It really sucks to be Stannis

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Batbob45 said:

Robert and Renly were way worse brother to Stannis than Stannis was for them

Robert-he gave Renly Storm's end(an hold that Stannis deserved) and Robert arranged Stannis to marry Selyse(who is not an nice person).

Renly-he  had no love or respect for Stannis' side of the family

While both were terrible brother to Stannis, I still think Robert was an better uncle, because he is more uncle material than father material.

I doubt Stannis knew about shadowbinding until after Renly was killed.

Stannis deserved nothing. Or at least not Storms End or Dragonstone. By rights, those belonged to Roberts children. Stannis was just ungrateful.

[John Doe]

On 8.5.2016 at 3:28 PM, Batbob45 said:

Robert and Renly were way worse brother to Stannis than Stannis was for them

Robert-he gave Renly Storm's end(an hold that Stannis deserved) and Robert arranged Stannis to marry Selyse(who is not an nice person).

Renly-he  had no love or respect for Stannis' side of the family

While both were terrible brother to Stannis, I still think Robert was an better uncle, because he is more uncle material than father material.

I doubt Stannis knew about shadowbinding until after Renly was killed.

Agreed, 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, John Doe said:

Agreed, 

Stannis lefthis brother for dead. He was a garbage brother.

[The Flayed Knight]

33 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Stannis lefthis brother for dead. He was a garbage brother.

Stannis saw Renly as a 'pretender', and of course kinslaying does go a step to far. But, from his perspective, he saw his cause as just - and as Batbob said earlier I doubt Stannis had no idea about shadow binding until after Renly was killed.

Although I do believe Stannis deserved more than Dragonstone. Not only did he serve his brother faithfully in the Rebellion, but his deeds in the Greyjoy Rebellion turned the tide for the Crown Forces. 

But I think the Baratheon brothers were a family trapped in tragedy, and were left a broken family after the deaths of their parents.

[Humble Maester]

1 hour ago, The Flayed Knight said:

Stannis saw Renly as a 'pretender', and of course kinslaying does go a step to far. But, from his perspective, he saw his cause as just - and as Batbob said earlier I doubt Stannis had no idea about shadow binding until after Renly was killed.

Although I do believe Stannis deserved more than Dragonstone. Not only did he serve his brother faithfully in the Rebellion, but his deeds in the Greyjoy Rebellion turned the tide for the Crown Forces. 

But I think the Baratheon brothers were a family trapped in tragedy, and were left a broken family after the deaths of their parents.

I think he was referring to the whole "think Cersei's children are a product of incest, investigate with Arryn, Arryn suddenly dies, flee to Dragonstone without a word of warning to his brother, brood on the island fortress gathering swords, do nothing as everything goes to shit in King's Landing and eventually brother gets murdered."

Stannis sure deserved more for such "loyal service".

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Stannis lefthis brother for dead. He was a garbage brother.

Robert? No he didn't. What do you think he was gathering his troops in Dragonstone for? Do you think he wanted Robert to die so he could take the throne with his not even 5000 men? Of course not, that would be stupid. He wanted to build a power base so he could act against the Lannisters. Add to that the fact that Robert would have been in more danger had Stannis told him about the incest, so Stannis' action prolonged his live. 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, John Doe said:

Robert? No he didn't. What do you think he was gathering his troops in Dragonstone for? Do you think he wanted Robert to die so he could take the throne with his not even 5000 men? Of course not, that would be stupid. He wanted to build a power base so he could act against the Lannisters. Add to that the fact that Robert would have been in more danger had Stannis told him about the incest, so Stannis' action prolonged his live. 

And yet he said nothing for a year while Robert died. If he'd told Robert, Renly, Ned or even Barristan at least they'd have stood a fighting chance. Stannis didn't deserve more than Dragonstone for following orders. As the younger brother, Roberts word is law. Stannis was doing his job. He doesn't deserve yhe inheritance of Roberts children for obeying orders.

