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Chareerchat II: Production of Means


Datepalm

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I ask a lot of questions about what the person did:

  • What was the last project that you had ownership of all or a part of?  Describe your role and how it intersected with other team members.
  • Describe a project that did not turn out as expected and how you handled that.
  • Describe the most meaningful contribution you made on a prior project.
  • How would you handle a scenario where your team is not working well together because of personality conflicts?  What actions would you take to make sure that the project is timely completed.

I am also usually talking to students not that far out of university.  I ALWAYS ask about their thesis, if they wrote one.  You'd be surprised how many of them can't discuss it lucidly.

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For those who are involved in recruiting, what is the point of the questions that aren't aiming to measure technical competency?  I get the point of trying to weed out the sociopaths and people who can't interact normally with other humans, but I really don't understand how the 80% of the interview questions serve any purpose, ESPECIALLY for entry level positions where you know they don't know shit and you will have to teach them how to do their job and how to work within your organization.

 

I guess I feel like there are maybe a bottom 5% who can't behave like a reasonable human being during a 30 minute conversation, as well as the 5% who are so charming and gregarious that they could sell ice to the eskimoes, but how the fuck are you meaningfully evaluating the middle 90%?

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It's actually pretty easy in a short conversation to identify flaky, entitled, bitter or big chip on shoulder, knows much less than resume claims, doesn't know what they want, lacks any self-awareness, has exaggerated sense of importance/value relative to actual contribution, has no charisma or presence or could not inspire confidence or make a strong first impression (for an external-facing role), too pompous and self-important to work with others, hasn't mastered basic non-verbal communication, too glib/shallow, rambles incoherently, is too fixated on the wrong aspect (e.g. spends 90% of the time asking about the benefits package), makes overt comments about religion or politics, and/or simply has the wrong attributes, knowledge or experience for the job. 

Job postings and resumes in response have large mutual information asymmetry. You can close a lot of that information gap very quickly.  It's the second round of deeper conversations where it becomes statistically very difficult to separate good from great without referrals.  Identifying bad fit is easy with not too many false positives. 

 

Edit: why is there a weird font variation?

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Yep, that's my experience as well. The first interview is great at winnowing the field to two or maybe three highly qualified candidates. Then the hard part comes with getting referrals and trying to assess if a given candidate is going to be excellent in the current role, and if they have promise for growth within your org or if they'll just stagnate.

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22 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

I hope you are doing better now.

Re: EMT training. I would examine closely why you had a career-ending panic attack. Because EMT training and actual job experience will involve many of the same stressors as law enforcement. Also, examine why EMT training looks appealing, because even if that ends up not being a good choice for you, you can still find another field that provides some of that without the downsides. Good luck.

I'm doing much better now, thank you.

I think you're right and I'm glad you brought it up. I want a rewarding job, one were I get satisfaction from knowing I made a difference in someone's life. The thought had occurred to me that there is a similar amount of stress and that's what has stopped me from registering for an EMT training course. There is a lot I need to think about.  

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47 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I'm doing much better now, thank you.

I think you're right and I'm glad you brought it up. I want a rewarding job, one were I get satisfaction from knowing I made a difference in someone's life. The thought had occurred to me that there is a similar amount of stress and that's what has stopped me from registering for an EMT training course. There is a lot I need to think about.  

That's a great place to start, and I think you'll be surprised at the number of ways one can make a difference in someone's life. I think one question to ask yourself is how much you can handle interfacing with a lot of people (e.g. could you deal with being a crisis counselor), or are you more inclined to do something a little more laid back? For example, right now City Harvest is looking to hire a driver. My friend used to do a similar job for Meals on Wheels and he said it was one of the most rewarding things he's ever done in his life. While that kind of job does not bring in tons of cash, it'll get you familiar with the non-profit world, and maybe a career with them or Robin Hood Foundation (or whatever cause you feel most connected to) would be a good move. Anyway, some food for thought. 

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30 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

That's a great place to start, and I think you'll be surprised at the number of ways one can make a difference in someone's life. I think one question to ask yourself is how much you can handle interfacing with a lot of people (e.g. could you deal with being a crisis counselor), or are you more inclined to do something a little more laid back? For example, right now City Harvest is looking to hire a driver. My friend used to do a similar job for Meals on Wheels and he said it was one of the most rewarding things he's ever done in his life. While that kind of job does not bring in tons of cash, it'll get you familiar with the non-profit world, and maybe a career with them or Robin Hood Foundation (or whatever cause you feel most connected to) would be a good move. Anyway, some food for thought. 

