NFL 2016: Is there a draft in here or is it just me?

[DanteGabriel]

13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm not going to argue the science.

Because then you would have no argument. The balls were at the level one would expect them to be at for those conditions. If one single fucking dipshit employed by the NFL was familiar with the principle that air pressure goes down in the cold, or if the NFL actually gave two tugs of a dead dog's cock about air pressure in footballs aside from an opportunity to hammer the Patriots, none of this would have blown up.

[JonSnow4President]

14 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Maybe he would've gotten a fine had he actually copped to it. I don't think the punishment here is reflective of what he did initially, but how he handled being questioned about it.

I'm not going to argue the science. Air pressure didn't force the deflater into a bathroom with two bags of balls before that game started. Nor did it send texts from Brady's phone to the equipment manager's. Pretty sure it had little or nothing to do with Tommy destroying his phone prior to his interview.

I agree with all the rest. Goodell should not be trusted with this much power. The fact that the players and the union signed off on this CBA is idiotic.

I agree the circumstantial is there (even if some, like deflating 12 balls in a minute is stretched), but if DNA evidence says you weren't the one that raped a girl, you shouldn't be convicted of raping the girl, regardless of how strong the circumstantial evidence seems.  

I just think the NFL botched it so badly, they never should have issued the (draconian) punishments for offenses they've handwaved for other teams with harder evidence (I believe it was the Vikings caught on camera heating up balls on the sidelines.)  

The phone thing also bothers me a lot less, because I would probably melt mine down when I got rid of them if I had Tom Brady's celebrity (I'm just imagining sexts being released between him and Giselle), especially if it's true that they told him phone records would be sufficient.

Like I said, I'm really bothered by the lack of process here.

 

As to Elliot, I'm all for taking him at 4 if the real football evaluators in the war room (aka, not Jerry, maybe Stephen) think he's Adrian Peterson/Lynch/Charles level.  They're a fairly well-rounded team when healthy, with a serious pass rush weakness and a lesser pass coverage weakness, but Elliot gives them a complete offense for what is remaining of Romo's championship window.  I'd rather go down fighting by supporting one of the top QB's in the league right now (only ones I think you can put inarguably ahead of him now are Brady and Brees.  I'd put a few others, but they're closer, and if we move to potential, even more).  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Because then you would have no argument. The balls were at the level one would expect them to be at for those conditions. If one single fucking dipshit employed by the NFL was familiar with the principle that air pressure goes down in the cold, or if the NFL actually gave two tugs of a dead dog's cock about air pressure in footballs aside from an opportunity to hammer the Patriots, none of this would have blown up.

Yes, The NFL totally fucked up the sting. No argument there. That being said, shenanigans had taken place. The science doesn't change any of that shit. 

 If your boy would've taken his medicine when he was first called out, none of this would've blown up.

[DanteGabriel]

6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yes, The NFL totally fucked up the sting. No argument there. That being said shenanigans had been taking place. The science doesn't change any of that shit. 

So you think the Patriots conspired to deflate balls that were not actually deflated?

Don't hide behind some bullshit term like "shenanigans." Tell me what the fuck exactly Tom Brady did. Refuse to admit he told the guys to deflate balls that hadn't been deflated? Hand over his cell phone to Roger "Damaging Leaks Every Day" Goodell after Ted Wells told him they didn't need the phone and agreed Brady had been cooperative about the texts?

ETA: Taken medicine? What medicine? He should have confessed to telling those guys to deflate balls that weren't deflated?

[Trebla]

1 hour ago, briantw said:

If someone trades up to four to try to get Lynch, they're fucking nuts.  He might be available in the second round, and the earliest he might go is around twenty.

Oh I agree but teams DO go stupid for QB's. I don't think either Goff or Wentz are worth what those two teams gave up for them. Someone might think that the Niners are going to take him at 7 and want to jump them. I wouldn't do it but again, I wouldn't be surprised if someone trades up for Lynch. Hell, maybe someone trades up with the Chargers @3. 

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

@Trebla

Zeke at 4 is too high. Your best bet imo is Ramsay at 4, and hoping you can get Derrick Henry at the top of the second (or trade up to grab him at the end of the first). This draft is supposed to be loaded on the d-line, so I wouldn't take Bosa that high. Get a value pick in the third round for DE.

