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UK Politics MCMXXXIX: Should I stay or should I go now?


Hereward

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Hm. It's the right link, but the story has been updated.

The earlier version focused on this:

Quote

Earlier Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said the PM had been "merely stating a fact" in his comments, and ex-London mayor Boris Johnson said people would "find it refreshing he was speaking his mind".

The suggestion that as long as something is factual, it's fine to say it, is rather weird coming from a guy whose job you would expect includes a grasp of the nuances of how, when, and to whom you say things. 

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Well, he's an earlier Foreigh Secretary. He probably just forgot his Diplomacy Suit in the office when he left the post. 

I'd say well done all around. I'm sure the government are winning friends left and right in both Nigeria and Afghanistan.

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Considering that Nigeria is a terribly corrupt country and has been for years (owing, among other things, to being a large country, with different peoples, and having huge oil riches unevely distributed), it isn't really surprising that Nigerian officials will agree that their country is corrupt. You would need Comical Ali to deny it. 

However, one would expect a Foreign Secretary to emphasize the positives (look, new anti-corruption platform! Some good work being done!) rather than just latching onto the (deserved) negative impression.

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I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at Leave.

"OK, Boris, you're our big gun. Eton, Balliol, all those years as a journalist and now a popular MP with his finger on the public pulse: time to draw on all that experience and education! We need a clever, compelling argument for Leave, and we need it now."

"Not to worry chaps. I've got a doozy. An argument so smart it would make Plutarch weep for joy."

Next day:

"You know who else was in favour of European integration? Hitler. That's who. Also Napoleon. Think about it!"

"Oh, Boris."

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With the wholesale collapse of the economic argument over the past few weeks, it's left Leave without much choice but to go for popular nationalism and hope for the best. Depressingly, it's entirely possible that this will still be enough.

That's why it's more bizarre that Cameron has chosen to bolster the Remain argument with rather fanciful notions of WWIII erupting and Europe being destroyed in nuclear armageddon if Britain leaves, rather than following up on strengthening sovereignty and doing more to popularise how successful Britain is in getting things done in Europe (arguably the weakest foundation of the Remain argument, at least in terms of perception).

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

That's why it's more bizarre that Cameron has chosen to bolster the Remain argument with rather fanciful notions of WWIII erupting and Europe being destroyed in nuclear armageddon if Britain leaves,


David Cameron is such an unbelievable cretin.

But the Hitler argument is so bad that I'm now convinced Boris must be a plant deliberately trying to lose the campaign.

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On April 28, 2016 at 6:36 AM, Maltaran said:

Ken Livingstone seems to have decided that nobody's paying him enough attention recently and has decided to support Naz Shah, thus leading to at least three senior Labour figures to call for his expulsion 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36160135

Livingstone may have made a couple gaffes or missteps along the way over his career, i'll be the first to admit that I (as a American) dont know his full record. But he will always be remembered (by me) fondly as a hero who helped lead hundreds of thousands to cry "No to War" in Iraq. I can remember February 15th, 2003 like yesterday. I marched in NYC, Livingstone and others ( Bianca Jagger, Tony Benn, etc) helped make Hyde Park shine with a sea of people as the protest was worldwide. It was a special day and Livingstone was a prominent part of the protest and this was well before any of the establishment was coming out as against invading Iraq. At that time the antiwar position would get you mocked, the leaders who stood with public, the "hippies" , early on were leaders with principle, shame Blair and Bush ( and most of the MSM at that time) foolishly dismissed our voices.

Livingstone further distinguished himself in my eyes when he appeared before (U.S.) Sen. Norm Colemans committee and confronted him vociferously, made Coleman look foolish. Coleman ( who lost reelection to Al Franken ) was on the wrong side of history and Livingstone put him in his place. It was an absolute pleasure to see.

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19 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Livingstone may have made a couple gaffes or missteps along the way over his career, i'll be the first to admit that I (as a American) dont know his full record. But he will always be remembered (by me) fondly as a hero who helped lead hundreds of thousands to cry "No to War" in Iraq.

