's confirmed the WW animated the dead horse but they are in the same place and the WW is in control of the Wight, which you claimed has never happened.

Also, you are claiming the WW could be fleeing the power that's controlling the Wights? If that's the case then it's an awesome trick to flee the power on an actual Wight the power is controlling. Just a thought there.

[Free Northman Reborn]

My current view is that the Others are related to dead greenseers. Probably those who resided in weirwoods that were cut down by the First Men and the Andals. The spirits of these greenseers were released into the "cold" that both Varamyr and Jon experienced when they  reached the point of death, and became twisted with a desire for vengeance. Once they gained a critical mass of power, they were able to manifest in some way again in the far North, possibly by inhabiting the bodies of children sacrificed to Heart Trees in the far North, such as Crasters sons.

This blood magic allowed them to manifest as the Others. And their twisted greenseer powers now allowed them to warg into the bodies of dead creatures, just like Bloodraven was able to do with Coldhands.

In some way, the sacrifice of a thousand Children of the Forest to power the spell behind the Hammer of the Waters might also play into their origin.

[Clegane'sPup]

I was looking for something pertaining to the bastard/pink letter and I came upon an interesting conversation between Jon & Tormund as the wildings are being brought through CB’s gate.  I look at Tormund as the uncle that comes to visit and tells exaggerated tales but here he seems serious. He wants to get on the south side of the wall and has agreed to Jon’s terms.

The conversation takes place in DwD Jon XII

"Tormund," Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, "tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others."

The wildling rubbed his mouth. "Not here," he mumbled, "not this side o' your Wall." The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. "They're never far, you know. They won't come out by day, not when that old sun's shining, but don't think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don't see them, but they're always clinging to your heels."

"Did they trouble you on your way south?"

 

"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we'd ring our camps with fire. They don't like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it's bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. 'Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …' Tormund turned his face away.

"I know," said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

"You are not wrong," Jon said. "I do not know. And if the gods are good, I never will."

"The gods are seldom good, Jon Snow." Tormund nodded toward the sky. "The clouds roll in. Already it grows darker, colder. Your Wall no longer weeps. Look." He turned and called out to his son Toregg. "Ride back to the camp and get them moving. The sick ones and the weak ones, the slugabeds and cravens, get them on their bloody feet. Set their bloody tents afire if you must. The gate must close at nightfall. Any man not through the Wall by then had best pray the Others get to him afore I do. You hear?"

 

So I went back and re-read the GoT prologue battle between Waymar & the Other. It would take up to much space to repeat the entire scene. Will, high up in the tree could see what was happening before Waymar knew what was happening. Maybe Tormund knew what he was talking about.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. The pale sword came shivering through the air.

 

Just thought it was interesting that Torumd talked about when the dead come walking and their masters. The prologue reminded me that Will said its eyes, blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

Then there is that thing in GoT Jon VII where the NW finds two of Benjen’s men who later cause chaos in CB.

"This … this is all wrong," Sam Tarly said earnestly. "The blood … there's bloodstains on their clothes, and … and their flesh, dry and hard, but … there's none on the ground, or … anywhere. With those … those … those …" Sam made himself swallow, took a deep breath. "With those wounds … terrible wounds … there should be blood all over. Shouldn't there?"

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. "Might be they didn't die here. Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore."

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

 

I am so looking forward to the next installment.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Look, this is what you said- 'the FACTS we have are these, Wights are seen in singles, small groups and en masse, but so far NOT with any walkers present'.

So I'm sorry, but no. That is not a fact. It is a misleading lie if I'm perfectly honest and one you should rephrase. I am not saying this is proof the WW animated the dead horse Wight but it bolsters my point that they are together and the WW is in control of the dead Wight, so therefore chances they are animating the wights is more likely when we look at it from this angle.