And agreed here as well. I think #4 is too high for a RB. I've heard the same on d-line talent so  I hope they can get a late 1st round talent in the early 2nd. I'm hoping for a RB or WR in the 3rd and 4th. They have 2 4th rounders. 

[JonSnow4President]

Note, when I say I'm all for Elliot at 4, I'm talking about if Ramsey is gone.  Guy's a fantastic propsect by the vast majority of evaluators.  Not a guarantee for success, to be sure, but it's a good sign.  If he's at CB, it's also a premium position.  I just think you're going to get closer to Bosa/Buckner in round 2 than you will get closer to Ramsey, or even an all-around back like Elliot (I don't buy into the "stud RB's are dime a dozen," and this is a team that did a lot better with a stud-role RB than with a rotation). 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Yeah I get that JS4P. I just think Henry fits better with your team. Imagine him behind that line. And when you factor in how Romo and Dez can spread the field, well let's just assume there would be many a DB getting trucked. All. Game. Long.

[JonSnow4President]

Yeah, but I remember seeing a graphic about successful runningbacks over 240 pounds.  I get that something like that should never be the definitive factor on draft evaluation, but I'm wary of faster guys who are slower to get up to speed.  And there isn't a single pro defense like A&M's run defense (that game was awful as an Aggie.  Something like 200 yards for Henry early in the third quarter).

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

So you think the Patriots conspired to deflate balls that were not actually deflated?

Don't hide behind some bullshit term like "shenanigans." Tell me what the fuck exactly Tom Brady did. Refuse to admit he told the guys to deflate balls that hadn't been deflated? Hand over his cell phone to Roger "Damaging Leaks Every Day" Goodell after Ted Wells told him they didn't need the phone and agreed Brady had been cooperative about the texts?

He had the equipment guys letting air out of balls post "ref inspection" since the Jets game that was brought up in the initial texts. I'm not defending the Wells investigation. I'm not defending the sting (as it was flubbed, I was fine with them attempting to catch the Pats with their hand in the cookie jar) I'm not defending the leaks or any of Goodell's bullshit. I'm saying Tommy had these guys letting air out of balls, and he lied when questioned about it. He lied to his employer, he lied to the league, he lied to the fans, etc, etc. And I think he deserves some measure of punishment for it. 

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

He had the equipment guys letting air out of balls post "ref inspection" since the Jets game that was brought up in the initial texts. I'm not defending the Wells investigation. I'm not defending the sting (as it was flubbed, I was fine with them attempting to catch the Pats with their hand in the cookie jar) I'm not defending the leaks or any of Goodell's bullshit. I'm saying Tommy had these guys letting air out of balls, and he lied when questioned about it. He lied to his employer, he lied to the league, he lied to the fans, etc, etc. And I think he deserves some measure of punishment for it. 

My gut tells me that where there's smoke, there's fire and you're probably right.  

But my gut isn't adequate evidence.  That's the problem most people who aren't irrational Pats fans have.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Yeah, but I remember seeing a graphic about successful runningbacks over 240 pounds.  I get that something like that should never be the definitive factor on draft evaluation, but I'm wary of faster guys who are slower to get up to speed.  And there isn't a single pro defense like A&M's run defense (that game was awful as an Aggie.  Something like 200 yards for Henry early in the third quarter).

I actually agree with this, but I think he just fits so well with the Cowboys. Imo there are only a handful of teams he'd be good on, and they're at the top of the list. Zeke would also excel on the Boyz, but I think the value is better if you can get DH in the second or late in the first plus grab a guy like Ramsay. 

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I actually agree with this, but I think he just fits so well with the Cowboys. Imo there are only a handful of teams he'd be good on, and they're at the top of the list. Zeke would also excel on the Boyz, but I think the value is better if you can get DH in the second or late in the first plus grab a guy like Ramsay. 

Given the team's build right now, I think if you go Ramsey in 1, you have to go D-line if there's someone remotely near value there unless a guy like Lynch falls to the start of 2 (at which point, given the value, I think you prepare for the future).  Outside of Elliot at the top and Henry as the top powerback, I don't see just a massive void between RB's through the rest of the draft, so I'd rather just focus on the D-line early and go for a committee approach at RB for this year.

