It really sucks to be Stannis

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, John Doe said:

That's your opinion, not a fact. Unless it can be backed up by the books. 

It is the better interpretation, though, because it explains why the hell Stannis didn't warn Robert about Cersei and tried to tell his brother the truth about his children as he saw it. Or shared his suspicions about the murder of Jon Arryn with him.

9 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Killing Renly isn't the same as wanting Robert to die. Renly was prepared to kill him, and he was a traitor. You can't say because he was prepared to destroy Renly he would have destroy Robert too. And being told that you defeat your brother at Storm's End is a bit different from saying "Mel, kill him with your demon!" and then not remembering to have done so. We don't know the details, so it's useless to discuss the topic like we do. 

Stannis was (and still is) a traitor, too. He had no proof that Cersei's children weren't Robert's.

I didn't say Stannis intended to destroy Robert. He just allowed him to die. That's not the same. Lysa didn't kill Catelyn and Robb but she let them die by not intervening. Stannis did exactly the same thing.

What we do know is that Stannis was listening to Selyse's talk about 'inheriting Renly's troops if he should die' long before Renly had many any threats against Stannis.

I don't like Renly very much but he actually thought Stannis might support his claim against the Lannisters before Stannis began his stupid siege of Storm's End. He was, in the end, willing to kill Stannis, of course, but unlike Stannis he didn't listen to the poisoned advice of a woman who actually wanted him to murder his brother by using magic.

Stannis tells Davos that he didn't murder Renly himself because he was in his tent, sleeping, when Renly died. He never says he didn't want to murder Renly or didn't command the murder/allow the murder of Renly. When Davos says that the world we know that Stannis had no hand in his brothers' deaths he only half hears him. He talks about Robert, Jon Arryn, and Ned Stark but he doesn't want to punish the murderer of Renly. Then he talks about the nightmare he had. He knows that he ordered the death of Renly, and that he himself killed them - or rather a part of him did it. Stannis is the murderer of Renly, and he knows it. That's why he cannot condemn the man who did the deed, and it is also the reason why he earlier says it doesn't matter who did the deed.

It very much does. Because he did it.

[Hangover of the Morning]

19 minutes ago, John Doe said:

I don't remember their relationship ever being described as a trusting one. The Baratheon brothers are very dysfunctional. 

Maybe it doesn't, maybe it does. But if Stannis thought it meant Robert didn't trust him it's enough reason to delay telling him. 

Again, it's not such a clear cut decision. Is trying to save your king in a way that most likely ensures success, even if it delays your action, abandoning your duty? Depends on your point of view, I guess.

Robert died at least half a year after Jon Arryn if not longer. Plenty of time for Stannis to get himself into safety and to devise a strategy as to how to inform his brother about his suspicion without having to risk his life (not that in itself should be an excuse for him to not to perform his duty). Apparently, Stannis felt that he did not have enough evidence to informally approach his own brother or Ned and tell them about his suspicions, yet he thought that very same evidence was enough for the whole realm to fight for him and proclaim him their King. 

Stannis had zero reason to be afraid of Robert, quite the contrary. He was banking on Robert to not to give a damn that he abandoned his duty, left the Small Council and took half of the Robert's fleet with him. Robert was a disinterested brother who didn't like his siblings, yet kept giving them gifts and powerful positions and keeping them around. Robert's been very soft even on his enemies, as long as their name wasn't Targaryen. The most that could have happened to Stannis was that his suspicious wouldn't be laughed at or ignored. 

As @thelittledragonthatcould rightly pointed out if Stannis feared so much for his life, he'd be relieved that he wasn't named the Hand of the King, not bitch about it day and night. 

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

You hold him to a ridiculously high standard if you expect Stannis to have a school near dragonstone where they teach commoners how to rule. Obviosly that's not going to happen. Davos is the only one Stannis can trust? What about Suggs, Horpe, Massey, Rolland Storm, any of the more then thousand men marching with him through a blizzard to Winterfell? You see, your argument falls flat. And you failed to adress the other merits of Davos, I'm sure by accident. 

Daovs is absolutely qualified to be hand, show me where he gave Stannis bad advice. How was he not qualified to be lord of rainwood, have there ever be complaints from there? Please quote them. 