Ken Livingstone is many things: amongst them articulate, and occasionally quite an astute politician, if also tactless, arrogant, holder of some extremely dubious political views*, a huge fan of the camera and the microphone, and an even bigger fan of himself. But a hero? Not in any part of his life. Livingstone did nothing that day but turn up and speak to a huge crowd on TV, something that is usually a great pleasure rather than a hardship for him. It called for ego, not courage, and that's something Ken has in spades.

Also, wrt to Coleman, I think you've confused Livingstone for George Galloway, possessor of an even bigger ego with considerably less reason for it.

*not just about Israel, either: other groups he has offended with his public utterances include the mentally ill and homosexuals.

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8 hours ago, mormont said:

Ken Livingstone is many things: amongst them articulate, and occasionally quite an astute politician, if also tactless, arrogant, holder of some extremely dubious political views*, a huge fan of the camera and the microphone, and an even bigger fan of himself. But a hero? Not in any part of his life. Livingstone did nothing that day but turn up and speak to a huge crowd on TV, something that is usually a great pleasure rather than a hardship for him. It called for ego, not courage, and that's something Ken has in spades.

Also, wrt to Coleman, I think you've confused Livingstone for George Galloway, possessor of an even bigger ego with considerably less reason for it.

*not just about Israel, either: other groups he has offended with his public utterances include the mentally ill and homosexuals.

First of all your right on two accounts here, hero is too strong a description for Livingstones role in the protest. But I fealt admiration for all the leaders who spoke out that day, it was inspirational day for millions around the world to say "Not in our name."

Secondly .....damn 10 years really plays tricks on my memory....your right again, I see it was Galloway- 

May 18, 2005 - Only two senators were present for the questioning of Galloway — Republican Senator Norm Coleman ...
 
In my defense and as I tried to allude to earlier, I havent followed Livingstone (or Galloways) whole careers. Like many Americans I wouldnt be familiar with their whole record, but during the antiwar protest (Livingstone) and before Sen. Colemans committee (Galloway) they were pretty much kindred spirits to my thinking at the time. And during those days we didnt get enough of those voices in the American media so it left a good impression.
 
Sighs...i'll quietly leave the U.K. poli thread to the U.K. posters now.
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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 5:49 PM, Werthead said:

With the wholesale collapse of the economic argument over the past few weeks, it's left Leave without much choice but to go for popular nationalism and hope for the best. Depressingly, it's entirely possible that this will still be enough.

That's why it's more bizarre that Cameron has chosen to bolster the Remain argument with rather fanciful notions of WWIII erupting and Europe being destroyed in nuclear armageddon if Britain leaves, rather than following up on strengthening sovereignty and doing more to popularise how successful Britain is in getting things done in Europe (arguably the weakest foundation of the Remain argument, at least in terms of perception).

I reckon Cameron's last card will be to threaten the UK with asteroid attacks in the event of a Leave vote.

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7 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

First of all your right on two accounts here, hero is too strong a description for Livingstones role in the protest. But I fealt admiration for all the leaders who spoke out that day, it was inspirational day for millions around the world to say "Not in our name."

Fair enough. :) I can admire some of what Livingstone has done in his career, but he's no hero.

7 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Secondly .....damn 10 years really plays tricks on my memory....your right again, I see it was Galloway- 

Yeah, it's an understandable confusion for a non-Brit to make after all. Just pointing it out.

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Thanks for the responses and sorry for the late post. I haven't had much time for posting. 

I guess the questions is how has the England/UK managed to be a strong economic power before the EU? And, are organizations like the EU the wave of the future or does it just lend itself to Europe?

On 5/8/2016 at 7:49 AM, Chaircat Meow said:

edit: the UK isn't a stable country, it nearly fell apart just over 18 months ago.

That's why I asked about England and not the UK. 

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31 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

I guess the questions is how has the England/UK managed to be a strong economic power before the EU?

What, right before the UK joined the EU (or EEC as it was then)? Short answer: it didn't.

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3 hours ago, The Fallen said:

I guess the questions is how has the England/UK managed to be a strong economic power before the EU?

Colonising a large percentage of the planet might have had a little bit to do with it...

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