[Red Helm]

On 5/15/2016 at 1:52 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

And yet he said nothing for a year while Robert died. If he'd told Robert, Renly, Ned or even Barristan at least they'd have stood a fighting chance. Stannis didn't deserve more than Dragonstone for following orders. As the younger brother, Roberts word is law. Stannis was doing his job. He doesn't deserve yhe inheritance of Roberts children for obeying orders.

Given how fond scores of users here are of yarping on about privilege, here's a new one for you: neutral observer privilege. That's what you have, thus it's everso easy to demonise Stannis as this and that for making a wrong decision. And it was indeed a wrong decision, but a decision one can easily empathise with; when you consider how rigid Stannis can be, how deluded Robert can be, and how strained their relationship was (there's a good essay regarding Robert's discomfort at Ned suggesting Stannis be Warden of the East that suggests the relationship is far more strained than at a initial glance) it's quite easy to understand how Stannis felt unable to talk sense into his brother and thus felt backed into a corner, unable to fulfil his duty, and with the only obvious, viable option to carry himself off to his seat of power.

And this notion he should have told Renly (a man with his own agenda), Ned, or Barristan further illustrates the ridiculous expectations people have, albeit I'm not surprised.

You also massively understate Stannis abilities. He was ordered to hold Storm's End, take Dragonstone, and smash the Ironborn, sure, but that's far easier said than done. Holding Storm's End, taking Dragonstone (the way that event is discussed suggests there was a feat or two in there somewhere), and smashing the Ironborn was achieved by the specific abilities of Stannis, not Robert's basic command to hold this and smash that. He absolutely deserved a reward for his services to Robert (specifically, his birthright, not Dragonstone, which I have come to have viewed in a different light after reading the Stannis reread thread)—and before someone brings up Stannis begrudging Ned being lauded for doing his duty by lifting the siege of Storm's End, remember this: not all acts of duty are equal; relaying information to Tyrell is not equal to smashing the Ironborn for example. 

[Red Helm]

Leaving this here directly because the Stannis disparaging is tiresome and this quote deals with many of the points made to demonise the man aptly (courtesy goes to Miodrag):

It will never cease to amaze me how far are some people willing to go in abusing a thread, just so they can prove some ridiculous misconception they forged for god knows what reason. Is it really that hard to see how valuable Storms End actually is, and certainly much more valuable than Dragonstone? Didn't the very events in the books prove how shorthanded Stannis was in that deal? Put Mel out of the equation, and you can clearly see how big an advantage Renly has over Stannis at the start of the war. Is it then that hard to comprehend why did Martin write Stannis as someone who is still bitter about his brother's decision? How would you feel in Stannis' shoes? Better yet, how did you feel when you were shorthanded in school, or in family affairs, or in business - even though, the chances are you've never been nearly as shorthanded as Stannis was?

Stannis also gets perpetually blamed for not telling Robert about twincest: as if Martin didn't establish how hard it was for anyone to speak hard truths to Robert. We're talking about a guy who for 13 years goes on and deludes himself that his fiancee loved him and was forcibly taken away from him. A guy who, as strongly suggested multiple times, disregarded many advices from his mentor and father figure Jon Arryn. A guy whose best friend Ned Stark - possibly the only person that dares to speak any truth to Robert, mind you - couldn't manage to inform him about the twincest. Yeah, the circumstances were not the same at all, at the very end Robert was dying and Ned understandably wanted to spare him from the poisonous truth, but it does speak a lot that even before that, informing Robert right away was never the first option on Ned's mind. And of course we do know how much closer Robert was to Ned than to his brothers: Robert himself says so. Is it then that hard to understand why Stannis decided against telling Robert? I don't even think it's necessary to analyze how endangered Stannis would've been had he told Robert. Chances are he would, just as anyone who stumbled on the truth about twincest was and is, but Stannis doesn't strike me as someone who'd step back from such a challenge. It's more probable, and supported by the text itself, that informing Robert on the biggest and darkest truth in his entire life had to be tough as hell, tough enough for Stannis to delay and delay and delay, until it was too late. Granted, we don't know for sure why exactly Stannis didn't inform his brother, but if we consider Stannis' character (he's a guy who'd rather have Gilly and her baby taken far away than deal with them in any way, for example), it's hardly a stretch to conclude that he just couldn't see the right way to tell his estranged brother what he knows. Robert choosing Ned as his new Hand definitely didn't help, hence Stannis decided to distance himself from all that business for the moment.

