It really sucks to be Stannis

[Crippledtank]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Crippledtank

Stannis wouldn't have been a good Hand in any case. The man wasn't exactly popular and he didn't get along well with his royal brother. Back when Robert named his first Hand Stannis would have been too young and inexperienced in any case. Robert wanted a man he trusted and liked, not his little brother with whom he didn't get along.

When Jon Arryn died Stannis and Robert's relationship most likely had reached an all-time low. Stannis felt for years that his contribution to his brother's glorious reign was under-appreciated, and Robert had neither patience nor any understanding for Stannis less than practical suggesting like banning prostitution in King's Landing.

Vice versa, Stannis had apparently also grown tired of the corruption at Robert's court and disillusioned about any positive impact he might have had there. He was pretty much at odds with most of the other counselors (Renly, Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle).

Robert isn't completely blind how things stand at his court, though. He knows that he has no friends there, and that his brothers don't give a damn about him - they, too, are only interested in themselves. Robert literally tells Ned that he is the only friend he has left. He can now only trust Ned, and that's why he names him Hand. Robert knew he could trust neither Stannis nor Renly, and had no inclination of doing so. And he was right in that.

Imagine what Stannis or Renly would have done had either of them been Hand when Robert died? They would have killed Cersei and her children - Stannis because of his belief in the incest story, and Renly because of his own ambition - and taken the throne for themselves just as they tried to do in the actual story.

Actually i think stannis would make a great hand, at least on par with Ned, Robert didnt do much to help the divide between him and stannis, which ultimately led to robert alienating himself. If Stannis was a stern hand i think he could of whipped the council into shape, providing he had roberts backing. At council stannis was master of ships, and was against varys, Lf, pycelle and renly, stannis or anyone would have been more use to the kingdom if he was shovelling a new wall with a fork.

Youre right, Stannis was very stannis centered including to his duty, which he proved in thw siege and against the IB. Robert managed to piss off the only guy on the small council who actually benefitted his reign.

Yer they both would have disposed of the lannisters....Just like Ned, i think Stannis would at least gove cersei a trial (a biased trial but not a slaughtering)

 

 

[Winter's Cold]

43 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Again, he isn't dissatisfied with getting Dragonstone, he is dissatisfied with his brother who did nothing getting a far bigger reward, which is understandable. 

He shouldn't even have Dragonstone. By rights that should pass to Robert's children not Stannis. If he was a dutiful brother why would he care about Storm's End and its incomes. If he is actually ambitious and power hungry then yes it makes sense that he would be upset. 

[John Doe]

12 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

He shouldn't even have Dragonstone. By rights that should pass to Robert's children not Stannis. If he was a dutiful brother why would he care about Storm's End and its incomes. If he is actually ambitious and power hungry then yes it makes sense that he would be upset. 

He wouldn't complain if Robert's children had both castles, he complains that he deserved more than Renly and got less. Must be due to his righteousness. 

[Ruhail]

20 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

He shouldn't even have Dragonstone. By rights that should pass to Robert's children not Stannis. If he was a dutiful brother why would he care about Storm's End and its incomes. If he is actually ambitious and power hungry then yes it makes sense that he would be upset. 

Hes upset at Robert passing him over for Storm's because by all the laws of Westeros the eldest always comes before the younger brother in  the feudal succession system its really that simple for him.

[Raisin' Bran]

28 minutes ago, Crippledtank said:

Actually i think stannis would make a great hand, at least on par with Ned, Robert didnt do much to help the divide between him and stannis, which ultimately led to robert alienating himself. If Stannis was a stern hand i think he could of whipped the council into shape, providing he had roberts backing. At council stannis was master of ships, and was against varys, Lf, pycelle and renly, stannis or anyone would have been more use to the kingdom if he was shovelling a new wall with a fork.

Youre right, Stannis was very stannis centered including to his duty, which he proved in thw siege and against the IB. Robert managed to piss off the only guy on the small council who actually benefitted his reign.

Yer they both would have disposed of the lannisters....Just like Ned, i think Stannis would at least gove cersei a trial (a biased trial but not a slaughtering)

I think that Ned was a less than average Hand. Of the Hands that we have seen closely (Ned, Tyrion, Tywin), Ned was the worst. Sure Ned was honorable, and that made us like him, but that does not mean he was a good politician.

And Robert would never have backed Stannis. King Bob had no interest in "whipping the council into shape". He did what he wanted and seemed to habitually let the other council members do whatever they wanted. He took no interest in the daily running of the kingdom and only attended council meetings when the subject at hand was "interesting" (war, tournaments).

