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What is D and D's endgame?


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On 20/11/2016 at 11:02 AM, Yukle said:

Why would Dany's coalition burn their allies?

 

I randomly entered the forum today and saw that you are quoting a post I made many months previously in 25th of April just a day after the premiere of the previous season. And I see there is a leaks thread now about the new season or you concluded after more episodes in the previous season that they would be Danny's coalition.

Part of what I thought was that Dorne is foreshadowed to get burned in the books, and it might happen here too. That wasn't an examination of the hows  and I am not really interested at months old comments.  I know many in the books like to raise people from the dead but after a point let those old posts dead.

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9 hours ago, Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren said:

 

I randomly entered the forum today and saw that you are quoting a post I made many months previously in 25th of April just a day after the premiere of the previous season. And I see there is a leaks thread now about the new season or you concluded after more episodes in the previous season that they would be Danny's coalition.

Part of what I thought was that Dorne is foreshadowed to get burned in the books, and it might happen here too. That wasn't an examination of the hows  and I am not really interested at months old comments.  I know many in the books like to raise people from the dead but after a point let those old posts dead.

Yeah, soz. I didn't notice the post's date - I thought this was recent. :P

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On 10/29/2016 at 4:39 PM, JLE said:

What's their endgame?

Making large amounts of money from writing piss-poor fanfic...

This...luckily they will be gone soon and HBO and GRRM can write a better prequel series.

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what's their endgame?

seems like the endgame is to complete the series in the amount of time they said they would and do it to the best of their abilities.

I don't understand why people think they've just stopped caring and are letting things go to shit because of apathy. if that was the case, they'd make a movie or they'd extend the show to 12 seasons; others could write it and they could keep their names on it and cash their checks.

Martin was the one who wanted a movie. he was hoping it'd buy him more time. D&D argued against a movie and rightfully so. wrapping things up in 7(8) seasons is the smart thing to do. I would hate for this show to go on and on until the writing gets so bad that the viewership drops off to the point where it doesn't turn a profit. by the way, viewer numbers have consistently increased each season.

the show isn't perfect. but it is damn good. you don't have to like it or love it; but I just can't believe the number of people who do nothing but sit and talk shit about how terrible everything in the show is. yeah, Dorne sucked. did it suck so bad that I wish the series had been canceled at season 2? nope. some original plots are going to be bad and some plots will be poorly adapted and some plots from the books are either impossible to translate or are just bad in their own right and should be left on the cutting room floor.

did they whitewash some characters? yeah, because no one wants to watch a show where they dislike everyone and can't empathize them or engage themselves in the story. Tyrion killed Shae, Stannis burned his daughter alive, Dany crucified people and has killed on a whim, Jon Snow betrayed his love and killed a kid. these are the protagonists of GoT's story. seems like there's plenty of gray.

so I think that's what their endgame is: finish things up without dragging the series on so long that we wish they'd have let it die in 7 seasons.

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8 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

This...luckily they will be gone soon and HBO and GRRM can write a better prequel series.

how is that going to happen when GRRM can't even write the main series? when is he going to start writing scripts for a prequel? will he adapt those scripts? if so, he needs to write the prequel first. how do you possibly see this happening?

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having Sansa there made significantly more sense for the television show. I don't get what people found so sacrilegious about that. it was portrayed less brutal than the books and people's complaint seems to be "I don't like when bad things happen to characters I like";  and if that's your complaint, you're reading the wrong book series and watching the wrong show.

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I hope I'm wrong but I honestly think the show will end differently than the books. Maybe it will be 50/50. I don't know. They have changed so much already that the show has been it's own story - it's more of a loosely based off of now. We really won't know until the last books are published to see if the show's ending is vastly different from the books. The show doesn't have certain character relationships, they don't understand the importance of the direwolves, and a lot of the characters are two dimensional with little depth when you think about it. Despite the flaws I do love the show... I just hope D and D surprise us (I believe half of the leaks are false or at least misleading).

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On 11/27/2016 at 9:13 PM, myhalfgroat said:

having Sansa there made significantly more sense for the television show. I don't get what people found so sacrilegious about that. it was portrayed less brutal than the books and people's complaint seems to be "I don't like when bad things happen to characters I like";  and if that's your complaint, you're reading the wrong book series and watching the wrong show.

Sense? In what world does Sansa marrying Ramsay for "revenge" makes sense? Unless she has a case of vagina dentata, nothing there could ever make sense.

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I keep going back to the thought that if I were to wait fr Martin to finish his story, I will be dead before I see the end. If you dont like where the tv show has taken the story, even that fault lies greatly with Martin. If he could have found some way to force himself to write ten words a day, he would have controled this story more.

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I think that DnD are triangulating towards the book endings.

For example, ever since reading Book 1 (before watching the show), I thought that Arya and Sansa would end up avenging Ned - and, as I read on, Cat. I felt that at some point, the Stark ladies would run into each other, and share in the revenge. And every single decision made since then, book or show, has been in accordance with this. Robb died, because it was not *his* purpose to avenge his father. And then, show-only, Sansa was behind the destruction of the Boltons while Arya killed Walder Frey. So, as far as I feel, the show is doing things to this Stark ladies plot that I have thought would happen since Book 1.