It probably wasn't the right decision, because, had he informed Robert, Lannisters would probably be castamered and Westeros would be better off. But guess what: ASOIAF is a story about drastic consequences of bad decisions made by realistic characters. The story is full of decisions gone wrong, or proved bad in hindsight. And those decisions are never without causation, and the dynamics between three Baratheon brothers is as powerful a causation as any. And Martin never neglects to remind readers of that dynamics: he does so as late as in ADWD, when Asha realizes how troubled Stannis still is by the fact he's a younger brother to Robert. Not to mention the death of their parents, a traumatic event that, not surprisingly, made the biggest impact on the middle brother - Renly was too young, and Robert had to take care of the house and didn't have the time to process it, but Stannis was profoundly affected by it. In fact, all three Baratheons are a brilliant creation, in that nobody among them is to be exclusively blamed for and all three of them suffered from the bloody mess they found themselves in, a mess largely designed by two traumatic events they themselves contributed to in no way: the death of their parents, and Aerys' order for Robert to be executed. And among three of them, Stannis is obviously the most complex one. He is really hard to love or even like, as he himself would probably be the first one to admit; and yet, the love and devotion Cressen and Davos feel and show for him is practically unparalleled in ASOIAF. Starks inspire remarkable, magnificent loyalty, but I think we're still to encounter anyone who's willing to risk for them as much as Cressen and Davos were/are for Stannis. As a character that gets absolutely no love from the vast majority of people he encounters, but inspires the deepest possible love and loyalty from the precious few, Stannis is just a brilliant literary creation that is never to be subjected to formulaic analysis and hateful simplification (not to mention how insane the very concept of hating a fictional character actually is).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

10 minutes ago, Red Helm said:

He absolutely deserved a reward for his services to Robert (specifically, his birthright, not Dragonstone,

 

Storm's End was Joffrey's birthright, not Stannis'.

11 minutes ago, Red Helm said:

taking Dragonstone (the way that event is discussed suggests there was a feat or two in there somewhere),

We are told that Robert viewed it as a failure and we are told

They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

Who describes it as being impressive?

[Red Helm]

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Storm's End was Joffrey's birthright, not Stannis'.

Based on what?

Quote

We are told that Robert viewed it as a failure and we are told

They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

Who describes it as being impressive?

A man as deluded as Robert with such a burning hatred for all things Targaryen? Not surprising. And when characters have discussed Stannis' acumen, taking Dragonstone has often being referenced. If the event is noteworthy enough to be listed among the likes of Fair Isle, it suggests to me more went on there than merely sailing and strolling up to the castle gates. 

(But given how I have followed your discussions with Free Northmen Reborn, I'm going to take a stab that the back and forth between us will be utterly fruitless).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

14 minutes ago, Red Helm said:

Based on what?

Robert was the Lord of Storm's End. His sons were first in line for it, then his brothers.

Joffrey is 13 and 13 years ago was when Renly was awarded Storm's End

"Your brother has been the Lord of Storm's End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—"

 

14 minutes ago, Red Helm said:

A man as deluded as Robert with such a burning hatred for all things Targaryen? Not surprising. And when characters have discussed Stannis' acumen, taking Dragonstone has often being referenced. If the event is noteworthy enough to be listed among the likes of Fair Isle, it suggests to me more went on there than merely sailing and strolling up to the castle gates. 

It is mentioned whenever Stannis or no1 fan Davos list off all of Stannis' victories.

"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

 

Neither really call it impressive.

