It really sucks to be Stannis

[StormRhage]

15 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Words like "joy" or "suck" mean little to the Mannis he is beyond the petty emotions of mortals

[Ruhail]

Alot of it comes from trying to be his own man but still living up to Robert. He always did what he thought he could to to gain Robert's attention and admiration but he was never successful because of his personality and dourness. 

Stannis didnt understand this. When he saw how close Robert and Eddard were it made him bitter that he could never be like that with Robert even thouh he was his brother. He starved for Robert over following the Law like he usually would and did al he asked but Robert was too pissed he lost V&D so he throws the barren and empty island of Dragonstone at him. Giving Renly Storm's End increasing the bitterness in him.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

15 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Stannis is one of the luckiest characters in Westeros. Born a second son his incredibly generous brother chose to give him the Lordship of Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea Islands. Islands and ports that if managed right could make him and his descendants amongst the richest and most powerful Lords in Westeros.

Not only that but he puts him on his Small Council and makes him his Master of Ships, incharge of Westeros' immense Navy. Unlike other positions on the Small Council this position is a chance for military glory that does not have to share the glory with others. Not only that but his brother allows him to keep his position on the Small Council despite taking a relaxing 9 month break leaving the governing of the realm to others like Renly.

He is incredibly lucky. Not only does his brother set him up but he gets him to marry a Florent who is prepared to actually have his children (unlike poor Robert) and his own wife is more than happy to have his Mistress around (Mel) all the time.

He also has dipshit plans like attacking a much larger army at Storm's End and somehow gets away with it, or is able to escape with his life after his poorly planned attack on King's Landing goes, unsurprisingly, tits up.  Sixteen year old,Lord Commander of the Watch, Jon Snow charitably, against his sworn vows, points out how dumb it would be to go attack the Dreadfort in enemy territory.

How this clown is still alive at this point shows just how lucky he is. Clearly the Rincewind of Westeros.

The more posts I read from you, the more I get the feeling you just make controversial statements against common fan opinion (not that it is always correct) to get to argue with people...

[Valens]

46 minutes ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

The more posts I read from you, the more I get the feeling you just make controversial statements against common fan opinion (not that it is always correct) to get to argue with people...

I agree. I think what he wrote there is as far off as anyone can be on Stannis and his fortune/luck. He is obviously a Robert-fanatic.

[Protagoras]

I think its quite funny that if Stannis had declared for Aerys, Storms end would have most likely been his today.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

17 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Words like "joy" or "suck" mean little to the Mannis he is beyond the petty emotions of mortals

Bullshit.  Stannis is plenty emotional - just repressed.  Why would anyone follow a leader who was an unfeeling robot?  Stannis cares deeply and feels the effects of insults and praise perhaps more keenly than most men.  In fact, he stews over his feelings and considers carefully their effects on his decision making. Davos sees this and so should Stannis fans.

The OP is pretty whiny.  I also don't think Stannis would agree with most of it.  For example while Stannis might want to believe that he is unloved simply due to the order of birth, that's not the case and he knows it.  Stannis' temperament is very different from Robert.  He will not suffer fools meaning he's basically a dick to a lot of people.  While I get his point and it's amusing to see him take apart such fools, a lot of being a loved and successful leader is to be respectful of others.  Robert for all his faults knew this intuitively. 

Anyway that's all to say that I don't think Stannis believes that he's the "better" man. He knows Robert was talented in ways he is not.  He feels resentful that Robert didn't choose him for hand but he knows Robert loves him no more than he loves Robert.  

[Ruhail]

13 minutes ago, Valens said:

I agree. I think what he wrote there is as far off as anyone can be on Stannis and his fortune/luck. He is obviously a Robert-fanatic.

Any thread discussing Stannis' future or his abillities are usually derailed by him fixating on his decision against Renly.

7 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think its quite funny that if Stannis had declared for Aerys, Storms end would have most likely been his today.

Thats probably true

 

2 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Bullshit.  Stannis is plenty emotional - just repressed.  Why would anyone follow a leader who was an unfeeling robot?  Stannis cares deeply and feels the effects of insults and praise perhaps more keenly than most men.  In fact, he stews over his feelings and considers carefully their effects on his decision making. Davos sees this and so should Stannis fans.