[briantw]

I mean, the Patriots cheat constantly, so they've lost the benefit of the doubt at this point.  How Bill Belichick is still allowed to coach in the NFL after Spygate is just baffling to me.  That should have been a lifetime ban.  Instead, the NFL destroyed the evidence. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

ETA: Taken medicine? What medicine? He should have confessed to telling those guys to deflate balls that weren't deflated?

You're deluding yourself. The measurements don't mean shit, irregardless of the weather conditions. The refs used two different gauges. You have to throw out all the numbers. The fact that they waited until halftime to remeasure was a joke. They should have remeasured right before the start of the game. The whole sting operation was a mess, so I don't really see how the science here helps you or hurts you. 

Yes, Tommy had two schleps deflate balls for him and when he was called out on the carpet, he threw the ham n' eggers under the bus. I think for me that this is the crux of the whole affair for me. It shows a lack of character on his part. 

[DanteGabriel]

26 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

You're deluding yourself. The measurements don't mean shit, irregardless of the weather conditions. The refs used two different gauges. You have to throw out all the numbers. The fact that they waited until halftime to remeasure was a joke. They should have remeasured right before the start of the game. The whole sting operation was a mess, so I don't really see how the science here helps you or hurts you. 

Yes, Tommy had two schleps deflate balls for him and when he was called out on the carpet, he threw the ham n' eggers under the bus. I think for me that this is the crux of the whole affair for me. It shows a lack of character on his part. 

The NFL's incompetence in measuring and guarding those balls should have been the first reason this fucking thing should never have gone beyond pre-emptive whining from the Ravens and Colts. The fact that the ref used two different gauges was a point against the league's credibility in all the hashing out of this case and now you're using it to throw up your hands and say, "Well, who can know what the inflation levels were?" That is an astounding level of mental gymnastics to stick to your surety that Tom Brady is a crook.

The balls were at a measure that was consistent for conditions. The only thing you have from that specific game is McNally taking them into the bathroom for 90 seconds (midseason texts that Brady was angry about the over-inflated balls used in a road game are pretty weak sauce to base this case on, but maybe we should investigate tampering in the Jets organization!). And, gosh, even after the referee saw that McNally disappeared with the balls, he still went ahead and used them. In a game where a crooked league official was taking kicking balls out to sell off himself. Of course, that guy was quietly fired and we never even learned his name, because the NFL needs to blame the Patriots for every fucking thing that they did wrong that night.

The "crux" of the whole affair is that he said he had no idea how the balls that were not deflated could have been deflated. There's never been a smudge of wrongdoing in Brady's career. Not so much as a teabagged athletic trainer to cover up. And yet you'll buy the story sold to you by an incompetent league office that tried to set up a sting on behalf of rival franchises, failed to measure or safeguard the balls properly, and leaked false and damaging info about the investigation, under the direction of professional ass-coverer Roger Goodell, over balls that were actually at scientifically expected inflation levels. Sure, I'm the delusional one.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

13 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

The NFL's incompetence in measuring and guarding those balls should have been the first reason this fucking thing should never have gone beyond pre-emptive whining from the Ravens and Colts. The fact that the ref used two different gauges was a point against the league's credibility in all the hashing out of this case and now you're using it to throw up your hands and say, "Well, who can know what the inflation levels were?" That is an astounding level of mental gymnastics to stick to your surety that Tom Brady is a crook.

The balls were at a measure that was consistent for conditions. The only thing you have from that specific game is McNally taking them into the bathroom for 90 seconds (midseason texts that Brady was angry about the balls used in a road game are pretty weak sauce to . And, gosh, even after the referee saw that McNally disappeared with the balls, he still went ahead and used them. In a game where a crooked league officials was taking kicking balls out to sell off himself. Of course, that guy was quietly fired and we never even learned his name, because the NFL needs to blame the Patriots for every fucking thing that they did wrong that night.

The "crux" of the whole affair is that he said he had no idea how the balls that were not deflated could have been deflated. There's never been a smudge of wrongdoing in Brady's career. Not so much as a teabagged athletic trainer to cover up. And yet you'll buy the story sold to you by an incompetent league office that tried to set up a sting on behalf of rival franchises, failed to measure or safeguard the balls properly, and leaked false and damaging info about the investigation, under the direction of professional ass-coverer Roger Goodell, over balls that were actually at scientifically expected inflation levels. Sure, I'm the delusional one.

