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Targaryen (Valyrian) madness: magical or genetic?


FrostyDornishman

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10 hours ago, The Hoare said:

But the King Jaehaeries himself told Ser Barristan about the Targaryen madness:

 

Seens that the Targaryens have a predisposition to madness and the inbreeding only makes it more perceptible.

 

And what about King Jahaerys ..was he great or mad. .or is he not Targ at all

 

On 4/22/2016 at 7:10 AM, Cowboy Dan said:

Not at all, I said they were crazy because they were unable to separate prophetic dreams from reality. If Sansa or Arya woke up from their wolf dreams believing they were actually wolves, started running around on all fours and howling then yes, I would call them crazy too.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my clarification but I don't think all Targs/Valyrians are crazy, only that due to Daenys there is a far higher chance than was normal pre-Doom.

Please do give give how many targs can't separate dream from reality... Last I checked dany was completely capable of differentiate what is dream and reality ..

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1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Its neitger magical nor genetical... Its just a myth which keeps getting overblown by the fandom mainly by the haters and detractors of dany and targs ..

I can count Aerys , Aerion bright flame and Aemond and maegor...other than these can you name anyone who has been mad or cruel ..even if you add some more like baelor and aegon 4 ...i bet you can name 10 guys in total...

But what about the remaining hundreds of Targs who were completely normal ..

For example , let's take this quote from Jahaerys which was given to barristan which is used by the fandom to use it for the madness in targs 

" Gods flip the coin whenever a Targ is born and it falls either on greatness or madness " 

Was jahaerys great or mad ..neither he was just a simple and normal guy. ..why no lme speaks about all the female targs whobhave been completely normal ..

So that quote itself is an over exaggeration when it was given by a guy who is neither great nor mad..

As I said Targ madness is just over exaggerated and it only exists because George wanted a reason. To overthrow targs and have dany in exile 

I don't know. Look at the children of Aerys. Two died after their birth, one was stillborn, two are mad and one is officially a rapist.

 

Doesn't sound like the best bunch of people. 

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30 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

He ruled for only three years, so we don't know much about him, but during his rule the Blackfyre pretenders dissapeared.

So? Was that supposed to mean something ..

Are we trying to say that one is great or mad based on how long they reigned..he was completely normal ordinary person who ruled... there are other targs who are very similar to him which makes the whole quote irrelevant and exaggerated..

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I said a lot of things here, mostly from a Devil's Advocate position. Was just trying to provide another voice for the minority opposition. We don't know enough of different Targs to really say one way or the other if I'm being truthful about my position. That said, I'm much more willing to cop to one of the explanations provided that it's simply due to stressors or the point made that it didn't begin until Aegon V's generation. There's also the fact that insanity was a thing that did occur in historical royal families (not in the same way but it's fantasy, there's room for creative liberties).

Just saying "George wanted it to be so, so it is," seems both A: really dismissive and B: counter-productive to the point of posting on a forum designed around discussing a book series. If that's how you care to see it that's cool dude, you do you, but don't try to force me to believe that because I'm here to look for deeper meaning and symbolism in the text

The thing iam against is bringing every targ under the tag of madness when its a completely human thing for a person to do..Things like acting on impulse .,being ruthless are attributed as madneds but not for other families..

 

For example. If Brandon Stark was Target he would have been called as Mad for acting impulsively ..

If the stark who burned all their fleet after his father's death was target then he would also have been called as mad ...

I don't see anyone going on about Tywin the cruel or anyone call him mad..

I could go on but you get the idea..

 

7 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

I don't know. Look at the children of Aerys. Two died after their birth, one was stillborn, two are mad and one is officially a rapist.

 

Doesn't sound like the best bunch of people. 

Lol  OK 

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  • 1 month later...
On 16.01.2017 at 8:43 PM, Masha said:

So we have a pure Targ Daeron II (pretty nice guy as we all agree), he married a 100% unrelated bride - Dornish Princess of Rhaenar bloodline. He had 4 children - all sane ones. One was into mystical and another was weak-willed, but not mad and insane.

No-no-no. Rhaegel was certainly mad and weak-minded. Aerys was described as a clever man, but... All this his extreme obsession with reading books (he even forgot to sleep and change his clothes!), absenteeism and disposition to avoid other people, very few close companions (did he have any friends except Brynden at all?) resembles autism, honestly. It may be not it, of course, but such behavior is not normal. His father, unkle and aunt, septon Barth, Rodrik Harlaw and Tyrion were/are also very learned and bookish people, but all lived active life, did their duties and had other interests. He did not.

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I don't think Aerys I's behaviour shows real signs of any mental illness. Most of the bad things we've heard of him are said by the same people who blame him for the drought. And the Blackfyres surely were interested in portraying him as a weak-minded feeble king in the hands of the unpopular kinslayer Bloodraven.

