It really sucks to be Stannis

[LordPathera]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Greyjoy Rebellion came after Robert had already given away Dragonstone and Storm's End.

And what moral obligation? He made his brother one of the most powerful Lords in Westeros.

He gave Stannis a relatively barren fiefdom in the middle of the ocean. COK mentions that Stannis was barely able to cobble together 5000 men between all of the lords of the Narrow Sea and mercenaries before he went to Storm's End. The only benefit that came with Dragonstone was Stannis' massive fleet, but that could easily have come with the territory of being Master of Ships rather than from being lord of Dragonstone.

Yeah, I don't blame Stannis for feeling snuffed. Robert had no reason not to grant him Storm's End other than that he didn't want to and Stannis hasn't given Robert a reason not to be granted Storm's End.

[Winter's Cold]

22 minutes ago, Stag_legion said:

Of course there was no legal obligation for Robert to give Stannis Storm's end, but there was a moral debt. Stannis held the castle at all costs and he indirectly helped Robert win the war. That not even mentioning Stannis' achievement in Greyjoy rebellion.

What is impressive about holding a castle that has never taken by siege or storm?

The Tyrells could have easily had half of their army siege the castle while the other half joined the royal army. We know that they have the troop numbers to do this effectively. However, they didn't do this for the same reason that they did not pursue Robert after the battle of Ashford. They were not fully committed to the crown because they had no ties with the Iron Throne.

When winning the war meant that their daughter would be Queen, they routed both the Stormlands army and the Northern army with the aid of the Lannisters. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

He gave Stannis a relatively barren fiefdom in the middle of the ocean.

Hardly barren, it is an important trade hub that was good enough for the Targarynes for a 100 years. The Velaryons were able to become as rich as the Lannisters and Hightowers through one of the islands that now owes its fealty to Stannis.

Dragonstone had been the westernmost outpost of Valyrian power for two centuries. Its location athwart the Gullet gave its lords a stranglehold on Blackwater Bay, and enabled both the Targaryens and their close allies, the Velaryons of Driftmark (a lesser house of Valyrian descent), to fill their coffers off the passing trade.

Stannis and his descendants could have, if managed right, been amongst the wealthiest Lords in Westeros. Rhaegar was suspected of using his incomes from Dragonstone to fund the Tourney of Harrenhal, it is quite clear that the income of those islands is quite considerable.

3 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

COK mentions that Stannis was barely able to cobble together 5000 men between all of the lords of the Narrow Sea and mercenaries before he went to Storm's End.

Yes, 5,000 soldiers.

GRRM also mentions that the Royal Navy is comparable to both the Ironborn and Redwyne fleet.

Militarily wise he became just as powerful as Renly, perhaps stronger. But his forces were more naval than land force.

It is also important to remember that had their Lordships been switched Stannis would still be in a similar position as it was the Reach armies that made Renly powerful, not the Stormlords.

3 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

The only benefit that came with Dragonstone was Stannis' massive fleet, but that could easily have come with the territory of being Master of Ships rather than from being lord of Dragonstone.

The Royal Navy is largely made up from the Lords of the Narrow Sea Islands, who owe him fealty.

It makes far more sense that if Stannis was to be the Master of Ships that he be given Dragonstone rather than the Stormlands.

3 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

Yeah, I don't blame Stannis for feeling snuffed. Robert had no reason not to grant him Storm's End other than that he didn't want to and Stannis hasn't given Robert a reason not to be granted Storm's End.

 

He had plenty of reasons. The main one was that Robert wanted to improve relations between the Crown and the Storm and Reach lords.

At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. 'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends.

 

Renly was better suited to do that than Stannis was.

[Winter's Cold]

6 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

He gave Stannis a relatively barren fiefdom in the middle of the ocean. COK mentions that Stannis was barely able to cobble together 5000 men between all of the lords of the Narrow Sea and mercenaries before he went to Storm's End. The only benefit that came with Dragonstone was Stannis' massive fleet, but that could easily have come with the territory of being Master of Ships rather than from being lord of Dragonstone.

Yeah, I don't blame Stannis for feeling snuffed. Robert had no reason not to grant him Storm's End other than that he didn't want to and Stannis hasn't given Robert a reason not to be granted Storm's End.