Basically what I'm hearing here from you is that is you can't prove it, nothing happened. It's not cheating if you're not caught. I get that in terms of thumbing your nose at Goodell, but yes, I think you're delusional if you're willing to dismiss the rest. 

 I don't see how you can dismiss all the circumstantial evidence here. The texts. The timing of the texts. The bathroom trip. The timing of Brady's phone destruction. The ham n eggers nickname. It's delusional. I'm not buying into any of the league "leaked" bullshit. I'm cherry-picking various pieces of the Wells report (Most of which came off the ham n eggers cellphones) Those did not just involve that Jets game, they started with the Jets game.

 Your boy is a liar who refuses to accept any of the repercussions for his actions. He'd rather throw his flunkies under the bus than admit any guilt. No class. No character. 

 

 

/ And throwing up my hands? The argument is that the refs fucked up the measurements. I agree with that. I'm assuming that you agree with that as well. If those numbers are meaningless, then the whole science argument is moot. You can't use those numbers to prove or disprove anything.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

17 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

(midseason texts that Brady was angry about the over-inflated balls used in a road game are pretty weak sauce to base this case on, but maybe we should investigate tampering in the Jets organization!). And, gosh, even after the referee saw that McNally disappeared with the balls, he still went ahead and used them. In a game where a crooked league official was taking kicking balls out to sell off himself. Of course, that guy was quietly fired and we never even learned his name, because the NFL needs to blame the Patriots for every fucking thing that they did wrong that night.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jets had fucked with those balls. As a matter of fact, I bet that's how Tommy got the idea. The fact that the Home Team's equipment guy takes possession of both teams balls is absolutely ridiculous.

Agree also that the officials should've taken possession of the balls the second they realized that McNally had taken them into the bathroom. I'm not clear on whether or not that is necessarily true though. My understanding is the League office eventually saw that on security camera footage that they had later obtained from the Pats. In any case, if competitive fairness was the concern, the officials should have remeasured the balls right before the start of the game and not waited till halftime. I'm in full agreement with you regarding the sting operation that the league attempted to spring on the Pats at the AFC Championship game. They completely fucked up the measurement of the balls. I agreed with the first judge who threw this case out based on the fact that the measurements were not done properly. I can also understand how this appeals committee repealed the initial judgment based on the current CBA. The whole thing is a clusterfuck on the legal end.

    

[Jace, Extat]

No!

NO!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'd literally prefer that we talk about nothing than talk about this. But waddaya know, I can't resist the siren call of an unread post in the NFL thread.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's not cheating if you're not caught.

 

That is true, though.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Fuck Goodell up the ass with a rusty spiked Billy club. I mean the four games at the beginning of the season isn't that big a deal, at least compared to the lost first round pick, but the overturned suspension was at least a nice stick in Goodell's eye.

the issue isn't just that the NFL can't prove Brady did it, it's that there isn't evidence that 'it' happened at all.

as for NFL leaks, you have Mortensen reporting that "11out of 12" balls were "at least 2 psi under inflated" two days after the story broke, basically setting the tone for the entire discussion despite those numbers turning out to be complete bullshit, and then you have Tom Brady's personal emails something ending up on TMZ and Deadspin. The League was definitely playing dirty.

[DanteGabriel]

54 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Basically what I'm hearing here from you is that is you can't prove it, nothing happened. It's not cheating if you're not caught. I get that in terms of thumbing your nose at Goodell, but yes, I think you're delusional if you're willing to dismiss the rest. 

 I don't see how you can dismiss all the circumstantial evidence here. The texts. The timing of the texts. The bathroom trip. The timing of Brady's phone destruction. The ham n eggers nickname. It's delusional. I'm not buying into any of the league "leaked" bullshit. I'm cherry-picking various pieces of the Wells report (Most of which came off the ham n eggers cellphones) Those did not just involve that Jets game, they started with the Jets game.

 Your boy is a liar who refuses to accept any of the repercussions for his actions. He'd rather throw his flunkies under the bus than admit any guilt. No class. No character. 