I doubt you got yourself some AGOT and ACOK because it was pretty obvious how there were Lannister redcoats everywhere in the castle. In case you didn't notice, they also have a lot more money and ressources than Stannis had. You also failed to respond to Cersei's own assestment that the meddling of Eddard made her kill Robert sooner, which proves my point that Stannis decision to leave kings landing after Arryns death rather than stay and meddle would prolong Roberts live. Was that him actively assisting Robert? That's not the point. You say he left him to die and so far failed to provide the evidence to back your statement up.

 

Man, you say my argument falls flat when all you have is weaksauce excuses that don't amount to a hill of beans.

You got squat to show Stannis is genuinely meritocratic and you're hiding away from facing up to that.  He promotes Davos because he likes him not because Davos has a clue how to be an admiral or a Lord.  Does Davos have any experience of receiving oaths of fealty or dispensing justice?  Does he even know how this stuff works?  Of course Lord's just an empty title as Stannis has no lands to give him.  Can he organise and lead a fleet in battle?  Does he even know what duties are expected of a Hand who speaks with the King's voice?  No of course not but he is only appointed to do what Stannis tells him to, something he was doing just fine before his "meritocratic"  elevation. 

Schools on Dragonstone an unreasonably high standard?  Look, you are the one arguing he is meritocratic so you might think there is something to back up your assertion other than a bromance.  I give you an example of what he might do if he was genuinely meritocratic but you know he's not so you flare up rather than offering anything to back up your contention.

Suggs, Massy, Horpe?  Yeah, these were among the poor sods who were unlucky enough to be evacuated after the battle of the Blackwater.  The lucky ones were captured and bent the knee to Joffrey.  The ones with Stannis are attainted and disposessed, they have no other choice left except to back this horse and hope for the best.  They're really just another Golden Company in the making hoping Stannis can grant them new lands in the North or somehow return them to posession of their lands in the south.  You didn't miss the bit where Stannis wanted to grant castles and lands along the Wall to his knights to keep them loyal?  Or did you miss the bit where Stannis sent Massey on a certain mission and Massey started haggling for his reward?  Stannis doesn't trust these guys, he uses them like he uses everyone else.

Oh I mentioned Davos's merits alright but they are smuggling, sailing and taking orders, not the stuff of Handship.  Its a shame you are so determined to defend Stannis at all costs you have to make Davos out to be someone he's not.  Good advice?  Random taxi drivers give good advice.  So does my Mum.  This doesn't qualify them to play the part of king in his absence.

Sure, I got me some AGOT and ACOK.  Sullen even referenced the part earlier for you when Stannis's disappearance was a cause of concern to Cersei because it led her to suspect that he knew and they would have to off Robert sooner.  Still you argue that the best and only thing Stannis could have done to prolong Robert's life was run away rather than doing anything.  Get real.  Cersei has a Lannister guard but Robert has all the resources of the Crown.  You make it sound like Robert and Stannis are hostages under Cersei's thumb.  Nothing is further from the truth: Robert can squash them like a bug if he only knows there is a potential threat - and I doubt those guardsmen would be keen on a coup d'etat in the middle of KL anyway.  But he doesn't know there is a threat thanks to Stannis who made damn sure of that.  Indifference, negligence, resentment, abandonment: take your pick but he sure as hell wasn't lifting a finger to help Robert.

" You say he left him to die and so far failed to provide the evidence to back your statement up ".  I don't know whether to laugh here or give you a gentle pat on the back.  Stannis left KL without warning Robert of any danger.  Robert died without Stannis lifting a finger to help.  That should do it, no?

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

No, you tried to paint him as especially nepotistic while he is indeed one of the more meritocratic kings in Westeros. He has a stronger tendency to nepotism than Joff and Tommen? What books did you read?

Stannis: Imry (admiral for one journy), Axell (Castellan, not that important a title) and Alester (hand, later burned at the stake for treason, you'd think a nepotistic decision would have been to send him to the Wall or some other lighter punishment like the crown had planned for Tyrion)

And then there are Davos, minor knights and lords, one of them even a bastard, and the foreign priestess, who all have at least as much, if not more power than the Florents at court. 