The OP is pretty whiny.  I also don't think Stannis would agree with most of it.  For example while Stannis might want to believe that he is unloved simply due to the order of birth, that's not the case and he knows it.  Stannis' temperament is very different from Robert.  He will not suffer fools meaning he's basically a dick to a lot of people.  While I get his point and it's amusing to see him take apart such fools, a lot of being a loved and successful leader is to be respectful of others.  Robert for all his faults knew this intuitively. 

Anyway that's all to say that I don't think Stannis believes that he's the "better" man. He knows Robert was talented in ways he is not.  He feels resentful that Robert didn't choose him for hand but he knows Robert loves him no more than he loves Robert.  

I agree with this.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think its quite funny that if Stannis had declared for Aerys, Storms end would have most likely been his today.

 I guess it depends on who was in the castle with him. There would have likely been other nobles, men who loved Robert, with Stannis and who might ignore Stannis' decision to sell out his brother.

Had Bran decided to declare for Joffrey while his brother was away I imagine that Rodrik would have ignored this decision. The same may have been true at Storm's End.

[Protagoras]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 I guess it depends on who was in the castle with him. There would have likely been other nobles, men who loved Robert, with Stannis and who might ignore Stannis' decision to sell out his brother.

Had Bran decided to declare for Joffrey while his brother was away I imagine that Rodrik would have ignored this decision. The same may have been true at Storm's End.

I agree, thats why I said "most likely". However, Stannis is a grown-up and given charge of the castle. I don´t think the Master-at-arms or the Castellan (if there exist one apart from him - most likely he was named Castellan himself - it seems common to name your close relatives like Colin Florent and Manfrey Martell) will have such an easy job to stop him even if he wanted to. In addition, the nobles will know that such a move will avoid the Reach from starving Storm´s end (which is expected to happen) - a fate they should be keen on avoiding.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think its quite funny that if Stannis had declared for Aerys, Storms end would have most likely been his today.

Most likely not. If Stannis had declared for Aerys II, Robert's garrison would have killed him. Stannis had no authority of his own, and most likely not the strength to pull off such a betrayal. Yielding to Mace Tyrell because he had no other choice is a different thing. But trying to betray his heroic brother by raising the Targaryen banner is pretty much out of the question.

Stannis makes a big deal out of his decision to stick with Robert but the sad truth is - he most likely didn't have much of a choice. Not to mention that he most likely despised his royal cousin the Mad King even more at this time than Robert. Remember his tale when he and Robert once visited the court with Steffon and mistook Tywin for Aerys? Later on Steffon must have introduced them to Aerys, and later on still Stannis would have seen the creature Aerys had become himself. We don't know if Stannis was at Harrenhal, but it is not unlikely at all. Even if he wasn't, there is a good chance that Steffon later took him to KL before he left for Volantis.

@A spoon of knife and fork

I think we can see Aegon-Visenya as a good parallel to Robert-Stannis. Visenya most likely originally wanted her brother-husband to love her the way he did love Rhaenys. But that didn't work out and as they aged they grew apart even more, and eventually Visenya stepped as low as murdering the son of her late sister, and helping her own son to kill Aegon's grandchildren.

Stannis most likely wanted to win the affection and recognition of his elder brother in his youth, envying him at the same time all the charisma and character traits that Robert had but he lacked. And Robert didn't make things easier for him, of course. If anyone was the butt of Robert's jokes it must have been Stannis, and insecure introvert who most likely did not excel in any of the manly arts (it is never mentioned that Stannis is a good fighter, knight, etc.). A man like Robert most likely had nothing in common with Renly. They couldn't do anything together. Just imagine Stannis tagging along when Robert went whoring to a brother (or seducing some village girls near Storm's End). It would have been a disaster.