Storm's End is not a great place to host a fleet due to its constant storms and the area called Shipbreaker's bay. That's why the Masters of Ships have traditionally been members of House Velaryon who occupy an island in Blackwater Bay. Thus it makes sense that Stannis who Robert intended to serve as Master of Ships would also receive an island in Blackwater Bay.

Once Stannis is given Dragonstone, it makes sense to give Renly's Storm's End so that it remains in Baratheon hands. Stannis also advocated for punishing the Reach and Dorne after the war, thus Renly would also be a better fit for establing peaceful relations with those regions. 

Stannis is weaker than any Lord Paramount in a civil war scenario but he has considerably more influence than areas like the Iron Islands, the Stormlands and Dorne in an united Westeros. He is the man who commands the entire Westerosi fleet. This means that he will receive credit for any naval victories while other Lord Paramounts will have to join their armies with the King's. Thus any land victories will be credited chiefly to the King. Thus Stannis was the Lord in the best position to obtain glory in an united Westeros.

[Minsc]

44 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 Stannis hasn't given Robert a reason not to be granted Storm's End.

How do we know that? I would say Stannis's utterly obnoxious personality could count as a reason.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if that just right before Robert was going to hand out his rewards that make note of telling Robert about how he thought about supporting Aerys and that he owes him for not doing that.

[Humble Maester]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You can buy his self-preservation story - Catelyn didn't. She saw through his facade at Bitterbridge. The man abandoned Ned to his enemies.

What we know from the books is that Cersei was planning to kill Renly and Stannis. We also know that Renly was initially trying to depose Cersei from her position as Queen, while Robert would had remained in power (the Margaery plot). When Cersei managed to get Robert kill Renly's next plan was offering an alliance with Ned in taking over the governance, taking control of the royal children and getting rid of Cersei's influence, an offer Ned unwisely declined. And only then did Renly go on with the whole coronation plot, as that was his last straw in taking down Cersei, who I once again repeat, did state in her PoV that she was planning to kill Renly.

The self-preservation story seems the most logical one, though it is of course possible Renly had secondary motivations, he would had after all made a fabulous king, at least in his own mind.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

What we know from the books is that Cersei was planning to kill Renly and Stannis. We also know that Renly was initially trying to depose Cersei from her position as Queen, while Robert would had remained in power (the Margaery plot).

We don't know that, actually. We know that Cersei wanted 'to deal' with Stannis and Renly before she intended to kill Robert but whether that would have meant murder, too, or just, say, some sort of the disgrace (i.e. exile, the Wall, them being attainted etc.) we actually do not know.

So lets not pretend we do know.

We also don't know any details about the original Margaery plan. What did Renly intend to do with and to Cersei and her children had the Margaery scenario worked? Somehow I think that this could only have worked to his satisfaction if Cersei and her children had been removed from the equation permanently. The West never would have suffered Cersei being set aside or her children being disinherited.

And one wonders to whom Renly would have been loyal to after Robert had married and fathered a child on Margaery - to his brother or to Loras' nephew? We don't know that, either.

Renly offered Ned to assist him in an unlawful coup d'etat. This was treason. One can construe it as 'well-intentioned treason' or 'treason Ned Stark should have gone along with for self-preservation reasons' but it was still treason.

And, again, we don't know what Renly thought. Is it possible that he only intended to help install Ned as the Lord Regent while Robert lay dying in his chamber? Sure. But it is also possible that he was already preparing to seize the crown himself as he later did? Yes, that's possible, too. If Renly had been in control of Cersei and her children he could easily have killed them - and Ned, too, had the man proved to be troublesome - and then the Red Keep and the capital would have been his.

Keep in mind that Renly must have known how weak Ned's own power base was at that time. If he could have given Ned those hundred swords he promised him then those men would have been Renly's, not Ned's. And the City Watch doesn't enter into the equation in this scenario because the coup happens only in the castle itself. The people in the city would have been forced to go along with whatever story Renly (or whoever else ended up in charge later on) would announce about the fate of the king and his family.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And, again, we don't know what Renly thought. Is it possible that he only intended to help install Ned as the Lord Regent while Robert lay dying in his chamber? Sure. But it is also possible that he was already preparing to seize the crown himself as he later did? Yes, that's possible, too. If Renly had been in control of Cersei and her children he could easily have killed them - and Ned, too, had the man proved to be troublesome - and then the Red Keep and the capital would have been his.