Joff/Tommen: Tywin (hand), Kevan (master of justice, offered position of hand,  later regent) Tyrion (Master of Coin), Cersei (regent), Jaime (lc of the kingsguard, offered the position of hand), Mace Tyrell (Master of ships, later hand), Loras (kingsguard), Garth the Gross (master of coin if Cersei hadn't changed the deal because of her paraonia). Also Lancel Lannister getting Darry and Genna Lannister's husband getting Riverrun by royal decree. Meanwhile, Littlefinger and Varys, who only have been at the council under Joffs rule for two books, were remnants of Roberts reign. Wow, that's a long list.

If you actually step back a minute what you posted shows Stannis to be no different to any other Lord: his in-laws get the plum jobs and birth / station is what determines appointment not merit.  Davos is the exception that proves the rule not the shining triumph of Stannis's progressive philosophy.

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If you actually step back a minute what you posted shows Stannis to be no different to any other Lord: his in-laws get the plum jobs and birth / station is what determines appointment not merit.  Davos is the exception that proves the rule not the shining triumph of Stannis's progressive philosophy.

If you actually step back a minute and read what I wrote you'll see that the Florents don't hold the majority of the influence at Stannis court, and unless you want to suggest Suggs, Horpe, Massey, Rolland Storm, Davos, Melisandre all got their positions because of their birth, sure, it's only the exception. 

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

Man, you say my argument falls flat when all you have is weaksauce excuses that don't amount to a hill of beans.

You got squat to show Stannis is genuinely meritocratic and you're hiding away from facing up to that.  He promotes Davos because he likes him not because Davos has a clue how to be an admiral or a Lord.  Does Davos have any experience of receiving oaths of fealty or dispensing justice?  Does he even know how this stuff works?  Of course Lord's just an empty title as Stannis has no lands to give him.  Can he organise and lead a fleet in battle?  Does he even know what duties are expected of a Hand who speaks with the King's voice?  No of course not but he is only appointed to do what Stannis tells him to, something he was doing just fine before his "meritocratic"  elevation. 

Schools on Dragonstone an unreasonably high standard?  Look, you are the one arguing he is meritocratic so you might think there is something to back up your assertion other than a bromance.  I give you an example of what he might do if he was genuinely meritocratic but you know he's not so you flare up rather than offering anything to back up your contention.

Suggs, Massy, Horpe?  Yeah, these were among the poor sods who were unlucky enough to be evacuated after the battle of the Blackwater.  The lucky ones were captured and bent the knee to Joffrey.  The ones with Stannis are attainted and disposessed, they have no other choice left except to back this horse and hope for the best.  They're really just another Golden Company in the making hoping Stannis can grant them new lands in the North or somehow return them to posession of their lands in the south.  You didn't miss the bit where Stannis wanted to grant castles and lands along the Wall to his knights to keep them loyal?  Or did you miss the bit where Stannis sent Massey on a certain mission and Massey started haggling for his reward?  Stannis doesn't trust these guys, he uses them like he uses everyone else.

Oh I mentioned Davos's merits alright but they are smuggling, sailing and taking orders, not the stuff of Handship.  Its a shame you are so determined to defend Stannis at all costs you have to make Davos out to be someone he's not.  Good advice?  Random taxi drivers give good advice.  So does my Mum.  This doesn't qualify them to play the part of king in his absence.

Sure, I got me some AGOT and ACOK.  Sullen even referenced the part earlier for you when Stannis's disappearance was a cause of concern to Cersei because it led her to suspect that he knew and they would have to off Robert sooner.  Still you argue that the best and only thing Stannis could have done to prolong Robert's life was run away rather than doing anything.  Get real.  Cersei has a Lannister guard but Robert has all the resources of the Crown.  You make it sound like Robert and Stannis are hostages under Cersei's thumb.  Nothing is further from the truth: Robert can squash them like a bug if he only knows there is a potential threat - and I doubt those guardsmen would be keen on a coup d'etat in the middle of KL anyway.  But he doesn't know there is a threat thanks to Stannis who made damn sure of that.  Indifference, negligence, resentment, abandonment: take your pick but he sure as hell wasn't lifting a finger to help Robert.

" You say he left him to die and so far failed to provide the evidence to back your statement up ".  I don't know whether to laugh here or give you a gentle pat on the back.  Stannis left KL without warning Robert of any danger.  Robert died without Stannis lifting a finger to help.  That should do it, no?