If I'm honest, your 'fact' seemed to be your strong point against the WW animating these Wights and now it's proven to be not fact but indeed false you may well be left with only your own point of view , which you are perfectly entitled to of course but don't parade false facts around to strengthen your ideas because we all read the books and the facts never lie. 

I'll repeat, I'm not saying it's confirmed the WW animated the dead horse but they are in the same place and the WW is in control of the Wight, which you claimed has never happened.

Also, you are claiming the WW could be fleeing the power that's controlling the Wights? If that's the case then it's an awesome trick to flee the power on an actual Wight the power is controlling. Just a thought there.

Yes, it is a fact that the walker appears on a dead horse. I'm not saying the walkers cannot exist in the same space as wights.

What I'm arguing is that just because the walkers and wights are similar, and that they both prey on the living doesn't mean they are in league with each other or that the walkers are creating the wights.

As any researcher and analyst knows, correlation does not equal causation. You can have a study that says people who eat mangos live longer that people who don't, but you can't conclude just from that that eating mangos will make you live longer. There could be all sorts of reasons unrelated to mangos that mango-eaters live longer.

So before we start pursuing theories that have the walkers controlling the wights, it's worth it to question our initial assumption: are the walkers actually controlling the wights? Or could it be somebody else?

 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, it is a fact that the walker appears on a dead horse. I'm not saying the walkers cannot exist in the same space as wights.

What I'm arguing is that just because the walkers and wights are similar, and that they both prey on the living doesn't mean they are in league with each other or that the walkers are creating the wights.

As any researcher and analyst knows, correlation does not equal causation. You can have a study that says people who eat mangos live longer that people who don't, but you can't conclude just from that that eating mangos will make you live longer. There could be all sorts of reasons unrelated to mangos that mango-eaters live longer.

So before we start pursuing theories that have the walkers controlling the wights, it's worth it to question our initial assumption: are the walkers actually controlling the wights? Or could it be somebody else?

 

Well, actually you were stating, as fact, that we haven't seen any Walkers and Wights together in the same space, but now it's been pointed out there has I'm glad you have taken that on board.

Its a clear example of a WW in control of a  Wight. Guiding it's every move and mastering it's steps to how the WW sees fit. 

And yeah I get what your saying etc. etc., and I get that these books can make you believe something but then surprise you etc. etc. but me personally I'm going by what text I have seen that backs up the W/W are animating the Wights and mastering them. It's been said by many, including Wildlings, so it's what I'm going with. 

The only way I can see it being different is that if the Others themselves are a different race from the WW(as in the Walkers we've read about so far are not the Others), and it's the Others who are sending the WW and animating Wights from their strong hold way North, is this what you are driving at?

But, that begins a whole different debate which has been covered on the forums. Are the WW and the Others different beings? I don't 100% know. Could be, but it's something only the next books will confirm. 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I was looking for something pertaining to the bastard/pink letter and I came upon an interesting conversation between Jon & Tormund as the wildings are being brought through CB’s gate.  I look at Tormund as the uncle that comes to visit and tells exaggerated tales but here he seems serious. He wants to get on the south side of the wall and has agreed to Jon’s terms.

 

The conversation takes place in DwD Jon XII

 

"Tormund," Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, "tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others."

 

The wildling rubbed his mouth. "Not here," he mumbled, "not this side o' your Wall." The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. "They're never far, you know. They won't come out by day, not when that old sun's shining, but don't think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don't see them, but they're always clinging to your heels."

 

"Did they trouble you on your way south?"

 

 

 

"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we'd ring our camps with fire. They don't like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it's bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. 'Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …' Tormund turned his face away.

 

"I know," said Jon Snow.

 

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

 

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

 

"You are not wrong," Jon said. "I do not know. And if the gods are good, I never will."

 

"The gods are seldom good, Jon Snow." Tormund nodded toward the sky. "The clouds roll in. Already it grows darker, colder. Your Wall no longer weeps. Look." He turned and called out to his son Toregg. "Ride back to the camp and get them moving. The sick ones and the weak ones, the slugabeds and cravens, get them on their bloody feet. Set their bloody tents afire if you must. The gate must close at nightfall. Any man not through the Wall by then had best pray the Others get to him afore I do. You hear?"