While I agree we don't know Renly's ultimate intentions when offering Ned his hundred swords, this seems way off base.  By seizing Cersei's children he's only creating one enemy.  By declaring himself King - which would presumably necessitate killing/imprisoning Ned - he would be creating three enemies (including Stannis).  Now sure, he's a cocky son of a bitch and eventually musters a damn big army.  But even assuming he can count on the latter in such a scenario, that's just bad politics.  And Renly is first and foremost a politician that wants to be loved.

[Humble Maester]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know that, actually. We know that Cersei wanted 'to deal' with Stannis and Renly before she intended to kill Robert but whether that would have meant murder, too, or just, say, some sort of the disgrace (i.e. exile, the Wall, them being attainted etc.) we actually do not know.

So lets not pretend we do know.

It is in the end fairly irrelevant whether her plan was to kill them, or to have them exiled or sent to wall etc. The point is, she was clearly gunning for the younger Baratheon brothers, and thus to it was pertinent for Renly to try to counter-act her, if we assume he was at least somewhat aware of what Cersei was up to.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We also don't know any details about the original Margaery plan. What did Renly intend to do with and to Cersei and her children had the Margaery scenario worked? Somehow I think that this could only have worked to his satisfaction if Cersei and her children had been removed from the equation permanently. The West never would have suffered Cersei being set aside or her children being disinherited.

And one wonders to whom Renly would have been loyal to after Robert had married and fathered a child on Margaery - to his brother or to Loras' nephew? We don't know that, either.

The Margaery plot was completely bonkers if you ask me but that doesn't really matter for the conversation we are in. If we assume that Renly was sincerely trying to replace Cersei with Margaery, that's fine enough. It would mean that his plan initially was to get rid of Cersei's influence, not to cease power himself.

And indeed we don't know anything about that scenario that didn't happen. Well observed.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly offered Ned to assist him in an unlawful coup d'etat. This was treason. One can construe it as 'well-intentioned treason' or 'treason Ned Stark should have gone along with for self-preservation reasons' but it was still treason.

Once again, as I believe we are discussing the self-preservation point of view, it is fairly irrelevant whether it was treason or not. The point is, once again, that Renly was willing to work with someone else (ie. not being power-hungry for himself) to "get Joffrey away from his mother". Once again Cersei is the threat that Renly emphasizes.

This still sits well with the whole "Renly did what he did because he felt threatened by Cersei" hypothesis.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And, again, we don't know what Renly thought. Is it possible that he only intended to help install Ned as the Lord Regent while Robert lay dying in his chamber? Sure. But it is also possible that he was already preparing to seize the crown himself as he later did? Yes, that's possible, too. If Renly had been in control of Cersei and her children he could easily have killed them - and Ned, too, had the man proved to be troublesome - and then the Red Keep and the capital would have been his.

Well all we know is that Renly offered his men to help make Joffrey Ned's ward and confirm his position as Lord Protector. Everything else is conjecture. Though I'd like to see the scenario where Renly first helps Ned take all reigns of control and then somehow disposes him, wouldn't it had been easier to just take power by himself at this point? It's not as if Ned is some huge power on his own in King's Landing that Renly absolutely required for his devious plans of taking power.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep in mind that Renly must have known how weak Ned's own power base was at that time. If he could have given Ned those hundred swords he promised him then those men would have been Renly's, not Ned's. And the City Watch doesn't enter into the equation in this scenario because the coup happens only in the castle itself. The people in the city would have been forced to go along with whatever story Renly (or whoever else ended up in charge later on) would announce about the fate of the king and his family.

I guess I can just repeat, why include Ned at all in his coup, if he could pretty much just do it himself? And once again, this is just conjecture that I don't really see based on the books at all. It would make sense if Renly's plot had gone in reverse order I guess (first making himself king, then offering help to Ned and then Margaery plot). But I think its completely obvious that Renly was ramping up his own involvement and "power play" in the plots as the situation was turning grimmer and grimmer for him.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

While I agree we don't know Renly's ultimate intentions when offering Ned his hundred swords, this seems way off base.  By seizing Cersei's children he's only creating one enemy.  By declaring himself King - which would presumably necessitate killing/imprisoning Ned - he would be creating three enemies (including Stannis).  Now sure, he's a cocky son of a bitch and eventually musters a damn big army.  But even assuming he can count on the latter in such a scenario, that's just bad politics

I'm not saying he has to kill them at once. And he doesn't have to kill Ned at all. He can just depose and arrest him, and use him as hostage against the Starks.

