How do some people honestly think Ramsay wrote the pink letter?

[The Truth]

Still, after how much time its been, I mean it cannot be more obvious.

 

If it came from WF, and Ramsay who is a Bolton now. It would have the official house Bolton seal, only way to confirm who its from. It has no seal, and pink wax writing. Every other Ramsay letter is written in blood. The pink wax is bolton wax yes, its obvious it is Maester Tybald writing it and Theon is dictating it with Stannis.

Content wise......Jon Snow has no clue who the hell Reek is. So why would that be in there. Also "I want my reek back"  is in it. When Theon is speaking to stannis in the most recent convo  ":he wants his reek back" The deal cant work if Jon has no idea who reek is.

 

The whores...........theon uses the word "whore' a total of 17 times in the past three books alone.........Ramsay has NEVER used the word once, in any book.

All the contents are things the stannis camp would know for sure, not ramsay

Also in every other ramsay letter was blood, or skin etc. He tells little walder to 'point out who killed big walder so "he can make a cloak of his skin". So if he has 6 female prisoners, he sure as hell would have sent some type of body part. Also knowing him and how impulsive he is, isn't really the type of person who would give warning, he would just go slaughter.

Stannis also hinted right away to Justin Massey that it is very likely he will hear that he is dead, aka fake his own death but to still get the sell swords anyway.  And not to mention the word "bastard" which he hates, and also is signed by "trueborn heir to winterfel" and bastard is written outside the scroll.....with no seal

Thats not even all of it, if add even more up its so obvious. GRRM is the type of writer who would do this to surprise the people who cant look past a simple trick...

[dRagonese]

i agree one hundred percent. The letter is a ploy for stannis to get Shireen to him so he can burn her.

[The Truth]

Just now, dRagonese said:

i agree one hundred percent. The letter is a ploy for stannis to get Shireen to him so he can burn her.

 

Where the heck did you pull that from? The tv show?

 

i will have no burnings pray harder/if I die seat shireen on the throne. And if anything to beat the freys he most likely wants it to be a blizzard to lure them onto the lake, probably burning something on there. In no way as of recent has the though of burning shireen crossed his mind. Mel isn't with him to put that crazy shit in his head either

[dRagonese]

Just now, The Truth said:

 

Where the heck did you pull that from? The tv show?

 

i will have no burnings pray harder/if I die seat shireen on the throne. And if anything to beat the freys he most likely wants it to be a blizzard to lure them onto the lake, probably burning something on there. In no way as of recent has the though of burning shireen crossed his mind. Mel isn't with him to put that crazy shit in his head either

i hope your rite but why the hell ask for the queen and shireen then( if it is he who wrote it) ramsay would want the queen and daughter as wards but if stannis wrote it why bring them they are much safer at castle black. ? Yes the 2 quotes you referenced show his opposition to the idea but if the books have painted a pretty horrific situation for stannis and his troops so if it continued to deteriorate at the rate it was he just may have changed his mind. 

[Consigliere]

16 minutes ago, dRagonese said:

i agree one hundred percent. The letter is a ploy for stannis to get Shireen to him so he can burn her.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Why would Stannis need to impersonate Ramsay in order to get his wife and child? He could just send a letter with his own seal saying that he needs Selyse and Shireen to join him. If anything, a threatening letter demanding these people makes it much less likely that Jon or anyone named in the letter would accede to these demands.

[Good Guy Garlan]

So Stannis lost his freaking mind, is what you're saying. Because why else would he fake his own death, impersonate his enemy and demand that his daughter, wife, mistress and important hostages be delivered to his enemies' clutches, resulting in the "death" of his staunchest ally in the Night's Watch and a likely all-around brawl among different factions at the Wall? It makes no sense. 

Like you said, why would he include the Reek part, even if Theon had said it? Stannis would've told the Maester to scratch that shit down.

Also, before anyone says "It was a ploy to get Jon to leave the Wall" or whatever, then why didn't he just write, "Bastard, I have your sister and I will rape/flay/torture her and you can't stop me. Evil laughter"? That alone would have sent Jon running to Winterfell. 

But why bother with the hostage part? That's actually super risky, in case someone from the NW would want to give in to the Boltons' demands (say, Bowen Marsh). 

The lack of a seal and blood/skin suggests than Ramsay was in a hurry when he sent the letter, a potential hint of chaos brewing inside Winterfell. 

[John Courage]

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King Beyond the Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

I think it's Mance who wrote it to get Jon to come south with the wildling's and save his ass.

 

[Neolaina]

2 minutes ago, John Courage said:

I think it's Mance who wrote it to get Jon to come south with the wildling's and save his ass.

 

Considering we have Jon's PoV as the mind who's showing us what's going on at the wall, and considering he knows damn well Mance is both alive and in Winterfell, one should consider his actions, and his mental reflections towards the Pink Letter as being completely opposite of how he might react to a letter from Mance. If Mance had sent a message, it would have either been explicit or encoded. And seeing as we're privy to Jon's thoughts, and he identified no such coding, I'd wager neh.