But with the years the great Robert Baratheon transformed himself into a fat drunkard and became one of the worst and weakest king to ever sit the Iron Throne of Westeros. In those days Stannis would have begun to resent the fact that his idiotic brother was the king and not he, Stannis, who cared so much about duty, honor, and doing the right thing. And Stannis had every reason to despair sitting on a Small Council in which actually no man but Jon Arryn was actually Robert's man. In that sense the corruption during Robert's reign is really the worst in history, at least for the king himself - while things most likely were a lot worse under Aegon IV for the Kingslanders one should assume that Aegon IV's cronies were in his camp (Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle, Renly, and Stannis are were not in team Robert).

All Robert's grand character-traits are gone when we first meet him in AGoT. That man no longer inspires any loyalty, nor is he any longer a great warrior people are likely to fear. He just a disappointment. Stannis must have been both disgusted by the way his brother behaved and the fact that he himself once wanted to win the love and recognition of that man. And that most likely was what led him to abandon both Robert and Ned to their enemies. He wanted Robert to die so that he could show the world what great a king he could be.

And, of course, you cannot underestimate Stannis desire for revenge and payback. The man wants to enforce a new religion in the Realm as well as make new lords. The idea that nobody wants a King Stannis is a reality. The Tyrells have every reason to fear that a King Stannis would take Highgarden away from them to hand it to the Florents. 

[Protagoras]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most likely not. If Stannis had declared for Aerys II, Robert's garrison would have killed him. Stannis had no authority of his own, and most likely not the strength to pull off such a betrayal. Yielding to Mace Tyrell because he had no other choice is a different thing. But trying to betray his heroic brother by raising the Targaryen banner is pretty much out of the question.

For a personality like Stannis - maybe. For someone scheming enough to be able to put your people (Stannis should have those - at worst, he will need to pay for them) in key positions and strike quick and fast - not really. Look what Davos did - that should certainly be within the realm of possibility, and Davos is not even close to be on the same level as Varys or Littlefinger. The important thing here is timing of course - to declare for Aerys in a position where Robert will have a hard time to do something about it due to his necessary presence elsewhere.

Sure, it is a gamble but Stannis have succeded on gambles with far worse odds through the series.

[Lord Varys]

@Protagoras

But the Stannis we meet in the series is a seasoned man who survived the Siege of Storm's End and fought and won a major sea battle.

The Stannis during the Rebellion would have been a green boy, not a seasoned man with a reputation for insane determination. Keep in mind that Stannis is about a year younger than Robert - that makes him about 18-19 during the Rebellion. People are seldom great politicians in that age, and Stannis most certainly wouldn't have been - because he still isn't in his mid-thirties.

Although, if Aerys had been smart enough to send a raven to Storm's End naming Stannis Lord of Storm's End and his new Hand in exchange for his allegiance I'm pretty sure Stannis would have been tempted enough to accept that offer. Whether he would have been able to pull it off depends on the loyalty the garrison felt to Robert - and I think it must have been great. Stannis might have been very determined but had his men not been willing to starve for Robert's cause the castle would have yielded anyway. Stannis couldn't have stopped that. Remember how the Durrandon garrison treated Queen Argella.

But then, such a treacherous Stannis wouldn't have gotten away. Stannis' vile treason would only have motivated Robert's allies and things would have turned out as they did. Robert most likely would have pardoned his turncloak brother but he would have gotten neither Storm's End nor Dragonstone.

Which, by the way, would have been the best way to treat brothers like Stannis and Renly. Kevan doesn't have a fancy seat of himself, and he was loyal to his elder brother throughout his entire life. Stannis and Renly fancied themselves powerful lords in their own right and the Realm and House Baratheon suffered in the process.

[FrostyDornishman]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just imagine Stannis tagging along when Robert went whoring to a brother

Hey now, that's how we make Lannisters  

I'm amazed to say I'm kinda on littledragon's side for this one, at least in the sense that:

1. Dishing out Dragonstone and Storm's End was totally up to Robert.
2. It was politically expedient after RR to pick a Lord of the Stormlands that would make friends and play nice with the rest of the lords in the area (some of which had been hardcore Targ loyalists).  Renly is a better choice in this case than Stannis.
3. Stannis was still given a pretty cool seat and a spot on the Small Council for his troubles.
4. Some of Stannis's woes are because of goofy political decisions and muh honor, and he has only himself to blame for that short-sightedness.  Being driven by justice and duty is nice, but who are you gonna help if everybody can't stand you?