14 minutes ago, Red Helm said:

(But given how I have followed your discussions with Free Northmen Reborn, I'm going to take a stab that the back and forth between us will be utterly fruitless).

Sure. A bit of a defeatist attitude, but fair enough.

[Valens]

8 hours ago, Red Helm said:

Given how fond scores of users here are of yarping on about privilege, here's a new one for you: neutral observer privilege. That's what you have, thus it's everso easy to demonise Stannis as this and that for making a wrong decision. And it was indeed a wrong decision, but a decision one can easily empathise with; when you consider how rigid Stannis can be, how deluded Robert can be, and how strained their relationship was (there's a good essay regarding Robert's discomfort at Ned suggesting Stannis be Warden of the East that suggests the relationship is far more strained than at a initial glance) it's quite easy to understand how Stannis felt unable to talk sense into his brother and thus felt backed into a corner, unable to fulfil his duty, and with the only obvious, viable option to carry himself off to his seat of power.

And this notion he should have told Renly (a man with his own agenda), Ned, or Barristan further illustrates the ridiculous expectations people have, albeit I'm not surprised.

You also massively understate Stannis abilities. He was ordered to hold Storm's End, take Dragonstone, and smash the Ironborn, sure, but that's far easier said than done. Holding Storm's End, taking Dragonstone (the way that event is discussed suggests there was a feat or two in there somewhere), and smashing the Ironborn was achieved by the specific abilities of Stannis, not Robert's basic command to hold this and smash that. He absolutely deserved a reward for his services to Robert (specifically, his birthright, not Dragonstone, which I have come to have viewed in a different light after reading the Stannis reread thread)—and before someone brings up Stannis begrudging Ned being lauded for doing his duty by lifting the siege of Storm's End, remember this: not all acts of duty are equal; relaying information to Tyrell is not equal to smashing the Ironborn for example. 

That's right. Only Robert-lovers can say something as daft as that-he was following Robert's basic commands. LOL at that! I bet the person who wrote that has never been in the army.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Regardless if folks think it was enough or little a reward  to Stannis, it was not meant as a slight like Cersei says... GRRM already told us that... no slights and Joff and Tommen get SE and DS

Now, taking that it wasn't a slight then it was strategic thinking, Stannis lords over the first defence and likely target of a future Targ uprising and the young Renly keeps SE a loyal pilar just by his charisma and being "Robert come again" to the locals...

Could Stannis been given more? hell yes... was it his right? no, because as GRRM says it was due to Robert's careless generosity the giving of DS and SE to his brothers, because it was their role to make those strategic jobs EVEN without being lords of SE and DS, but lords they were regardless...

[Lord Varys]

@Red Helm

1. Stannis has no birthrights. He is a second son, he has no right to anything. At best he was Robert's heir presumptive until the man had a son of his own, but he cannot deduce any special right from that.

2. It was Robert's decision to keep or give the lands and titles he held as Lord of Storm's End and King of Westeros. Stannis had no right to complain. Robert could have made his master of horse the new Lord of Storm's End and Stannis would still have had no right to complain because the granting of lands and titles is the prerogative of the king, and nobody else.

3. Stannis doing his duty (like Kevan did to Tywin, for instance) and fighting battles in Robert's name doesn't entitle him to special privileges to complain or demand anything. Stannis was nothing but a landless nobleman (we don't know whether Stannis is a knight) until Robert in his careless generosity granted him Dragonstone and its lands and incomes, making him a lord in his own right.

4. Stannis failed to inform his royal brother about his suspicions about the queen, nor did he share his suspicions with anybody else after Jon Arryn's death. That's not a noble thing to do. It would have been Stannis' duty to inform the king of the possibility that the son(s) he had acknowledged as his heir(s) may not have been his seed. By not doing so Stannis actually may have forfeited any legal right to challenge the succession because, you know, Stannis didn't have any proof that Cersei's children weren't Robert's seed nor did he have some decree by Robert declaring Cersei's children bastards. Stannis all by himself doesn't have the legal right to unmake royal princes.