A King Renly in the capital would soon have all the trappings of power the pretender Renly in the field lacked. The Red Keep and the Iron Throne. That could have actually worked much better than his later campaign. Loras would have brought him the Tyrells and he already had the Stormlands.

And I'm not talking about any public executions. Just about the disappearance of 'the princes in the tower'. What worked for Richard III (at least sort of) could have worked for Renly, too. Especially if Ned had given him the knowledge to proclaim Cersei's children bastards. Renly certainly wouldn't have gone along with Ned's plan to crown Stannis.

@Humble Maester

There is no evidence to suggest that Renly was aware of any plans or evil intentions Cersei had against him. We know that Cersei wanted to deal with him but actually never did, and we don't have a clue if Renly was aware of any of that. But we also do know that Renly wanted to replace Cersei with Margaery which makes him look much worse than Cersei in my book.

We have no clue why the hell Cersei and Renly didn't get along. But I don't buy the idea that Renly was some sort of innocent guy there and Cersei just hated him for no reason. There must have been reasons - reasons on both sides. But we don't know anything about that.

I really don't get the self-preservation thing. If Renly had supported Joffrey and Cersei wholeheartedly neither would have had any reason to see him as a threat. Hell, if he had actually befriended Joff and Cersei rather than mocking Joff in public then there might have been no reason for this 'self-preservation' thing.

And the best/only reason for Renly to antagonize the family of his brother would be that he thought he would be a better king. He always thought he would. 

If Renly hadn't intended to seize the crown for himself one should expect he would have contacted Stannis after Ned rejected his offer. But he did nothing of this sort. Stannis surely could have helped him in his 'self-preservation' project.

[Humble Maester]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@Humble Maester

There is no evidence to suggest that Renly was aware of any plans or evil intentions Cersei had against him. We know that Cersei wanted to deal with him but actually never did, and we don't have a clue if Renly was aware of any of that. But we also do know that Renly wanted to replace Cersei with Margaery which makes him look much worse than Cersei in my book.

We have no clue why the hell Cersei and Renly didn't get along. But I don't buy the idea that Renly was some sort of innocent guy there and Cersei just hated him for no reason. There must have been reasons - reasons on both sides. But we don't know anything about that.

I really don't get the self-preservation thing. If Renly had supported Joffrey and Cersei wholeheartedly neither would have had any reason to see him as a threat. Hell, if he had actually befriended Joff and Cersei rather than mocking Joff in public then there might have been no reason for this 'self-preservation' thing.

And the best/only reason for Renly to antagonize the family of his brother would be that he thought he would be a better king. He always thought he would. 

If Renly hadn't intended to seize the crown for himself one should expect he would have contacted Stannis after Ned rejected his offer. But he did nothing of this sort. Stannis surely could have helped him in his 'self-preservation' project.

I believe we will have to settle with the traditional "agree to disagree". Personally I think every action of Renly's fits perfectly if we assume that he considered Cersei a threat, and then acted in various ways to neutralize that threat, with him ramping up his involvement as the threat grew more dire (from replacing to deposing to rebellion).

I do admit that it takes "two to tango", so it's very possible that the animosity Cersei felt towards Renly was in one way or another caused by Renly, though it might as well been only that he had too much power in the court. Or maybe he called Cersei fat. Who knows, we don't at the very least.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

I believe we will have to settle with the traditional "agree to disagree". Personally I think every action of Renly's fits perfectly if we assume that he considered Cersei a threat, and then acted in various ways to neutralize that threat, with him ramping up his involvement as the threat grew more dire (from replacing to deposing to rebellion).

I do admit that it takes "two to tango", so it's very possible that the animosity Cersei felt towards Renly was in one way or another caused by Renly, though it might as well been only that he had too much power in the court. Or maybe he called Cersei fat. Who knows, we don't at the very least.

You have to keep in mind that Renly was still a young man at this time. Cersei lived at court for over a decade when the series began, but Renly certainly wasn't the Master of Laws for all this time. He would have come to court only very recently, and there would have been little reason for Cersei to antagonize such an upstart for no reason. She knew how to make friends, after all.