 

 

 

So I went back and re-read the GoT prologue battle between Waymar & the Other. It would take up to much space to repeat the entire scene. Will, high up in the tree could see what was happening before Waymar knew what was happening. Maybe Tormund knew what he was talking about.

 

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. The pale sword came shivering through the air.

 

 

 

Just thought it was interesting that Torumd talked about when the dead come walking and their masters. The prologue reminded me that Will said its eyes, blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

 

Then there is that thing in GoT Jon VII where the NW finds two of Benjen’s men who later cause chaos in CB.

 

"This … this is all wrong," Sam Tarly said earnestly. "The blood … there's bloodstains on their clothes, and … and their flesh, dry and hard, but … there's none on the ground, or … anywhere. With those … those … those …" Sam made himself swallow, took a deep breath. "With those wounds … terrible wounds … there should be blood all over. Shouldn't there?"

 

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. "Might be they didn't die here. Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore."

 

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

 

 

 

I am so looking forward to the next installment.

 

I always took Tormunds comments in that passage seriously also. It doesn't seem he is Jesting with young Jon or trying to scare him. Tormund is being as serious as we've seen him. 

The WW/Others or whatever will no longer be hiding in the shadows it seems now that the long summer is at an end and Winter is coming truly, I think WoW will show us a good deal more of them out in the open and that will make for great reading. And we will hopefully learn more of them to.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Clegane'sPup 

I'm glad you left the Tormund passage there actually. In regards to the thread here it's a good reference point. Tormund has described first hand from experience that on his Journey south the WW(who he believes are the Others) were hiding in the shadows, screening his hosts movements, and picking off stragglers and reanimating them as Wights. This is from Tormumds mouth, in all seriousness as well.

He even tells of Torwynd being taken by the cold, but rising as a Wight in ADWD Jon XI, it is the chapter before the passage you quoted but it's talking of the same journey south. So whether the Wildlings were being killed in the rear by stalking WW or dying of the cold, they were being animated as Wights all the same with WW nearby but hiding in the shadows. 

So therefore it's not entirely crazy to think that just because we cannot see the WW, because we know they hide at times, they could well be the beings animating these Wights like what Tormund is explaining.

Why the WW hide interests me. It could be both a combination of it being warmer, daytime, and also their fear of weapons such as Dragonglass/Obsidian or actual Valyrian steel/Dragonsteel. 

We see in the  AGOT prologue the WW laugh and mock after surveying Royce's blade and finding out it, or he can do no harm. 

So due to the wariness/caution/fear of the WW, we see them animate Wights and send them mostly to do their bidding. 

@John Suburbs Could you possibly get on board with the notion you haven't saw much of them due to their caution? Hiding in the shadows etc? 

[Clegane'sPup]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I always took Tormunds comments in that passage seriously also. It doesn't seem he is Jesting with young Jon or trying to scare him. Tormund is being as serious as we've seen him. 

The WW/Others or whatever will no longer be hiding in the shadows it seems now that the long summer is at an end and Winter is coming truly, I think WoW will show us a good deal more of them out in the open and that will make for great reading. And we will hopefully learn more of them to.

In order for me to keep some kind of grasp on the subject I tend to think the cold that accompanies the Other’s is what transforms the dead (human or animal) into a wight and that white walker is a synonym for Other.

The wights and the Other’s seem to start to appear once it starts getting dark. Why I don’t know. I don’t think it is as much as the Other’s hide but more like they shun the daylight/sunlight. Plus their armor seems to reflect their surroundings.

Two things I know are that fire kills a wight and dragonglass/frozen fire/obsidian kills an Other.