5. Stannis also failed to answer the letters sent to him by Eddard Stark, the Hand of the King, or return to court to take up his duties as Master of Ships. He is not only guilty of not telling Robert what he thought was going on, but also refused to try the Jon Arryn approach with Ned Stark. And the reason for this is clearly the fact that the resented Ned's appointment as Hand of the King and him being pissed that his royal brother didn't grant the office to him. The fact remains that Stannis Baratheon abandoned Robert Baratheon to his enemies and waited on his island until his brother was dead. And then he tried to steal the Iron Throne Robert Baratheon had left to his legal son, Joffrey Baratheon, on his deathbed and in his spoken will.

[Crippledtank]

I love a stannis thread.

 

Honestly as much as i love the mannis we have to admit he suffers a little from middle child syndrome (MCS)

While stannis was a good choice for the position of hand, jon arryn was the best option especially with the situation westeros was in, the realm needed a diplomat who could compromise (not a strong suit for stannis). Why ned was chosen before him is absolutely mind boggling to me.

The handling of storms end/dragonstone was interesting, however i feel like stannis would feel worse off no matter the result. Theres dragonstone that doesnt have the man power or the resources of the storm lands, however it is regarded as the seat of the heir and has been so for nearly 300 years (stannis may feel slighted with the refusal of this seat). then there storms end, the seat of the baratheons for nearly 300 years, has much greater resources and man power, and stannis had bravely held the keep for months during a siege. Best case scenario for stannis would include him having storms end while robert deceees that itll now be the seat of the heir of the throne as well. However i dont think the stormlands should be subject to random changes on its leadership, especially around the time of a succession where its ruling lord is now king.

Why renly didnt fight for stannis is puzzling, he was much younger plus stannis wasnt exactly struggling to count his heirs. Renlys pr with stannis' leadership would have been brutal

 

 

 

[Winter's Cold]

18 minutes ago, Crippledtank said:

I love a stannis thread.

 

Honestly as much as i love the mannis we have to admit he suffers a little from middle child syndrome (MCS)

While stannis was a good choice for the position of hand, jon arryn was the best option especially with the situation westeros was in, the realm needed a diplomat who could compromise (not a strong suit for stannis). Why ned was chosen before him is absolutely mind boggling to me.

The Hand is someone that the King trusts to be loyal and to also fulfill his wishes. Stannis' desire to close all brothels in King's Landing is contrary to the King's wishes and thus it disqualified him from becoming Hand. Ned Stark is also far more loyal to Robert than Stannis is. If Stannis was a truly loyal and dutiful brother, he would at least stay in King's Landing to help Ned and Robert instead of fleeing to Dragonstone. Was he not the only small council member absent?

18 minutes ago, Crippledtank said:

The handling of storms end/dragonstone was interesting, however i feel like stannis would feel worse off no matter the result. Theres dragonstone that doesnt have the man power or the resources of the storm lands, however it is regarded as the seat of the heir and has been so for nearly 300 years (stannis may feel slighted with the refusal of this seat). then there storms end, the seat of the baratheons for nearly 300 years, has much greater resources and man power, and stannis had bravely held the keep for months during a siege. Best case scenario for stannis would include him having storms end while robert deceees that itll now be the seat of the heir of the throne as well. However i dont think the stormlands should be subject to random changes on its leadership, especially around the time of a succession where its ruling lord is now king.

Stannis should be grateful to receive anything. Second sons are entitled to nothing unless the eldest son dies. His dissatisfaction with this is one of the primary reasons why I view Stannis as an ambitious character rather than a dutiful one. It also makes far more sense for him to have Dragonstone rather than Storm's End due to his role on the small council as the Master of Ships.