/ And throwing up my hands? The argument is that the refs fucked up the measurements. I agree with that. I'm assuming that you agree with that as well. If those numbers are meaningless, then the whole science argument is moot. You can't use those numbers to prove or disprove anything.

What I'm hearing from you is that no one is sure what the pressure was in those balls so we should assume that Brady is a crook. He is, after all, the only one who has testified under oath about this matter, so sure, he must be lying.

I think it is fairly easy to dismiss circumstantial evidence when there is no evidence that the balls were ever deflated. The texts and the Deflator nickname I can see as being suspicious, but that's not enough to overcome the fact that the league couldn't keep hold of the balls, had crooked officials around the balls, didn't measure them properly, didn't record the measurements, and couldn't even remember which gauges they used. In fact, the league went against the referee's own recollection of which gauges he used because that made their case stronger if the other measurements were used.

The cell phone thing to me is not convincing because if I were Tom Brady, I wouldn't hand over my phone to those assholes either, especially after Wells had declared himself satisfied with Brady's cooperation.

As for whether or not the ref knew that McNally had disappeared with the balls, it was in the testimony that he knew and actually had been pissed about it before the game started.

Your outrage over Brady somehow throwing the flunkies under the bus by saying he didn't know how the balls were deflated (which is perfectly truthful if those balls were not actually deflated) strikes me as similar to that Jets fan who thinks Brady is a bad person because his ex-girlfriend had a baby after they broke up. Obviously my feelings are biased, but I think your irrational hatred of the Patriots is causing you to gloss over the fact that the league either fucked up the measurements too badly to base any kind of discipline on, or that the measurements the league did finally cop to, after they'd done leaking bullshit to Mortensen, indicate that the balls were not deflated.

My thinking has changed as this has gone along, as the depth of the league's manipulation and lying has become more and more clear. The whole thing was too incompetently investigated to ever base any serious criminal wrongdoing on, and we had the damaging leaks that helped the league sell their case and condemned the Patriots with misinformation while this story was in its early stages.

And I am not alone in thinking this is a big frame-job:

Quote

When the New England Patriots were penalized first- and fourth-round picks in May 2015 because of Deflategate, the reaction around the league could only be described as massive joy. Fist bumps and high-fives flew inside NFL front offices and locker rooms. 

"When they were busted," one front-office executive said, "I thought, 'Good! The league finally caught those cheating douchebags.'"

Based on interviews then and now, this was the consensus sentiment among team executives, coaches and players at the time. The Patriots obviously cheated. Everyone knows they did, and the league got it right. 

In the year since, something really strange and unexpected has happened.

I spoke to many of these same sources, 10 interviewed in total, and they now have completely the opposite view. They believe the NFL got the investigation wrong—or mostly wrong—and that the Patriots never cheated. They believe that's the new consensus around the league.

What they say next is even more staggering.

"I hate the Patriots. I despise them," said one NFC team executive, who like everyone else interviewed, asked to remain anonymous for fear of angering the league office. "But they really should get those picks back."

...

What changed the minds of the team officials and players regarding New England's guilt? It was two main things: 

1. The ideal gas law. The law shows that the footballs may have deflated on their own. "I dismissed this when I first heard about it," one general manager said, "and then I read up on it and thought, 'There's something to this.'"

2. The leak of fake PSI numbers. ESPN reported that 11 of the 12 footballs were under-inflated. That proved not only to be false but purposely planted to sway public opinion. It's assumed by most teams, including the Patriots, that the leak came from someone in the league office.

Even the most hardened Patriots haters inside team offices despised this manipulation. It cannot be stated enough, team officials say, how angry some teams were that steps were taken to basically frame a franchise.

Did the Patriots cheat? To many of the sources I spoke to, that's not even the question. The league did not prove that the Patriots cheated, so the question is: How could it punish them anyway? While hatred for the Patriots remains fully intact, they all wonder what's to prevent what happened to the Patriots from happening to them. 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2629481-the-patriots-are-not-on-the-clock-deflategate-fallout-looms-large-in-nfl-draft

So what's more disturbing to you? The idea that the Patriots might have under-inflated some balls, which carries a fine of $20,000 per ball, or the idea that the NFL smeared and slimed one of its own premiere franchises with a hatchet job investigation and false leaks because the Ravens and Colts whined?