[Winter's Cold]

Quote

Hes upset at Robert passing him over for Storm's because by all the laws of Westeros the eldest always comes before the younger brother in  the feudal succession system its really that simple for him.

The eldest is Robert not Stannis. Thus it's Robert right to decide who to give Storm's End to. In feudal succession the eldest gets everything. Stannis is entitled to nothing.

[Sullen]

1 hour ago, Crippledtank said:

Actually i think stannis would make a great hand, at least on par with Ned, Robert didnt do much to help the divide between him and stannis, which ultimately led to robert alienating himself. If Stannis was a stern hand i think he could of whipped the council into shape, providing he had roberts backing. At council stannis was master of ships, and was against varys, Lf, pycelle and renly, stannis or anyone would have been more use to the kingdom if he was shovelling a new wall with a fork.

 

The Hand is supposed to maintain the King's good relations with his vassals, and express the King's intentions to the Realm.

Considering Stannis hates everyone and is terrible at conciliating, he would have been a shit Hand, not too mention that him getting this position would have pissed off the Tyrells.

1 hour ago, Crippledtank said:

Youre right, Stannis was very stannis centered including to his duty, which he proved in thw siege and against the IB. Robert managed to piss off the only guy on the small council who actually benefitted his reign.

Jon Arryn benefited the Realm way more than Stannis ever did.

Renly and Barristan arguably as well, considering that Stannis hid treason from his King, sowing the seeds for a massive ass rebellion and resulting in the King getting offed, I'd say he was pretty damned detrimental to Robert's reign.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Imagine what Stannis or Renly would have done had either of them been Hand when Robert died? They would have killed Cersei and her children - Stannis because of his belief in the incest story, and Renly because of his own ambition - and taken the throne for themselves just as they tried to do in the actual story.

I highly doubt Renly would have murdered anyone.

Renly's only justification for crowning himself in the books is self-preservation, he doesn't need that if he has the King under his thumb. More than likely has simply ships Cersei home and keeps his grip on poor King Joffrey tight.

[John Doe]

57 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

The eldest is Robert not Stannis. Thus it's Robert right to decide who to give Storm's End to. In feudal succession the eldest gets everything. Stannis is entitled to nothing.

It's similar to a father giving his lands and titles to a second son. Sure, it's his right to decide, but the firstborn would still feel cheated. 

[Valens]

21 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It's similar to a father giving his lands and titles to a second son. Sure, it's his right to decide, but the firstborn would still feel cheated. 

Exactly! Who is Robert so his actions should not be questioned? Lol! That sure is coming from a Robert-lovah.

[Sullen]

22 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It's similar to a father giving his lands and titles to a second son. Sure, it's his right to decide, but the firstborn would still feel cheated. 

Sons and brothers are not the same.

Robert has no obligations towards his brothers, while he is expected to  provide for his children.

[Winter's Cold]

27 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It's similar to a father giving his lands and titles to a second son. Sure, it's his right to decide, but the firstborn would still feel cheated. 

A father can't give his titles and lands to a second son unless he disinherits his eldest son.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Crippledtank said:

Actually i think stannis would make a great hand, at least on par with Ned, Robert didnt do much to help the divide between him and stannis, which ultimately led to robert alienating himself. If Stannis was a stern hand i think he could of whipped the council into shape, providing he had roberts backing. At council stannis was master of ships, and was against varys, Lf, pycelle and renly, stannis or anyone would have been more use to the kingdom if he was shovelling a new wall with a fork.

Youre right, Stannis was very stannis centered including to his duty, which he proved in thw siege and against the IB. Robert managed to piss off the only guy on the small council who actually benefitted his reign.

Yer they both would have disposed of the lannisters....Just like Ned, i think Stannis would at least gove cersei a trial (a biased trial but not a slaughtering)

Stannis would have been a terrible Hand because the man simply didn't get along with his royal brother nor did he agree with his politics (if you call it that). But most importantly, Robert wouldn't have been able to trust Stannis. He could trust Ned, though, and that made Ned a infinitely better Hand than Stannis could ever have been. And Ned had the potential to be a great Hand. What got in his way was the strong feeling that his place wasn't in KL/that he wanted to go back home as well as him being distracted with this whole Jon Arryn murder mystery. Had Ned's only mission been to rule the Realm in his king's name he would have done fine.