Unfortunately my level of education doesn't allow me to be a crisis counselor, teaching or social work or anything. It doesn't have to be a job that makes tons of cash, I just need enough to pay rent and meet my basic needs. Dealing with people doesn't bother me. I checked out the driver position at City Harvest but I don't have any experience driving a truck. 

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One month into my new job and I am loving it.  Yeah, yeah, it's too soon to draw long term conclusions, I know.  The first week was corporate indoctrination, which came off as a mixed bag.  The kool-aid was kinda shoved down everyone's throat and it reminded me of religion.  The grand themes were so noble.  They do monthly new hire training where everyone goes through the first week together. They had this one exercise where they put us in teams, gave us a big white sheet, and asked us to illustrate the corporate culture.  The group I was in was all a twitter, wondering how to proceed.  

I told them "Hey, just draw a tree.  You can make a tree into any metaphor you want."  I had 6 people looking at me with blank stares and I had to re-assure them that this was a sound strategy.  They drew a tree and when the time came to present our teams result, they handed me the marker and took steps back.  I gave this shite, off the cuff, tirade about how a tree needs roots, soil, this leads to leaves, fruit, and eventually the environment uses this tree as a foundation for the community.  I regurgitated the buzzwords given throughout the week.  Little did I know, the CEO of the company unexpectedly dropped in for this exercise.  He gave a presentation after this exercise where he referenced the tree shite I just made up.  I had to work to not laugh, since it was invented bullshit on my end.  

Second week was getting my equipment and training lined up.  A lot of time consuming, non productive stuff.  Third week was when I really started going.  I worked with one of my field sales team and got keys to the kingdom--materials, training resources, and a view into the pipeline of new drugs/research that is around the corner.  This week was spent with my peers and I have a roadmap of what I need to bring to this job.  It was great.  I completely clicked with them and learned incredible amounts of material. I think this is going to be a great crew to work with and I'm so enthusiastic.  

TL,DR:  Very excited about my opportunities despite transition to corporate environment. I can bring value to this team.

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14 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Just wanted to briefly share that I did end up getting the increase I mentioned in the last thread.  Asked the boss about, and it happened.  Thanks to the folks that gave feedback.

Uncertain, but it does seem like the asking might have been a necessary catalyst to get it over the line.

Bet the gat had something to do with it.

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Awesome news, Trisk and Ix!

@Ixodes Yeah, moving into a place where "culture" is important and non-ironic -- and into a role where I have a lot of interaction with the CEO -- was intensely jarring. But you've learned a really important lesson: very few people are good at thinking on their feet and have a grasp of metaphor as a storytelling device. You can use that to your advance throughout your career.

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Xray was right. (Not staggering news, I know.)

Should have walked out the door like three weeks ago at work and had it over with...instead we agreed to three months, when I actually got the letter (two weeks after that) it just so happened to be one month, so all told about 5-6 weeks earlier than we agreed, and since then the Big Boss Guy has literally not spoken to me. As in, not responding when I say hello and looking straight through me for the handful of times when I've been in the same room, including for hours on end over the course of an entire workday. It's like being in grade school. Is there a word for that in English, when kids pretend other kids don't exist? I mean, Big Boss Guy is in his 70s, owns the company, and his favorite topic of conversation is his history of aptitude for getting away with low scale corruption, and we're down to the silent treatment? Among other things, I just don't get it.

I'd flake off for whatever three weeks i've got remaining and work from home and that's that, but naturally they've piled a ridiculous amount of serious work for different projects on me (including the fake environmental specialist thing vis a vis the major lending institution, apropos corruption) which I already know I'm not going to get through in these three weeks no matter what, so not that bothered, except a few colleagues - who I have a lot of respect and affection for - are still relying on me to get it done. I have exactly zero motivation (or even a place to work or a computer, since mine broke last week and no one is in a hurry to get it repaired. So i've been working from the university, which I think is going above and beyond anyway.) so it's just kinda staring at screens all day and trying to find a way to make myself do what I recognize to be qualitatively terrible work, but without even the personal justification "well-i'm-learning-something-I-guess" anymore.