It's not from Mance.

Unless Jon is really fucking stupid.

[The Truth]

33 minutes ago, dRagonese said:

i hope your rite but why the hell ask for the queen and shireen then( if it is he who wrote it) ramsay would want the queen and daughter as wards but if stannis wrote it why bring them they are much safer at castle black. ? Yes the 2 quotes you referenced show his opposition to the idea but if the books have painted a pretty horrific situation for stannis and his troops so if it continued to deteriorate at the rate it was he just may have changed his mind. 

More so to create a diversion, fake his own death, and get Jon to march most likely with more men

[John Courage]

1 minute ago, Neolaina said:

Considering we have Jon's PoV as the mind who's showing us what's going on at the wall, and considering he knows damn well Mance is both alive and in Winterfell, one should consider his actions, and his mental reflections towards the Pink Letter as being completely opposite of how he might react to a letter from Mance. If Mance had sent a message, it would have either been explicit or encoded. And seeing as we're privy to Jon's thoughts, and he identified no such coding, I'd wager neh.

It's not from Mance.

Unless Jon is really fucking stupid.

Why would Mance be explicit with Jon? Who south of the wall calls the NW crows? How could anyone get access to Bolton pink wax if they're not in Winterfell? If Ramsay wrote it, he would use his seal, which isn't used on the letter.

[The Truth]

13 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

So Stannis lost his freaking mind, is what you're saying. Because why else would he fake his own death, impersonate his enemy and demand that his daughter, wife, mistress and important hostages be delivered to his enemies' clutches, resulting in the "death" of his staunchest ally in the Night's Watch and a likely all-around brawl among different factions at the Wall? It makes no sense. 

Like you said, why would he include the Reek part, even if Theon had said it? Stannis would've told the Maester to scratch that shit down.

Also, before anyone says "It was a ploy to get Jon to leave the Wall" or whatever, then why didn't he just write, "Bastard, I have your sister and I will rape/flay/torture her and you can't stop me. Evil laughter"? That alone would have sent Jon running to Winterfell. 

But why bother with the hostage part? That's actually super risky, in case someone from the NW would want to give in to the Boltons' demands (say, Bowen Marsh). 

The lack of a seal and blood/skin suggests than Ramsay was in a hurry when he sent the letter, a potential hint of chaos brewing inside Winterfell. 

The only way for anyone to know for sure its from the sender is an official seal. Jon has no clue who the hell reek is. Just the terms alone, ramsay NEVER used the word whore. hates the word bastard. Theon says whore all the time. Theon uses the exact phrase I want my reek back and then sure enough......

 

With 6 dead whores, no blood sent, no skin, nothing. Just pink wax, pink wax that stannis has with tybald, and has ravens right up there, its obvious grrm included everything carefully with maester tybald being with stannis, its impossible not to see, or just naive

[The Truth]

12 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King Beyond the Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

I think it's Mance who wrote it to get Jon to come south with the wildling's and save his ass.

 

the term "black crows' is also never used in any book other then wildlings. like 30 times. only wildlings refer to nights watchmen as that. so its possible it was mance, only thing for sure is its on ramsay. I still lead to stannis theon and tybald, unless mance stole pink ink somehow, only ink that a dreadfort maester would have.

[Neolaina]

6 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Why would Mance be explicit with Jon? Who south of the wall calls the NW crows? How could anyone get access to Bolton pink wax if they're not in Winterfell? If Ramsay wrote it, he would use his seal, which isn't used on the letter.

Why would Mance be so shrouded in his message that Jon would think - privately, in his own thoughts - that the letter's genuine? That seems like a pretty foolish maneuver if Mance is trying to rally help.

White wax melted down and mixed with red wax would make pink wax. Why this seems to be a stretch is beyond me.

To the last part, I never said Ramsay wrote anything. All I'm claiming is that if Mance did write the letter in order to get help from Jon, he fucked that up royally.

Edit: I didn't address the use of the word "crow", but I'd wager it's a known epithet towards members of the Night's Watch south of the wall, despite the fact we've seen no one use it.

[John Courage]

Just now, The Truth said:

the term "black crows' is also never used in any book other then wildlings. like 30 times. only wildlings refer to nights watchmen as that. so its possible it was mance, only thing for sure is its on ramsay. I still lead to stannis theon and tybald, unless mance stole pink ink somehow, only ink that a dreadfort maester would have.

Yea, its def not Ramsay, but could be Tybald and co. with Stannis. I just lean toward Mance because he's roaming around Winterfell, and can sneak into wherever he wants. Just the "black crows" and the sort way it's written just makes me think Mance wrote it. If I'm to believe Stannis wrote it, I would just need clarification on the timeline because Jon gets the letter at the end of Dance and we don't see Theon with Stannis and Tybald until Winds.