One assumes she and Renly didn't get along because their ambitions clashed. Cersei realized that Renly was a danger to her and her children and Renly might have realized that Cersei's children were an obstacle to his ultimate desire (or that of the Tyrells).

Renly's cockiness and arrogance/narcissism in AGoT pretty much shows that he must have been raised as the golden boy of Storm's End. He saw himself as a better version of the young Robert, and Robert took the crown by force...

[Humble Maester]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You have to keep in mind that Renly was still a young man at this time. Cersei lived at court for over a decade when the series began, but Renly certainly wasn't the Master of Laws for all this time. He would have come to court only very recently, and there would have been little reason for Cersei to antagonize such an upstart for no reason. She knew how to make friends, after all.

One assumes she and Renly didn't get along because their ambitions clashed. Cersei realized that Renly was a danger to her and her children and Renly might have realized that Cersei's children were an obstacle to his ultimate desire (or that of the Tyrells).

Renly's cockiness and arrogance/narcissism in AGoT pretty much shows that he must have been raised as the golden boy of Storm's End. He saw himself as a better version of the young Robert, and Robert took the crown by force...

That assumption only works out if you assume Renly had ambitions for greater power than he already had. Personally I don't assume that, as I see no indication of it in the actual series. As we have completely different assumptions of Renly's character I do not think we can really find any middle ground on this.

If I wanted to imagine a scenario for the Cersei-Renly split that was compatible with my view, one such scenario could be that when Renly came to the court he was what you described in the end of your post, a cocky young man of significant power who appeared a lot like how Robert once was when he took the crown. This could had lead to Cersei feeling threatened that this "lite" version of Robert was after her and her children's positions, no matter if it wasn't true. We know Cersei doesn't always think everything through rationally (see: cuckolding the king, pretty much everything after AGOT).

My version of the events isn't any more factual than yours but unless GRRM actually tells us more, we can't really say why Cersei wanted to get rid of Renly and vice versa. Sticking to the books I am going to hold onto the "self-preservation" hypothesis unless there is an actual argument made from the books to convince me otherwise.

[DMC]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying he has to kill them at once. And he doesn't have to kill Ned at all. He can just depose and arrest him, and use him as hostage against the Starks.

A King Renly in the capital would soon have all the trappings of power the pretender Renly in the field lacked. The Red Keep and the Iron Throne. That could have actually worked much better than his later campaign. Loras would have brought him the Tyrells and he already had the Stormlands.

And I'm not talking about any public executions. Just about the disappearance of 'the princes in the tower'. What worked for Richard III (at least sort of) could have worked for Renly, too. Especially if Ned had given him the knowledge to proclaim Cersei's children bastards. Renly certainly wouldn't have gone along with Ned's plan to crown Stannis.

Yeah my point is he would have to pretty much immediately imprison Ned, particularly in this scenario where his only advantage is the 100 swords versus Ned's depleted household guard within the Red Keep (of course, LF is a wildcard here).  Thus he'd effectively be taking the place of Cersei in the eyes of the Starks, and Robb would be marching on Renly instead of the Lannisters, no?

But yeah, Renly certainly wouldn't have offered Ned those swords if he knew Ned planned on crowning Stannis.  But once we agree Renly did not know about the incest, I think his immediate motives become rather clear - separate Joffrey from Cersei, and try to gain influence through (a presumably grateful) Ned as Lord Protector.  Perhaps attempting to arrange the Joffrey-Margaery match.  The Richard III scenario strikes me as far too off key for a guy whose primary character trait is geniality/empty courtesy.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah my point is he would have to pretty much immediately imprison Ned, particularly in this scenario where his only advantage is the 100 swords versus Ned's depleted household guard within the Red Keep (of course, LF is a wildcard here).  Thus he'd effectively be taking the place of Cersei in the eyes of the Starks, and Robb would be marching on Renly instead of the Lannisters, no?

But yeah, Renly certainly wouldn't have offered Ned those swords if he knew Ned planned on crowning Stannis.  But once we agree Renly did not know about the incest, I think his immediate motives become rather clear - separate Joffrey from Cersei, and try to gain influence through (a presumably grateful) Ned as Lord Protector.  Perhaps attempting to arrange the Joffrey-Margaery match.  The Richard III scenario strikes me as far too off key for a guy whose primary character trait is geniality/empty courtesy.