Hiding away? Read what I wrote. 

If it's just an empty title, why do you complain that he's not the right person to rule lands? Why would Stannis not show Davos how to do the oahts stuff?

Davos would have made a better admiral than most people, your argument falls flat again. 

Yes, he knows what duties are expected from a hand, reading his pov chapters helps. 

Sure, Stannis sends him on an important mission, but doesn't trust him. He doesn't promise him the reward and expects him to fight for his daughters claim should he die, but doesn't trust him at all. Of course. You're really grasping at straws now. 

Quote

Sire, might I speak freely?"
"So long as you speak quickly."
"Your Grace should go to Braavos with the banker."
"Is that your counsel? That I should flee?" The king's face darkened. "That was your counsel on the Blackwater as well, as I recall. When the battle turned against us, I let you and Horpe chivvy me back to Dragonstone like a whipped cur."

"The day was lost, Your Grace."
"Aye, that was what you said. 'The day is lost, sire. Fall back now, that you may fight again.' And now you would have me scamper off across the narrow sea... "

Obviously those knights on Stannis side only were unlucky enough to be rescued. That's why he suggested Stannis should flee, because he didn't want to be rescued, but rather wanted to bend the knee. Again grasping at straws?

Sure, Davos giving good advice isn't a point in favor of the kings chief advisor. Could your mom negotiate a deal with lord Manderly to secure his allegiance? Could your mom win over lord Sunderland? I think not. 

So you believe Robert would believe Stannis and immediatly start attacking Cersei? Very unlikely. Could you quote that part Sullen referenced, because I don't remember it from reading the books and he ignored actual quotes before. And you still didn't adress my quote from AFFC, probably hiding away from that.

[the trees have eyes]

On 11/06/2016 at 5:33 PM, John Doe said:

If you actually step back a minute and read what I wrote you'll see that the Florents don't hold the majority of the influence at Stannis court, and unless you want to suggest Suggs, Horpe, Massey, Rolland Storm, Davos, Melisandre all got their positions because of their birth, sure, it's only the exception. 

Hiding away? Read what I wrote. 

If it's just an empty title, why do you complain that he's not the right person to rule lands? Why would Stannis not show Davos how to do the oahts stuff?

Davos would have made a better admiral than most people, your argument falls flat again. 

Yes, he knows what duties are expected from a hand, reading his pov chapters helps. 

Sure, Stannis sends him on an important mission, but doesn't trust him. He doesn't promise him the reward and expects him to fight for his daughters claim should he die, but doesn't trust him at all. Of course. You're really grasping at straws now. 

Obviously those knights on Stannis side only were unlucky enough to be rescued. That's why he suggested Stannis should flee, because he didn't want to be rescued, but rather wanted to bend the knee. Again grasping at straws?

Sure, Davos giving good advice isn't a point in favor of the kings chief advisor. Could your mom negotiate a deal with lord Manderly to secure his allegiance? Could your mom win over lord Sunderland? I think not. 

So you believe Robert would believe Stannis and immediatly start attacking Cersei? Very unlikely. Could you quote that part Sullen referenced, because I don't remember it from reading the books and he ignored actual quotes before. And you still didn't adress my quote from AFFC, probably hiding away from that.

You didn't step back a minute.  All three Florents you mentioned have plum jobs. Stannis rewards his in-laws like any other lord.  I'll say it again: he is no different to any other lord.  So he has other people in his service besides Florents?  That's not even a point.  Every Lord has people in their service outside their family circle.  What you wrote does not support what you assert and that is crystal clear.  You're just way too invested in the myth of Stannis.

Lord of the Rainwood is an empty honorific due to Stannis having nothing to give him, yes.  But is is one of the three positions Stannis grants him that he has no experience or qualifications for.  Davos would have made a better admiral than most people?  For crying out loud.  "Most people" aren't promoted to admiral at all. "Most people" aren't promoted to admiral without any training in naval warfare, tactics, or ever having commanded more than a smuggler's vessel or one galley.  You have no argument so it can't fall flat I suppose, just a stubborn insistence that Stannis is some incredible visionary and Davos a hidden polymath rather than a loyal but limited servant.

