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Targaryen (Valyrian) madness: magical or genetic?


FrostyDornishman

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Do you think Targaryen madness is supposed to be a purely genetic thing, developed after generations of very heavy inbreeding?  I can't remember now if the Targaryens did that to "keep the bloodline pure" as the last of the dragonlords, or because everyone in Valyria was going family style.

Or, does the madness have something to do with the magic in your veins?  Magic blood seems to give some Targs prophetic visions, which sometimes test their sanity (think Aerion Brightflame and Dany in Dance).  But non-Targ characters that do magical stuff and have visions don't seem to be suffering the same way.  If magical blood makes madness more likely, do you think it's possible it happened more often among all ethnic Valyrians?

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it is a lack of coping skills.

sounds funny, but it is my truth.

it seems as though recent evidence (Areys, Visy, and Danny) have all suffered some trauma that has caused their, "break".

The Mad King was pretty legit until Duskendale (then add in your heir trying to usurp you), Visy had no chance being referred to as the "Beggar King" since he can remember, and Danny is just Danny, a car wreck that we are all in the process of watching...

you could attribute her "break" to Khal, I contend, or when she realized she was a pawn in a much, much bigger game.

the one who drank the wildfire? insane, we all have 1 or 2 of them in big families.

the one who made wooden dragons? just a little sad and delusional trying to recreate a long lost mystique.

the way i see it? tearing apart a realm and causing the deaths of countless common folk over some girl who does not even want you is a MILLION times more "insane" than anything the recent "crazy" Targs have done...

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Genetic. Several generations of inbreeding will do that to any family, Targ or not.

Few months ago I read of a small community (IIRC 20-30 members) who lived in an isolated and hardly approachable area somewhere and didn't mingle with people from neighboring towns and villages at all. They married only each other for century - century and a half and results were pretty predictable: many members had under-average intelligence, were afflicted with diseases they weren't be able to interhit immunity to, and similar stuff.

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I think it's just the inbreeding that leads some of the Targs having loose screws. One of the risks of trying to keep the bloodlines pure. Just as you said other families have magical stuff going on and they don't have the same rate of crazy that the Targs have. So it's probably not the magic causing the problem. Was Aerion have visions too? I thought it was Daeron the Drunk and he didn't seem to have any issues except for drunkenness. Also I wouldn't say that Dany's visions is what tested her sanity. You have to remember she was hungry, dehydrated, and was really sick in Dance. I would say that was her issue, not the visions. Also the Targ (Daenys maybe?) who had the vision of the Doom doesn't seem to be crazy, at least there's no hint of that. So I think the mental instability of a lot of Targs has to do with the incest, not the magical blood (if they do actually have magical blood).

If the Targs do have magical blood, it seems to manifest negatively in the physical aspects not the mental ones. The fact that we have many instances of Targs have twisted, winged, reptile like babies. Like little dragon-human hybrids that seems to get glossed over, which I've always found interesting that no one seems to care about. It seems like its common knowledge that people know about these weird looking babies, but no one in-story asked asked a question. Like these babies were just normal occurrences. Deformed, underdeveloped, stillborn babies is one thing. But no one seems to blink an eye at these reptilian creatures that seem to pop out every now & then..

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I believe that the madness was the price they had to pay for the centuries of intermarriage, just like what has happened in real world.

obvious mental disabilities and deformations? yes.

Tyrion would be a good example of "real world" inbreeding, for example.

event triggered-insanity? do not buy it.

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I think it is the result of living with prophecy- the Targaryens have been skidding along a course marked out for them since before they left Valyria. From Daenys to Danaerys I think they have been tormented by visions of the future until the weaker reeds simply snap and go mad- or perhaps simply appear mad as their actions become increasingly inexplicable to those not afflicted with the "gift" of prophecy?

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12 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

event triggered-insanity? do not buy it.

I don't believe that it was triggered, like it wasn't the result of one bad event, it was always there but in a different way; it took the *paranoia* form after something that happened, like in real world.

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I think the specific Targaryen madness revolving around dragons (dragon dreams, obsession with bringing back dragons, transforming into dragons, liking fire, etc.) is actually a result of the lack of the dragons.

The Targaryens have 'magical blood' which enabled to form magical bonds with dragons. What if this isn't only an optional ability but actually a deeply-seated magical urge they have to fulfill or risk severe mental problems?

The dragonriding Targaryens seem to be much more stable than the likes of Baelor, Rhaegel, Daeron, Aerion, or Aerys II.