The second plot is the Jaime-Cersei-Brienne triangle. Here, ultimately, the execution of this plot is down to two things: the valonqar prophecy, and whether book Jaime and show Jaime make the same decision, whatever that is. We can't tell about the valonqar yet, *or* the final decision. But certainly, Jaime and Brienne seem to keep getting love scenes together, while Jaime is slowly growing disenchanted with Cersei. So, once again, I think that this plot will end in the same way.

And the third plot, the most important, is the war for Dawn. This plot we know of the least from the books, since it has really barely started there. Even the revelation of what the Walkers are isn't yet in the books in print. But given that the first two plots are leading roughly towards where they should, I see no reason to doubt that this one, too, will resolve as it should. 

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I won't pretend like "revenge" was a competent reason. it was poorly handled because: (1) they didn't articulate what they were trying to get at and (2) even if they had articulated it better, it's still a ridiculous reason.

what I'm saying is that it made sense for her to be there. at Winterfell. in the North. it was significantly better than shoehorning the Fake Arya plot. they needed a Stark at Winterfell and rather than introducing a convuluted plot, they used the Stark that they had and got her where she needed to be. they're moving the story forward and that is a good thing.

what I rarely see people complain about is the "reason" she got married to Ramsey. a much more common complaint is that people didn't like something terrible happening to Sansa. for show only people, I get that. but book readers know that what should have happened is much more horrific. in the book it happened to Jeyne Poole and not Sansa but now that it happened to Sansa I read people saying "how could D&D do this to her!" I just don't think that's a valid critique of the show.

again, they're moving the story forward and they're closing it out at a good time. if they went on for 12 seasons by putting in every boring travelogue that has bloated the last couple books, the show would decline to the point that it would nearly be as bad as the vocal minority on this board seems to think it is.

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4 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

I won't pretend like "revenge" was a competent reason. it was poorly handled because: (1) they didn't articulate what they were trying to get at and (2) even if they had articulated it better, it's still a ridiculous reason.

what I'm saying is that it made sense for her to be there. at Winterfell. in the North. it was significantly better than shoehorning the Fake Arya plot. they needed a Stark at Winterfell and rather than introducing a convuluted plot, they used the Stark that they had and got her where she needed to be. they're moving the story forward and that is a good thing.

what I rarely see people complain about is the "reason" she got married to Ramsey. a much more common complaint is that people didn't like something terrible happening to Sansa. for show only people, I get that. but book readers know that what should have happened is much more horrific. in the book it happened to Jeyne Poole and not Sansa but now that it happened to Sansa I read people saying "how could D&D do this to her!" I just don't think that's a valid critique of the show.

again, they're moving the story forward and they're closing it out at a good time. if they went on for 12 seasons by putting in every boring travelogue that has bloated the last couple books, the show would decline to the point that it would nearly be as bad as the vocal minority on this board seems to think it is.

You are absolutely right about Sansa and the plot line she was given - and the reasons some posters react to it. And you are right that sending Sansa to WF instead of having her organizing parties in  the Vale was a good move. Though I am quite sure that Martin did not write that cute TWOW chapter without a reason: it is the misleading foreplay to something dark and horrible that will happen to Sansa in the books as well. The author can take his time to get to the big shock where the show's time is limited. And they needed a character people are emotionally engaged in as center of the Winterfell part. Jeyne would not have done the job. Just like burning a somewhat pale and random Shireen would not have made Stannis' story compelling. And, frankly, what happened to  Shireen had a far bigger emotional impact on me than what happened to Sansa. Sansa is, after all, still alive.

But what was indeed poorly done was the way to get there. A disservice to both the characters of Baelish and Sansa. She went along with his idea so easily, no challenge there  for him to trick her into following his plan. Can she be so foolish?  And where is the challenge for Peter the mastermind!? Then dumbing him further down when he does not know about Ramsay's hobbies! The show lacks complex and sophisticated villains, they simply cannot afford to simplify Baelish! I only hope that he gets more time for his sinister works and won't simply get 

 

executed as some spoilers say

Yet I miss some of the mystical magical atmospheric parts in Tyrion's travels. And other readers will have their favorite chapters they miss dearly.

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6 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

I won't pretend like "revenge" was a competent reason. it was poorly handled because: (1) they didn't articulate what they were trying to get at and (2) even if they had articulated it better, it's still a ridiculous reason.

what I'm saying is that it made sense for her to be there. at Winterfell. in the North. it was significantly better than shoehorning the Fake Arya plot. they needed a Stark at Winterfell and rather than introducing a convuluted plot, they used the Stark that they had and got her where she needed to be. they're moving the story forward and that is a good thing.

what I rarely see people complain about is the "reason" she got married to Ramsey. a much more common complaint is that people didn't like something terrible happening to Sansa. for show only people, I get that. but book readers know that what should have happened is much more horrific. in the book it happened to Jeyne Poole and not Sansa but now that it happened to Sansa I read people saying "how could D&D do this to her!" I just don't think that's a valid critique of the show.

again, they're moving the story forward and they're closing it out at a good time. if they went on for 12 seasons by putting in every boring travelogue that has bloated the last couple books, the show would decline to the point that it would nearly be as bad as the vocal minority on this board seems to think it is.