Bran in a comma saw something in the “heart of winter” that scared him enough to wake him from the comma. If there is a “Great Other” in the ‘Land of Always Winter” I don’t know.  But, The Other’s are on the move,the wildlings are fleeing what Tormund refers to as the dead walking and their masters.

A few tricksy things:

I don’t remember the time of day or the temperature when Othor & Flowers with their blue eyes were found.

Thistle seems to have turned almost immediately.

Coldhands outside of the cave sensed they (whoever they are) were there and the wights seemed to come out from the snow. He also said Bran & companions needed to get into the cave before dark.

The “Long Night” could refer to 24 hours of darkness or could be some sort of reference to the north & south poles of earth experiencing months of darkness.  Either way the Other’s & the wights would rule supreme. It would take a lot of fire and a lot of dragonglass to defend against them.

Supposedly the huge ice Wall will stop them, but the people who have any inkling of the danger are indisposed. LC Snow has been stabbed and presumed dead, Stannis is snowbound in a crofter village, the Mance seems to be a captive at WF and Sam is in Oldtown. Mel don’t count.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

The blue eyes seem to suggest a magical component controlling them I'll agree with you and say IF you can take out that "power" source (that's old old old magic) it would be possible for the wights to drop 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Well, actually you were stating, as fact, that we haven't seen any Walkers and Wights together in the same space, but now it's been pointed out there has I'm glad you have taken that on board.

Its a clear example of a WW in control of a  Wight. Guiding it's every move and mastering it's steps to how the WW sees fit. 

And yeah I get what your saying etc. etc., and I get that these books can make you believe something but then surprise you etc. etc. but me personally I'm going by what text I have seen that backs up the W/W are animating the Wights and mastering them. It's been said by many, including Wildlings, so it's what I'm going with. 

The only way I can see it being different is that if the Others themselves are a different race from the WW(as in the Walkers we've read about so far are not the Others), and it's the Others who are sending the WW and animating Wights from their strong hold way North, is this what you are driving at?

But, that begins a whole different debate which has been covered on the forums. Are the WW and the Others different beings? I don't 100% know. Could be, but it's something only the next books will confirm. 

But still, you can't say that a walker "mastering" a dead horse is any different from a northman "mastering" a live one. The walker rides up on the horse, dismounts and draws his sword. There is no evidence of mind control or wight-warging or whatever you want to call it, and there is certainly no evidence, none, that the walkers are doing this with human wights. There is also no evidence to suggest that a living person could not mount a dead horse as well and "master" it just as easily as the walker did.

And honestly, since we began this discussion, I am becoming more and more convinced that the wights and walkers are not in league. I think it is entirely possible that Tormund makes the same mistake that everyone else does: the walkers and the wights show up at the same time, so he assumes they are together. But as of yet we have no verification from him or anyone else that the walkers are raising the dead or controlling them in any way.

The hard evidence is at the fist and with Thistle, and Royce for that matter. Surely, a major assault on the Nights Watch requiring control of hundreds of wights would require the presence of at least one walker, and the walkers would be first up the hill because they can glide on top of the snow and cut down mortal men like so much swiss cheese. Thistle goes from dead body to wight in a matter of minutes, but no walkers are seen, not even by Varamyr who has just warged into the forest itself and can even see the worms under the ground. And if the walkers reanimated Royce, how is it that he remained a corpse "while the moon crept slowly across the black sky" and only rose hours later when Will climbed down to have a look?

Every time there are wights about, there are no walkers anywhere in site. By now, you'd think someone would have seen at least one, no?

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Clegane'sPup 

@John Suburbs Could you possibly get on board with the notion you haven't saw much of them due to their caution? Hiding in the shadows etc? 

Why would they need to be cautious? They're near invincible unless you have dragonglass. Of course a few of them are not going to openly attack an entire host of wildlings, but if they have all these wights under their control, why not just send them to dispose of Royce, Sam, Grell, SP or anyone else they find in small numbers. Why bother doing anything at all when they can just get their mindless zombie slaves to do it?