Moral of the story is - never drag out being fired.

 

 

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On 4/22/2016 at 3:22 PM, sperry said:

For those who are involved in recruiting, what is the point of the questions that aren't aiming to measure technical competency?  I get the point of trying to weed out the sociopaths and people who can't interact normally with other humans, but I really don't understand how the 80% of the interview questions serve any purpose, ESPECIALLY for entry level positions where you know they don't know shit and you will have to teach them how to do their job and how to work within your organization.

 

I guess I feel like there are maybe a bottom 5% who can't behave like a reasonable human being during a 30 minute conversation, as well as the 5% who are so charming and gregarious that they could sell ice to the eskimoes, but how the fuck are you meaningfully evaluating the middle 90%?

My recruiting is divided into two buckets:  (1) law school graduates and (2) (a much smaller bucket) lateral attorneys from other firms.

It is basically impossible to judge the technical competency of the candidates in bucket 1.  We use their grades as a proxy, but it's not necessarily a good predictor of future success (to be fair, it is somewhat helpful though).  The questions I ask try to get at (i) a candidate's ownership of their own information (it's surprising how many people can't talk lucidly about their resume beyond platitudes), (ii) a candidate's ownership over projects (I don't necessarily need leaders, but I do need owners), and (iii) a candidate's flexibility in thought and response (really hard to get a read on in an interview, but one tries with the odd curveball question).

Bucket 2 is very, very hard.  It's hard to know why someone is leaving one firm for another.  Pay can factor into it, but it's pretty hard to do given how transparent compensation is in the industry.  And given client confidentiality, it's hard to ask detailed questions of prior work.  I suppose I could give a law school type exam (open book) and see what kinds of answers I would get, but it just isn't done in the market.

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Oooh...a career theead...never really looked at these because I've been quite content in my job...the company's contract with the University was up this year, but no one was overly sweating it...turns out we ought to have worried a little.  Found out today the state chose the other guys.  Feeling a little back stabbed, but we were at the mercy of the state money people, though it feels fishy.

Now I'm not certain where, if anywhere, I'll land. There just isn't much in my specific area around the company, around the country right this moment.  Might have to uproot and move the family to Virginia or South Dakota or something if I want to stay with the company, which I do.  More to come. I may be back for advice...

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On 4/25/2016 at 11:11 AM, Mlle. Zabzie said:

My recruiting is divided into two buckets:  (1) law school graduates and (2) (a much smaller bucket) lateral attorneys from other firms.

It is basically impossible to judge the technical competency of the candidates in bucket 1.  We use their grades as a proxy, but it's not necessarily a good predictor of future success (to be fair, it is somewhat helpful though).  The questions I ask try to get at (i) a candidate's ownership of their own information (it's surprising how many people can't talk lucidly about their resume beyond platitudes), (ii) a candidate's ownership over projects (I don't necessarily need leaders, but I do need owners), and (iii) a candidate's flexibility in thought and response (really hard to get a read on in an interview, but one tries with the odd curveball question).

Bucket 2 is very, very hard.  It's hard to know why someone is leaving one firm for another.  Pay can factor into it, but it's pretty hard to do given how transparent compensation is in the industry.  And given client confidentiality, it's hard to ask detailed questions of prior work.  I suppose I could give a law school type exam (open book) and see what kinds of answers I would get, but it just isn't done in the market.

 

 

We do excel tests with all our managers and analysts. A surprising number of "experts" suck at basic modeling and fail it. 

Being in Finance, generally I trust people that have been promoted at another fortune 500 company. Disney usually doesn't promote morons from Analyst to Manager, same for most other Fortune 500 companies.  Folks from small companies are a lot tougher to judge, since generally I won't know someone who worked there (so no informal referral), and we have no idea if they were VP of running a TPS report or a legitimate candidate.  For folks at manager or above, we usually do 2 rounds of 3+ hour interviews. I put my last Director hire through a brutal 8 hours of interviews between the 2 rounds. I usually tell my candidates that if our hiring process was a joke, you can expect your coworkers are a joke too... so be glad we are tough (or find somewhere else to work). 

 

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