Stannis would never have enjoyed Robert's support on anything he proposed as Hand. He would not have outlawed brothels, he would not have dismissed Littlefinger and found a new Master of Coin, he would not even have replaced Janos Slynt as Lord Commander of the City Watch. Stannis and Robert were like fire and water, they wouldn't have been able to rule together.

And in the end Stannis let his brother. In his heart he may even have smiled that his drunkard brother was killed by that boar. After all, that made the way free for him and now he would show Westeros how a 'truly just king' looks like. It is pretty evident that this is Stannis' ultimate desire.

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

I highly doubt Renly would have murdered anyone.

Renly's only justification for crowning himself in the books is self-preservation, he doesn't need that if he has the King under his thumb. More than likely has simply ships Cersei home and keeps his grip on poor King Joffrey tight.

That is a common misunderstanding. We know that relations between Cersei and Renly were bad but there is no reason to believe that this was so because of Cersei/Joffrey. Or at least not only because of them. Renly mocked and laughed at the Crown Prince of Westeros at Castle Darry. If you do this kind of thing you cannot complain that the queen and the Crown Prince don't like you.

Renly's so-called self-preservation included the eventual murder of Cersei, her children, and Stannis, and he was fine enough with all of that to make jokes about it. Just as he had no problems murdering Daenerys Targaryen.

The idea that Renly only came up with the idea to crown himself after Ned rejected his offer makes little sense, either, because actually arresting the queen and the royal children was already treason. Renly had no right to suggest anything like to Ned regardless whether Robert was still alive or dead. Joff and Cersei would eventually have to go in such a scenario because King Joffrey and Cersei would have remembered how Ned and Renly treated them, and look for revenge. Renly could kiss Storm's End and his head goodbye on Joff's sixteenth nameday.

Renly would have been aware of that and either planned to murder Cersei and her children early on in 'King Joffrey's reign' or at a later date, but most certainly long before Joffrey had the chance to take a more active role in his own government.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

It's similar to a father giving his lands and titles to a second son. Sure, it's his right to decide, but the firstborn would still feel cheated. 

Except Joffrey was alive, or at least conceived, at the point Robert decided to give Storm's End to Joffrey. It was Joffrey and his siblings who were deprived of their 'birthright'.

The timeline seems to be that Dragonstone (and the Narrow Sea Islands) were given to Stannis a year or so before Robert gave away Storm's End to Renly.

 

3 hours ago, Crippledtank said:

Actually i think stannis would make a great hand

Possibly but not for Robert. He would have been disastrous as Robert wanted everyone to get along with as little friction as possible. Stannis would be aggravating both the Lords of the Realm who would constantly complain to Robert who would then overrule Stannis who would then further resent his brother. Recipe for disaster.

Under a King like Aerys I or Aenys he may have been a great Hand but sadly not under Robert.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Possibly but not for Robert. He would have been disastrous as Robert wanted everyone to get along with as little friction as possible. Stannis would be aggravating both the Lords of the Realm who would constantly complain to Robert who would then overrule Stannis who would then further resent his brother. Recipe for disaster.

Under a King like Aerys I or Aenys he may have been a great Hand but sadly not under Robert.

Stannis would only have been a decent Hand under a king who thought like him. Under a king like Aerys I or Aenys I he would have stepped in for the king completely (or at least tried to do so) and that would have caused the lords and people to rebel against the king because they, most likely, would have rightfully pointed out that Stannis' rigid/insane ideas weren't what the king himself would do.

[Sullen]

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a common misunderstanding. We know that relations between Cersei and Renly were bad but there is no reason to believe that this was so because of Cersei/Joffrey. Or at least not only because of them. Renly mocked and laughed at the Crown Prince of Westeros at Castle Darry. If you do this kind of thing you cannot complain that the queen and the Crown Prince don't like you.

Renly mocks people, it's part of his personality and yes, part of why they don't like him, that doesn't mean he wants to murder them.

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly's so-called self-preservation included the eventual murder of Cersei, her children, and Stannis, and he was fine enough with all of that to make jokes about it. Just as he had no problems murdering Daenerys Targaryen.

Cersei, yes, she committed treason by seizing the regency. Not murder though.

Her children, no, he can send Joffrey to the Wall and keep Tommen and Myrcella as hostages, considering his obsession with image, it's what he would have done.