[Neolaina]

8 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Yea, its def not Ramsay, but could be Tybald and co. with Stannis. I just lean toward Mance because he's roaming around Winterfell, and can sneak into wherever he wants. Just the "black crows" and the sort way it's written just makes me think Mance wrote it. If I'm to believe Stannis wrote it, I would just need clarification on the timeline because Jon gets the letter at the end of Dance and we don't see Theon with Stannis and Tybald until Winds.

See, now this is where I'm leaning as well. As for timeline clarifications, we're purposely not getting them. We do know It seems as though the first few chapters of WoW overlap with the last few of DwD, though. That, I'd think, would/should be good enough, despite not being wholly definitive of what's happened at what point in time.

Edit: I'm trying to corroborate my claim. I wrote it, on a truth I hold as a baseline from a while ago. Can't remember, need to look into it. Edit 2: Can't find it. Presuming it was something that materialized in another thread that was taken as truth. Amended.

[The Truth]

@goodguygarlan So grrm is all of a sudden going to have characters use terms and words they have NEVER used before? Maybe its just a mistake on his part? For sure not, all he does is leave clues, every term and phrase and every hint is always used for a reason. You have to add it all up, nothing in the letter is anything related to ramsay. the words, the ink, the seal, the phrasing..

[The Truth]

11 minutes ago, John Courage said:

Yea, its def not Ramsay, but could be Tybald and co. with Stannis. I just lean toward Mance because he's roaming around Winterfell, and can sneak into wherever he wants. Just the "black crows" and the sort way it's written just makes me think Mance wrote it. If I'm to believe Stannis wrote it, I would just need clarification on the timeline because Jon gets the letter at the end of Dance and we don't see Theon with Stannis and Tybald until Winds.

 

Well we know the plots are not always linear. No attack on camp stannis has happened yet. That will be one of the major battles to start off TWOW. I think Stannis and Tybald sent it most likely right after the leaked chapter in winds. Just cause it is clear to me Theon ghost writ it. He is the only character to use the word "whore": over 15 times. And the discussion with ramsay is coming "he wants his reek back" and then with the letter "I want my reek back" even though in every book he never once refers to reek as "my reek" etc

[The Truth]

12 minutes ago, Neolaina said:

See, now this is where I'm leaning as well. As for timeline clarifications, we're purposely not getting them. We do know that the first few chapters of WoW overlap with the last few of DwD, though. That, I'd think, would/should be good enough, despite not being wholly definitive of what's happened at what point in time.

Edit: I'm trying to corroborate my claim. I wrote it, on a truth I hold as a baseline from a while ago. Can't remember, need to look into it.

 

We also know Tybald sent a map to WF. And Stannis found that out. So stannis knows that the boltons/freys are aware of his position. So he is getting ready for that.  The night lamp theory is pretty close to spot on what I think will happen. So with a maester there with that ink, stannis wont waste him, we see that he has summoned him once.  I believe that chapter we have in winds happens in doubt doubt before the letter is sent. grrm just wanted to mess with people and give a cliff hanger at the end of dance

[Good Guy Garlan]

8 minutes ago, The Truth said:

@goodguygarlan So grrm is all of a sudden going to have characters use terms and words they have NEVER used before? Maybe its just a mistake on his part? For sure not, all he does is leave clues, every term and phrase and every hint is always used for a reason. You have to add it all up, nothing in the letter is anything related to ramsay. the words, the ink, the seal, the phrasing..

Just cause Ramsay's never said the word "whore" it doesn't mean it's not part of his vocabulary. Why wouldn't he say "whore", if everyone else in Westeros does? Same with "bastard." He hates that word...when it's applied to him. But it's fully in character for him to call another guy "bastard" to make himself look better, to flaunt his newly acquired highborn status. 

I'll give you "crows", but that plays into my theory that Mance wrote the letter along with Ramsay. 

[sweetsunray]

A lot of the other stuff is ambiguous - for example the wax seal, some argue could have been opened by someone of the Watch, like Clydas (who is the only one who could have aided Slynt in sending a letter to Cersei about Jon and Stannis). It seems to me a case can be made that Clydas expected a letter from the Lannisters or Lannister allies to give the go-ahead to assassinate Jon Snow. If so, then Clydas broke the seal and patched it up.

But I agree that the sum of all the ambiguous elements, and imo including the absence of evidence that Boltons can even send ravens from ruined WF itself (so far they have solely received ravens), and George stressing how Luwin's ravens are in the heart tree (and those could only be ravens homing into WF) and the rookery burned leads to ruling out Ramsay as the author of the Pink Letter.

I also agree that the use of "whores" points to Theon imo. He's the one who uses this word regularly. We never ever see Ramsay use that word, nor does Mance.

I don't think it's sent from Stannis' camp though - Stannis has ravens for WF, but it is doubtful he would have ravens for CB.

Hence I think the letter was sent by Theon in the company of the Karstark maester and Stannis's strongarm guard of the Karstark maester from another location.