18 minutes ago, Crippledtank said:

Why renly didnt fight for stannis is puzzling, he was much younger plus stannis wasnt exactly struggling to count his heirs. Renlys pr with stannis' leadership would have been brutal

Stannis was out of contact on Dragonstone while Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark died in King's Landing. Then after these deaths, he sends ridiculous letters claiming that the new King is a bastard because he takes after his mother. He also declares himself after both Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon are crowned. Thus, Renly can no longer support Stannis even if he wished to because he has already allied himself with the Tyrells.

If he abandoned his claim the throne, the Tyrells would promptly abandon him as well and ally with the Iron Throne instead. The Tyrells would definitely not support Stannis becoming King with a Florent Queen. He also advocated for the Tyrells to be punished after the Rebellion. 

[John Doe]

15 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Stannis should be grateful to receive anything. Second sons are entitled to nothing unless the eldest son dies. His dissatisfaction with this is one of the primary reasons why I view Stannis as an ambitious character rather than a dutiful one. 

Again, he isn't dissatisfied with getting Dragonstone, he is dissatisfied with his brother who did nothing getting a far bigger reward, which is understandable. 

[Crippledtank]

16 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

The Hand is someone that the King trusts to be loyal and to also fulfill his wishes. Stannis' desire to close all brothels in King's Landing is contrary to the King's wishes and thus it disqualified him from becoming Hand. Ned Stark is also far more loyal to Robert than Stannis is. If Stannis was a truly loyal and dutiful brother, he would at least stay in King's Landing to help Ned and Robert instead of fleeing to Dragonstone. Was he not the only small council member absent?

Stannis should be grateful to receive anything. Second sons are entitled to nothing unless the eldest son dies. His dissatisfaction with this is one of the primary reasons why I view Stannis as an ambitious character rather than a dutiful one. It also makes far more sense for him to have Dragonstone rather than Storm's End due to his role on the small council as the Master of Ships.

Stannis was out of contact on Dragonstone while Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark died in King's Landing. Then after these deaths, he sends ridiculous letters claiming that the new King is a bastard because he takes after his mother. He also declares himself after both Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon are crowned. Thus, Renly can no longer support Stannis even if he wished to because he has already allied himself with the Tyrells.

If he abandoned his claim the throne, the Tyrells would promptly abandon him as well and ally with the Iron Throne instead. The Tyrells would definitely not support Stannis becoming King with a Florent Queen. He also advocated for the Tyrells to be punished after the Rebellion. 

What stannis did during the seige of SE, plus the taking of dragon stone plus destroying the iron fleet proves he was loyal to Robert in the tough times.

 

Didnt stannis ditch kings landing after robert when to fetch ned? At that point any hope stannis had to help robert would have been dashed especially with the death of jon arryn.

 

Yes id agree the tyrrels pretty much tied renlys hands

[Lord Varys]

@Crippledtank

Stannis wouldn't have been a good Hand in any case. The man wasn't exactly popular and he didn't get along well with his royal brother. Back when Robert named his first Hand Stannis would have been too young and inexperienced in any case. Robert wanted a man he trusted and liked, not his little brother with whom he didn't get along.

When Jon Arryn died Stannis and Robert's relationship most likely had reached an all-time low. Stannis felt for years that his contribution to his brother's glorious reign was under-appreciated, and Robert had neither patience nor any understanding for Stannis less than practical suggesting like banning prostitution in King's Landing.

Vice versa, Stannis had apparently also grown tired of the corruption at Robert's court and disillusioned about any positive impact he might have had there. He was pretty much at odds with most of the other counselors (Renly, Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle).

Robert isn't completely blind how things stand at his court, though. He knows that he has no friends there, and that his brothers don't give a damn about him - they, too, are only interested in themselves. Robert literally tells Ned that he is the only friend he has left. He can now only trust Ned, and that's why he names him Hand. Robert knew he could trust neither Stannis nor Renly, and had no inclination of doing so. And he was right in that.

Imagine what Stannis or Renly would have done had either of them been Hand when Robert died? They would have killed Cersei and her children - Stannis because of his belief in the incest story, and Renly because of his own ambition - and taken the throne for themselves just as they tried to do in the actual story.