My idea is that the dragons might have helped them to make them stable because they were 'whole' when bonding to a dragon.

This could also have physical aspect as well - we know that Aenys I's health suddenly improved after he bonded with his hatchling Quicksilver at the age of three.

The incest could contribute to the many malformed Targaryens and the stillbirths and so on because it actually makes 'the blood of the dragon' purer than it has to be (i.e. bringing forth the 'dragon genes' to much).

But biologically incest doesn't cause madness or anything, really. It just increases the risk of certain genetic deceases if you already carry those genes. If your genes are perfectly fine then you could practice incest all day long and have a lower risk of conceiving sick children than non-related couples.

Considering that the Targaryens certainly have twisted genes there is a good chance that the incest makes some things worse for them but it clearly also has its benefits - preserving the dragon-bonding ability as well as (in Daenerys!) the ability to magically hatch petrified dragon eggs.

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I would say both, + the effects of being a royal.  Having huge narcissism and delusions of grandeur can make a person seem insane.  Having prophetic dreams will have that effect as well.  I agree with Lord Varys that a lack of dragons is responsible for a lot of it.  Aegon the conquerors son was considered a weakling until he bonded with Balerion.

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23 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I would say both, + the effects of being a royal.  Having huge narcissism and delusions of grandeur can make a person seem insane.  Having prophetic dreams will have that effect as well.  I agree with Lord Varys that a lack of dragons is responsible for a lot of it.  Aegon the conquerors son was considered a weakling until he bonded with Balerion.

I'd say Joff (and to a much lesser degree even Robert) is a pretty good example for the effect a crown can have on your character (or the expectancy of wearing a crown one day).

In Joffrey it is the feeling that he can do whatever the hell he wants that motivates him to actually (try to) do whatever the hell he wants. He just fulfills fantasies many of us (may) have.

In Robert's case it is more subtle but it also clear that he has grown accustomed to getting whatever the hell he wants, and is reacting very pissed if anybody tries to remember him that he once was just a normal guy.

The prospect of a crown also brings forth the worst in Stannis and Renly. Even Robb isn't immune to that. His crown made him less approachable and very unwilling to listen to advice he didn't want to hear.

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I think Targ madness is first and foremost: propaganda.

There is a reason that of all the crazy, terrible Targs out there Aerys got the dub "The Mad King" it was the platform to oust the Targs IMO not an actual illness...(i.e. Vis/Dany does not suffer from Targ madness because there is no such thing). 

What a cover-all term too, if any Targaeryen shows any deviating behavior chalk it up to "Targ madness"....Is Ramsay, Joffery, Roose, Cersei, Euron, Tarly, Rorge, Biter, etc any more crazy than the Targs? Madness is madness the Baratheon regime threw Targaeryen in front of the word so nobody would question Robert.

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As far as modern science is concerned, inbreeding does not produce children with a high predisposition towards mental health issues such as insanity like the Targaryens. 

If you want to argue that Targaryen insanity is the result of their inbreeding, you must also find evidence of that prior to Westeros in Valyria and for other Valyrian families to exhibit the same traits since the Valyrians as a whole had the same practice.

I actually did an analysis of this in one of my threads that makes far more sense. I think it has to do more with the lead of the plumbing in the Red Keep.

And as science shows us, lead poisoning does impact mental health and cognitive issues.

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4 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I think Targ madness is first and foremost: propaganda.

There is a reason that of all the crazy, terrible Targs out there Aerys got the dub "The Mad King" it was the platform to oust the Targs IMO not an actual illness...(i.e. Vis/Dany does not suffer from Targ madness because there is no such thing). 

What a cover-all term too, if any Targaeryen shows any deviating behavior chalk it up to "Targ madness"....Is Ramsay, Joffery, Roose, Cersei, Euron, Tarly, Rorge, Biter, etc any more crazy than the Targs? Madness is madness the Baratheon regime threw Targaeryen in front of the word so nobody would question Robert.

Agreed. This is mainly just propaganda purported by the Lanniters/Baratheons in order to besmirch the previous regime. The fact is there will always be people loyal to the previous regime and so governments that oust their predecessors by force always do this sort of thing in order to convince the people that the nation is better off without them because they did 'evil' such and such things.

Just look at what the Flavians did to the Julio Claudian dynasty. Although that family were known for their murderous and power hungry ways that caused problems for the empire, the Flavians when they got into power made them look like evil cartoon characters.