Stannis, only after he threatened to kill him. Stannis is in the fault here, and Renly can easily claim self-defense. It's not murder.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Renly only came up with the idea to crown himself after Ned rejected his offer makes little sense, either, because actually arresting the queen and the royal children was already treason. Renly had no right to suggest anything like to Ned regardless whether Robert was still alive or dead. Joff and Cersei would eventually have to go in such a scenario because King Joffrey and Cersei would have remembered how Ned and Renly treated them, and look for revenge. Renly could kiss Storm's End and his head goodbye on Joff's sixteenth nameday.

Cersei is sent to Casterly Rock, obviously.

Joffrey can be seized under the pretense of enacting Robert's will as soon as possible, and with minimal bloodloss. I doubt there would be much resistance from the Lannister guards when they see a few hundred soldiers claiming to be there to protect the new King.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly would have been aware of that and either planned to murder Cersei and her children early on in 'King Joffrey's reign' or at a later date, but most certainly long before Joffrey had the chance to take a more active role in his own government.

Only if you think Renly's idea of taking hold of the children involves killing everyone on his way to them. 

[John Doe]

12 hours ago, Sullen said:

Sons and brothers are not the same.

Robert has no obligations towards his brothers, while he is expected to  provide for his children.

That's not entirely true, a lord has obligations towards his family as a whole. 

12 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

A father can't give his titles and lands to a second son unless he disinherits his eldest son.

It didn't seem like Robert disinherited Joffrey. 

11 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Except Joffrey was alive, or at least conceived, at the point Robert decided to give Storm's End to Joffrey. It was Joffrey and his siblings who were deprived of their 'birthright'.

Again, that is true. But Stannis wouldn't have felt cheated for getting Dragonstone, while Joffrey got Storm's End. He felt cheated because Renly, who was younger and didn't lift a finger during the rebellion, got a bigger reward than both the king's son and he himself. 

[Lord Varys]

@John Doe

Renly wasn't rewarded, and neither was Stannis. Renly just got Storm's End while Stannis did not. Stannis only got Dragonstone because Robert felt he needed a strong guy in charge of the ancient Targaryen stronghold in case Viserys would come back. It was never meant as a reward for Stannis' service, it was simply part of his agenda to consolidate his rule.

For some strange reason Stannis thought he deserved Storm's End. But that was entirely based on presumption and arrogance on his part. The man deserved nothing.

Renly neither, of course, yet it is perfectly fine for a king to hand out titles and lordships as he sees fit.

@Sullen

Renly is perfectly fine with killing Stannis during the war (just as Stannis is with killing Renly) and this extends to Cersei and her children, too. If Renly is okay with murdering Daenerys Targaryen (who is neither an immediate threat to Robert's crown nor guilty of any crime aside from her very existence) then I see no basis for you speculation about Joff or any of Cersei's children (or Cersei herself) being spared. Why would Renly want to do that? Had he taken KL and captured Cersei and her children he would have been able to kill them all.

Tywin would have continued the war in the name of Cersei's eldest surviving child if Renly had just taken (some of) them hostage, and Joff was clearly to young (and certainly not willing) to go to the Wall. Any oath Renly would have forced him to swear would have been worth nothing if there had still been armies in the field fighting in his name. Only the permanent removal of Robert's line (and Stannis, if he insisted on being king) would have secured Renly's throne.

The man jokes makes fun of a lot things but he would have to be a butcher of children and kinslayer to take the Iron Throne - and I really don't think he had a problem with that.

I also think you greatly misjudge Joffrey's character and the potential danger a king like he would be to anyone he thinks has once wronged him. Any pretext Renly or Ned cite for arresting the royal family wouldn't convince Joffrey, and the idea that this could even be done without bloodshed is ridiculous. Sandor Clegane and the Lannister-inclined KG would not relent - perhaps even Barristan Selmy would fight to the death because, you know, neither the Hand nor the king's brother have any right to arrest the queen and her children.

Joff would remember all that and be hellbent to destroy those people as soon as he was in charge. Not to mention that Tywin wouldn't suffer Ned Stark as regent of his grandson regardless what Robert had decreed. He would continue his war in Joff's name and eventually knock at the gates of KL. Ned and Renly certainly could not use Cersei and her children as hostages if they proclaim to rule in the name of King Joffrey, right?

Renly was not stupid enough to believe that he could rise high at Joffrey's court. He would have tried to solve the Lannister problem permanently by getting rid of Cersei and her children, and then he would have crowned himself just as he did.

There is no hint that his own coronation was some sort of self-preservation. He did it, because he could. And he wanted to be king because he wanted to be king. And he certainly did not only want to be king after Ned Stark rejected his offer.