All that being said, he is still the Mannis among lesser men, and some of the reason Stannis doesn't get the in-world props he deserves is just because other characters are stupid.  You don't like him because he doesn't smile or play nice, really?  You live in a brutal world with death all around you, get over it.

[Maester of Valyria]

Oh dear, not another Stannis hate/love argument thread...

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, FrostyDornishman said:

Hey now, that's how we make Lannisters  

I'm amazed to say I'm kinda on littledragon's side for this one, at least in the sense that:

1. Dishing out Dragonstone and Storm's End was totally up to Robert.
2. It was politically expedient after RR to pick a Lord of the Stormlands that would make friends and play nice with the rest of the lords in the area (some of which had been hardcore Targ loyalists).  Renly is a better choice in this case than Stannis.
3. Stannis was still given a pretty cool seat and a spot on the Small Council for his troubles.
4. Some of Stannis's woes are because of goofy political decisions and muh honor, and he has only himself to blame for that short-sightedness.  Being driven by justice and duty is nice, but who are you gonna help if everybody can't stand you?

All that being said, he is still the Mannis among lesser men, and some of the reason Stannis doesn't get the in-world props he deserves is just because other characters are stupid.  You don't like him because he doesn't smile or play nice, really?  You live in a brutal world with death all around you, get over it.

Keep in mind, though, that we don't know when exactly Renly received Storm's End. We can be pretty sure that Robert named Stannis Lord of Dragonstone shortly after the Rebellion, after Stannis had taken the island, because he needed somebody he could trust to hold the island and keep the old Targaryen loyalists in line. It wouldn't do to name a Velaryon Lord of Dragonstone, after all.

There is no reason to believe that Robert granted Renly Storm's End at the same time, and Stannis might originally actually have felt honored by the grant of Dragonstone - he only felt slighted later when Robert carelessly parted with Storm's End and gave it to Renly rather than asking him first whether he, Stannis, wanted it.

Robert most likely never thought about Stannis when he decided to part with Storm's End. There is a good chance that he did so before the birth of Joffrey but we really don't know. Early in their marriage Cersei wouldn't have had much influence over Robert anyway, and what Robert did with his own seats was really his business.

Robert may not even have been at court when he did that. I could see him visiting young Renly back home in the castle of his fathers where he was brought up by Cressen and whoever else Robert had left in charge there after Stannis left for Dragonstone. Could have been one of Robert's sudden ideas - watching his younger brother playing with some friends down there in the yard, remembering how he did the same as a child, and realizing that this tradition should continue. So why not make Renly the new Lord of Storm's End? Done.

And Stannis might only have felt slighted because he had bled for that stupid castle in Robert's name and grown emotionally attached to it. Either that, or he was always considering how he could seize the throne because, you know, being Lord of Storm's End would have made him much more powerful.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

40 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Oh dear, not another Stannis hate/love argument thread...

Hey at least there is controversy now.  A few years ago it would have been 100% pro Stannis circlejerk...

[Minsc]

5 hours ago, Protagoras said:

I think its quite funny that if Stannis had declared for Aerys, Storms end would have most likely been his today.

Nah, he would mostly be a pile of ashes as Aerys burns him alive as a traitor's brother. 

[Trigger Warning]

The thing is, it's rarely Stannis love/hate. It's usually Stannis love/middle of the road response. 

Stannis' is probably my favourite character, but it seems like I'm always arguing against him because he has a personality cult that tries to put a pro Stannis spin on absolutely everything. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Stannis is an interesting character and you find yourself rooting for him because he seems to be the best guy left standing trying to punish all the real villains.

But he never was a nice guy.

He still could have been a good king if he had defeated all his enemies because he is actually pretty just. But he would have to change his religious policies. Those would have gotten him killed had he won on the Blackwater.

[Kienn]

Stannis doesn't do his duty.

 

He betrayed one King and abandoned another to die when he knew of a plot against him.

 

Stannis is just an envious traitor.