Well, I actually think that there is a darker side to Renly. The man liked to shine and smile and all, but if we grant him that he wasn't just playing at being king he must have been prepared to put his own kin to death. And he was in the case of Stannis, we know as much. If we also admit/assume he hated/resented Cersei and Joffrey then I see no reason why he wouldn't have killed them, too, after he had taken the crown.

And I really have difficulty to see him jumping from 'Ned Stark rejected my offer' to 'I must now become king myself'. Perhaps he tricked himself into believing that he only wanted to put Cersei out of the picture. Just as Richard III might at first also have only tried to break the power of the queen's family. But this would be slippery slope, and I think Renly must have coveted the Iron Throne already at the time Robert died or else he would never have proclaimed himself king so soon. I mean, he knew that Robb Stark was on the march that there were wars in the Riverlands, etc. He could have just called his banners (and those of the Tyrells through Loras) to enforce some sort of peaceful resolution to all that.

Not to mention that he could have contacted/spoken to his elder brother about any of that. But he did neither. He just crowned himself.

Unless we get a Tyrell POV or some deep insight into Renly's thinking from another POV it is very difficult to guess what he might have been thinking or planning, and how much of his actions/ideas were his own and how much went back to Loras and/or Mace/Olenna.

[DMC]

@Lord Varys

Oh, I agree Renly certainly had a darker side than his public persona, as well as a willingness to put Joffrey (and even the other two) to death.  And sure, he coveted the throne.  I just think he was a more subtle player than the scenario you're suggesting.  Judging by the parlay with Stannis, he legitimately did intend to bring Margaery to court in an effort to get Robert to set Cersei aside.  This suggests he would have been satisfied, at least for the time being, playing a secondary role in a Ned-led (heh) regime.  More importantly, it depicts a more pragmatic and cautious character than engaging in actions that would invite the wrath of both the Lannisters and the Stark/Tully coalition with his brother menacing at his back.  In addition, I think he would have considered the possibility that Stannis may be able to pick off some of the stormlords and some of the more cautious Reach powers may not be roused if he opens a three-front conflict by the actions you're suggesting.

[Trigger Warning]

7 hours ago, LordPathera said:

He gave Stannis a relatively barren fiefdom in the middle of the ocean. COK mentions that Stannis was barely able to cobble together 5000 men between all of the lords of the Narrow Sea and mercenaries before he went to Storm's End. The only benefit that came with Dragonstone was Stannis' massive fleet, but that could easily have come with the territory of being Master of Ships rather than from being lord of Dragonstone.

Yeah, I don't blame Stannis for feeling snuffed. Robert had no reason not to grant him Storm's End other than that he didn't want to and Stannis hasn't given Robert a reason not to be granted Storm's End.

A second son becoming a lord that can raise 5000 men is a bad thing?

[John Doe]

51 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

A second son becoming a lord that can raise 5000 men is a bad thing?

Not nealry 5000. It's a bad thing if you five a third son the ancestral seat of your family which can raise ten times that number. 

[Eden-Mackenzie]

31 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Not nealry 5000. It's a bad thing if you five a third son the ancestral seat of your family which can raise ten times that number. 

Why exactly does Stannis need to be able to raise men? He's the Master of Ships, de facto Lord High Admiral or whatever equivalent you prefer, the Royal Fleet would be manned by men loyal to the crown. His castle, traditionally awarded to the King's heir, is on an island. Yes, he needs to be able to garrison the island in the event of an attack, which he seems fully capable of doing, and, with the Royal Navy at his command, any threat to Dragonstone could be readily dealt with. The only times we have seen lords raise armies is to go to war, either against each other or against the crown. As Stannis has no nebulous borders to his lands, he should have no cause to war with another lord. Which leaves the crown. Currently held by Robert. His brother. Who gave him his lands. 

[Minsc]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no clue why the hell Cersei and Renly didn't get along. But I don't buy the idea that Renly was some sort of innocent guy there and Cersei just hated him for no reason. There must have been reasons - reasons on both sides. But we don't know anything about that.

Why do Ned and Cersei not get along?  Why do Arya, Jon, Robb not get along with Joffrey?  Why doesn't Tyrion get along with them?  It isn't like Cersei and Joffrey are the most pleasant of people that people close to them generally get along with.  Heck, Renly looking like a young Robert is probably enough to sour Cersei on him.  Sure, Renly's bravado and cockiness likely doesn't help, but he isn't unique for not getting along with the two.