[John Doe]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@John Doe

Renly wasn't rewarded, and neither was Stannis. Renly just got Storm's End while Stannis did not. Stannis only got Dragonstone because Robert felt he needed a strong guy in charge of the ancient Targaryen stronghold in case Viserys would come back. It was never meant as a reward for Stannis' service, it was simply part of his agenda to consolidate his rule.

For some strange reason Stannis thought he deserved Storm's End. But that was entirely based on presumption and arrogance on his part. The man deserved nothing.

Renly neither, of course, yet it is perfectly fine for a king to hand out titles and lordships as he sees fit.

Since Martin said it was because of Robert's generosity, it seems like he did indeed reward them, or at least it was more than part of his agenda. It is understandable why Stannis would think that he, as the older brother who actually did something during the rebellion, deserved the better castle more. "The man deserved nothing"? For holding Storm's End and taking Dragonstone? Sure, services are required, but usually good service is rewarded, so I can see why he deserved more than Renly. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Since Martin said it was because of Robert's generosity, it seems like he did indeed reward them, or at least it was more than part of his agenda. It is understandable why Stannis would think that he, as the older brother who actually did something during the rebellion, deserved the better castle more. "The man deserved nothing"? For holding Storm's End and taking Dragonstone? Sure, services are required, but usually good service is rewarded, so I can see why he deserved more than Renly. 

Generosity has nothing to do with rewarding people. I can invite you to dinner just because I want to or because I like you, you don't have to do anything to deserve that, right?

And we actually do not know whether Stannis and Renly got their castles and lordships at the same time. My guess is that Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone as soon as the man had taken it while he only parted with Storm's End some time later. There is no reason for us to assume that these grants were connected in any way. In fact, I think Robert's decision to give Storm's End to Renly was some sort sudden impulse not really thought through. I don't think he discussed this with anyone else, especially not Cersei but most likely also not Jon Arryn or Stannis (who all would have counseled against such an idea).

The best way to make sense of this is to assume it was an idea that suddenly came to Robert when he visited Renly and Storm's End shortly after the war, perhaps remembering his parents and his childhood at the castle, and realizing how much young Renly was like him. He might have been sad that his children wouldn't grow up at Storm's End but rather at court and thus might have decided: 'Hell, this is a Baratheon place, my brother shall have it. The boy deserves some peace and happiness after the death of our parents and the problems the war caused.'

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Red Helm said:

Given how fond scores of users here are of yarping on about privilege, here's a new one for you: neutral observer privilege. That's what you have, thus it's everso easy to demonise Stannis as this and that for making a wrong decision. And it was indeed a wrong decision, but a decision one can easily empathise with; when you consider how rigid Stannis can be, how deluded Robert can be, and how strained their relationship was (there's a good essay regarding Robert's discomfort at Ned suggesting Stannis be Warden of the East that suggests the relationship is far more strained than at a initial glance) it's quite easy to understand how Stannis felt unable to talk sense into his brother and thus felt backed into a corner, unable to fulfil his duty, and with the only obvious, viable option to carry himself off to his seat of power.

And this notion he should have told Renly (a man with his own agenda), Ned, or Barristan further illustrates the ridiculous expectations people have, albeit I'm not surprised.

You also massively understate Stannis abilities. He was ordered to hold Storm's End, take Dragonstone, and smash the Ironborn, sure, but that's far easier said than done. Holding Storm's End, taking Dragonstone (the way that event is discussed suggests there was a feat or two in there somewhere), and smashing the Ironborn was achieved by the specific abilities of Stannis, not Robert's basic command to hold this and smash that. He absolutely deserved a reward for his services to Robert (specifically, his birthright, not Dragonstone, which I have come to have viewed in a different light after reading the Stannis reread thread)—and before someone brings up Stannis begrudging Ned being lauded for doing his duty by lifting the siege of Storm's End, remember this: not all acts of duty are equal; relaying information to Tyrell is not equal to smashing the Ironborn for example. 

1) Renly's agenda was securing the throne for House Baratheon. You give no valid reason for Stannis not to trust Ned or Barristan with the information he was sitting on.

2) Stannis deserved nothing. Certainly not the inheritance of Roberts children. Second sons are supposed to serve their brothers, his son and grandson without complaint. What did Brynden get? What did Benjen get?

3) Storms End was not Stannis' birthright. That was Joffreys. Stannis was just a greedy ingrate.