Davos would not know what to do in Stannis's absence other than obey the commands given to him.  Compare with Ned who is perfectly in his area of expertise and competence making big decisions and exercising leadership, i.e. ruling in Robert's place.  Davos is with the children learning to read.  You should try the POVs you mention yourself.

You agree he doesn't trust Massey?  Super.  I'll remind you that you brought Massey up as an example of a man Stannis could trust when I said Davos is Hand because he is the only one Stannis can trust.  And you accuse me of grasping at straws?  LOL.  Make your mind up.

Yes, unlucky enough to be rescued as he is now attainted and dispossessed of his lands.  Unlike the lucky guys who were captured and after bending the knee were confirmed in their lands and titles.  Or why do you think Massey is asking for so much now?  Hint, dude: it's to replace what he lost.  It's a shame that a perfectly valid point that doesn't support your love for Stannis doesn't get through but love is blind and deaf I suppose.

Davos got thrown in a dungeon by Manderly and Manderly presents him with terms which he can take or leave.  It's not a negotiation, it's a gift.  Sunderland hedges his bets, not particulary surprising and not a great reason to champion Davos as the ideal Hand.  Any envoy could have done this (as long as its a verbal agreement not a written one, because, you know, Davos can't read whatever might be put to paper).  Or did he somewhere rule the "kingdom" in Stannis's name that I somehow missed?  No?  Well, that's a pity for your insistence that Davos is an inspired yet somehow obvious choice.

I believe Stannis had a responsibility to tell Robert and to assist him however uncomfortable that might have been for him.  You are the one making Cersei out to be a powerbroker in KL who Stannis fears and can't possibly stand up to.  She has no power at all compared with the Officers of State and Stannis could and should have warned Robert.

Your quote from AFFC shows that Cersei feared Ned would get to the bottom of things in KL, yes.  And he did.  However, unless you consider both Stannis and Robert to be helpless infants before Cersei's omnipotence then it in no way exonerates Stannis from not telling Robert of the potential danger or changes the fact that Stannis fiddling on Dragonstone while Cersei hatched her plots and Robert died is execrable conduct.  If only he had bothered to warn them they might have lived but you insist he prolonged their lives.  Dafuq?

[Lord Varys]

Actually, Stannis only really turns towards Davos when he is out of options. In ACoK he uses him as an envoy and then as a guy who spreads the tale about Cersei. After his return to Stannis he is kept at arm's length until Stannis needs him for the Penrose maneuver. Only after Stannis has lost pretty much everything and has (for an as of yet unknown reason) decided not to burn Davos alive for his attempt/intention to murder Melisandre does he rise to great office. But at this point this is an empty honor.

If Stannis had made Davos a lord and his Hand before the Blackwater we could say he did anything special. Prince Aegon made Duck one of his Kingsguard long before his campaign gained momentum (if it ever does). That's a sign of trust that really means something. But Stannis turning to Davos when he no longer has many other options is sort of stale.

I'm not saying Stannis didn't make a great decision when he listened to Davos and allowed himself to scolded on a king's duties about protecting the Realm. Stannis' greatest moment definitely is when he heeds Davos' advice and goes north to fight the wildlings and the Others.

But he only does this because he is out of options, basically. He would never have done that had Aemon's letter reached him on the day before the Blackwater.

[DMC]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, Stannis only really turns towards Davos when he is out of options. In ACoK he uses him as an envoy and then as a guy who spreads the tale about Cersei. After his return to Stannis he is kept at arm's length until Stannis needs him for the Penrose maneuver. Only after Stannis has lost pretty much everything and has (for an as of yet unknown reason) decided not to burn Davos alive for his attempt/intention to murder Melisandre does he rise to great office. But at this point this is an empty honor.

Yep.  Although to be fair, all of his lords seem to either loathe Davos, have no respect for him, and for most, both.  Especially after much he inherits much of Renly's power, it seems prudent to keep Davos at arms-length.  Of course, this makes one wonder why he sent him as an envoy in the first place.

I would note for some of the discussion above that Stannis certainly did grant Davos some "choice" lands on Cape Wrath.  Salladhor offers to take him back there to see his family after the Blackwater.

[TDoog]

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