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IICR, there is no direct relation between inbreeding and madness, unless there is madness in the family already. Only the risk of having it increases, which is not the same as saying "inbreeding causes madness". There are more risk of stillbirths and low intelligence, it seems. (this study was made among muslin communities, which are already small, btw).

 

7 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I think Targ madness is first and foremost: propaganda.

There is a reason that of all the crazy, terrible Targs out there Aerys got the dub "The Mad King" it was the platform to oust the Targs IMO not an actual illness...(i.e. Vis/Dany does not suffer from Targ madness because there is no such thing). 

What a cover-all term too, if any Targaeryen shows any deviating behavior chalk it up to "Targ madness"....Is Ramsay, Joffery, Roose, Cersei, Euron, Tarly, Rorge, Biter, etc any more crazy than the Targs? Madness is madness the Baratheon regime threw Targaeryen in front of the word so nobody would question Robert.

Agree. Westerosi people seem to be quite aware that the Targaryens are very eccentric, yet, they just named the 18th King as "The Mad", the one that, coincidently, was removed. And Aerys wasn't the first King who was cruel or had cruel punishments.

 

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I thought I was the only one who didn't belive in Roberts propaganda :D

But there is something wrong them (Dany walking, Fiddler dreaming) even if they don't act like Joff Euron or Ramsay (who have all complete different levels of insanity). So there's defiantly some magical component of visions

As others noted, power makes you mad, so that plus all their magic blood cells, isn't good for anyone

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I don't think Targaryens have any genetic mental illness, and if you think about it carefully not many Targs are by any account and stretch of logic insane.

Mental illness is a tricky question as modern psychiatry has very strict but frequently changing standard of normal and bunch of new disorders declared recently. There is a big argument going in academic circles about all that and it is not that important to do complete overview, previous sentence should suffice.

Comparing everything to our perceived standard of normal in Westeros or even worse in our world, and listing everything slightly varying from it as a mental illness, disorder or insanity (ridiculous notion as most people seem to have no idea what insanity means in either medical or judicial sense) is really, really wrong.

That said, there are both RL medical and "magical" reasons for slightly unusual behavior of some Targs, as for genetics, it can play minor role in making some more susceptible to some disorders and link between magic and genetics is not yet very well explained but genetics or even inbreeding are not major factors. Now I will list some examples, stats and explanations. 

From 143+ live birth Targs and other first generation Targ descendents (bastards and children of Targ daughters married outside family) we can discount around 15 we know died in very young age, which leaves us with 128+ of them. Blackfyres and second generation of Targ brides' ofspring aren't counted and they would only reinforce my point as there are no known crazy ones. TWOIAF loves casual remarks about someone being crazy so it's safe to assume those not mentioned are not, at least not Targs and children of Targ mothers who married into noble families. From all those people only 10 can be reasonably considered as mentally ill, and here they are.

Lets start with Maegor, not a very nice chap, but his behavior started to be unacceptable after he got severe blow to the head, which put him into two week coma, either the blow or questionable (magical?) treatment he received made him unbalanced.

Then we have few Targs that can be argued to be sociopaths, some would even list Maegor among them, but it would be questionable. Daemon is clear example, followed with Aegon IV who is less so but would fit the bill. Then we have Aerion Brightflame. Aerion is nice example because while he is sociopath him drinking wildfire shouldn't be overestimated, since we are talking about fantasy world where dragons indeed existed and he was drunk and certainly someone filled his head with all kind of rumors and tales, while supernatural influence was also possible.

His brother Daeron suffers from visions and severe alcoholism, which caused which is questionable, but I included him as he may have been delusional, although I don't believe it. Him and his brother could be victims of Bloodravens supernatural scheming.

His daughter Vaella was simple-minded and Rhaegel Targaryen, described as mad was probably also just deficient.

Aelora was mad from grief but we don't know how mad and in which way and grief as a mental illness is hotly debated question in modern psychology.

Aerys was certainly paranoid, but he did have external reasons to be so, as this topic explained very well. His cruelty and fascination with fire was likely coping mechanism to battle his ever increasing fantastic fear of everything.

Viserys have seemed to get his illusion of grandeur and he has fewer brakes to his behavior because of it, but it can be disputed, but lets include him too.

So from those 128+ people only 10 can be reasonably considered as mentally ill with 2 being mentally deficient and 3 more being open to disputes. So we have 5 (hell make it 6) Targs which embody what we consider Targ crazy and all of them have clear external reason for their mental problems. Neither of those numbers is that significant having in mind 128+ people that have lived past infancy, so talking about crazy gene is ridiculous.  

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