But the actual facts we know about him is that he is interesting in books, and uninterested in ruling and getting her cousin/wife pregnant. We also know that while he had to rule in very difficult times (Blackfyre uprisings, Dalton's raids, drought,...), he leave the governance in the hands of capable people. And we know that he wasn't anyone's puppet because he took decisions against his Hand and council's opinion such as sending Bittersteel to the Wall instead of beheading him, or not setting his wife apart.

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think Aerys I's behaviour shows real signs of any mental illness. Most of the bad things we've heard of him are said by the same people who blame him for the drought. And the Blackfyres surely were interested in portraying him as a weak-minded feeble king in the hands of the unpopular kinslayer Bloodraven.

But the actual facts we know about him is that he is interesting in books, and uninterested in ruling and getting her cousin/wife pregnant. We also know that while he had to rule in very difficult times (Blackfyre uprisings, Dalton's raids, drought,...), he leave the governance in the hands of capable people. And we know that he wasn't anyone's puppet because he took decisions against his Hand and council's opinion such as sending Bittersteel to the Wall instead of beheading him, or not setting his wife apart.

Exactly. Aerys I is right now a complete mystery as a person because we only got 'detailed descriptions' of his personality and character come from people who were neither close to him nor well inclined to him or his government. How disinterested he actually is in stuff that's happening around him remains to be seen, nor do we have a very good picture how irrelevant the scholarly work he is doing is on the grand scale of things.

Egg already indicated that Aerys I might have been the one who rediscovered the prophecy about the promised prince (he says, he found a prophecy foretelling the return of the dragons). It is a pity that Egg has yet to talk to Dunk about his royal uncle - if he ever spend some time with him back in childhood he could give us a much better picture of the man. One expects that Egg is going to do in a story in which they are actually visiting court. 

Aerys I certainly is the character I'm looking forward the most to see in future Dunk & Egg stories. And I really think it is a pity that Dunk never met Daeron II.

And the fact that he was able to shut down the talk about him taking another wife or that he opposed both Bloodraven and Aerion over the fate of Bittersteel in 219 AC strongly suggests the man was able to get what he wanted.

Even in TMK there is a hint that Bloodraven had no authority to rule on the fate of any captured Blackfyres.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Exactly. Aerys I is right now a complete mystery as a person because we only got 'detailed descriptions' of his personality and character come from people who were neither close to him nor well inclined to him or his government. How disinterested he actually is in stuff that's happening around him remains to be seen, nor do we have a very Aerys I certainly is the character I'm looking forward the most to see in future Dunk & Egg stories. And I really think it is a pity that Dunk never met Daeron II.

Yeah.( It was the biggest Targ family ever and I'd like to get a full image of it. There already was some tension between Baelor and Maekar before Ashford, it's obvoius, but without knowing their father's role it's difficult to understand their relations with each other properly. We have practically no info about their childhood and upbringing, and that's... a real pity. 

I think if Dunk had been represented to the King after meeting Baelor and Maekar, he would have been a bit... surprised.) Though it seems that Baelor actually resembled his father in character and even facial expression.

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  I believe, "Targaryen Madness" is result of inbreeding. Low fertility, reduced sperm count, higher infant mortality, increased genetic disorders are well known results of inbreeding. House Targaryen contains lots of miscarriages, still-born and genetically deformed babies, specially in Rhaella's case, who had 3 miscarriages, 2 stillbirths, and 4 babies who died shortly after their birth. Daenerys and Rhaenyra gave birth to still-born deformed babies and a milder case was, Rhaenyra's half-brother who had 12 toes and 11 fingers.

 In middle ages nobody knew about mental disorders like, schizophrenia, ADHD, autism, bipolar disorders, BPD and depression and simply labeled them as madness. Genetic factors also play important role in mental disorders as they have real life examples. Royal intermarriage was common thing in real history and there are so many royals who were known as mad. They simply didn't label types of mental disorders like ancient civilizations did. There's even a wikipedia page about "mad" royals, and  what type of mental disorders they had.

  Even J. K. Rowling, included examples of insanity in Harry Potter series, for example Black and Gaunt families, who were known for purest blood wizards, practiced incest to keep their bloodlines pure thus, suffered similar results as Targaryens due to it.

  Maybe it's mundane, like I explained above or it's magical due to Dragons extinction, but "madness" as a result of inbreeding is a very common trope and genetic disorders due to inbreeding, includes some mental disorders too.

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On 1/17/2017 at 9:25 AM, The Hoare said:

He ruled for only three years, so we don't know much about him, but during his rule the Blackfyre pretenders dissapeared.

He was not either. He was obviously obsessed with the prophecy, just like Rhaegar, enough to force his children to marry each other when both didn't want to. 

He was described as a weak sickly man, as proven by his death but other than that there is no real comments about his character other than stubbornness.

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