The reason as to why Sansa married Ramsay or even married at all is my complaint; When a story arc doesn't make any sense, then it just makes for bad TV. Sansa going to Winterfell wasn't my issue at all, and I could understand the reasons as to why do it. But there were several different ways to do this, and they chose the sexist, offensive, out of character one.  

Funny how the only character in-character was Ramsay, and the only bit of characterization it mattered was "He rapes." Way to get people talking, I guess. Well, If I was stuck in a room with a rapist, I'd be raped too. The real question is: How in the world would I choose willingly to put myself in that position? The show never bothered to create a situation, it was merely for the shock value of getting Sansa there.

So no, still sucks. It's still sexist and offensive to victimize an already suffering lead female character for man-drama (Theon) and for man-villany (Ramsay). And it's not just my opinion. 90% of the critics made the exact same point.

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@Alayne's Shadow

The rape of Sansa was not about Theon. Theon or what happened on Theon's face was rather a way to mirror what was happening to Sansa for the audience.

Is it sexist to make a female character suffer for man drama? Then why would it not be sexist to instrumentalize  Shireen and to burn her for Stannis' man drama? If you imply that the rape of Sansa is only about Ramsay then you negate all influence of this deed on Sansa's future characterization. And obviously the same would count - violence against women presented in a story - if Martin himself ever wrote about the abuse of one of the more important female characters by or in the presence of an important male character.

And 90% of all critics do not agree in their opinion of that plot event. Maybe 90% of the critics you chose to read.

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@Woman of War

I'd like to start this discussion by asking you how many Shireen chapters there are in the books, as to make a fair comparison of the importance between her chapters and Sansa's story and character arc. 

Once we got that out of our ways, Theon is also a secondary character in regards to Sansa, and yet that storyline was serviced to him and to Ramsay (Moreso to the latter). Sansa as a character did nothing, pretty much. It was only through her suffering (Women are) that Theon found the courage to "save" her (Men act). So, yes, she was only there as a plot-point, not as a fully-fleshed character. It could be anyone, really. Since she was literally glued in Jeyne's storyline. I guess the empathy came from the fact that she was a Stark, never for something relating to her character or her personality or her development.

And yes, the rape was done so in service of Ramsay, as it showed how bad he was, and Theon, and that goes throughout season 5. In season 6, although Sansa narrated the repercussions of said fact, what really changed for her? She already hated the Boltons before and she forgave Littlefinger, so really, she wasn't the character in mind. And mind you:

Ramsay Bolton - 0 chapters. 

Theon - 10 chapters.

Sansa - 25 chapters. 

If you're looking to ask who's the most important character, then go no further than the books. And by the way, the episode was universally criticized by this plot-point. Or are you denying said critics? Because, you know, they're not that hard to find.

Quote

The majority of professional criticism concerned the decision to have Ramsay rape Sansa on their wedding night, with most critics describing the scene as gratuitous and artistically unnecessary

Critic Consensus: Unbalanced storytelling and unnecessary, excessive brutality add up to disturbing viewing, although "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" still includes enough plot revelations to offer hope for future episodes.

 

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IN MHO D&D are working to give the audience, to the best of their ability, a grand finish. I believe they have stated they have no plans or intentions in being part of a prequel. Let's hope their ending is palatable to the larger audience.   :D

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4 hours ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

@Woman of War

I'd like to start this discussion by asking you how many Shireen chapters there are in the books, as to make a fair comparison of the importance between her chapters and Sansa's story and character arc. 

Once we got that out of our ways.... 

 

 

 

We did not get that out of our ways.

Do you think that a character is more entitled to her physical integrity if she has more chapters? Apart from that Shireen got far more space in the show than in the books, probably due to the great performance of the actress.

In many of her book chapters Sansa is the narrator, there to observe what happens around her, seeing a lot and understanding not so much, so that the readers can draw their own conclusions. Those chapters are not first of all about her. Apart from that, how much a character is  loved , how intense the emotional impact of her suffering is does not depend on chapter count. 

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58 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

We did not get that out of our ways.

Do you think that a character is more entitled to her physical integrity if she has more chapters? Apart from that Shireen got far more space in the show than in the books, probably due to the great performance of the actress.

In many of her book chapters Sansa is the narrator, there to observe what happens around her, seeing a lot and understanding not so much, so that the readers can draw their own conclusions. Those chapters are not first of all about her. Apart from that, how much a character is  loved , how intense the emotional impact of her suffering is does not depend on chapter count. 

Clearly, the argument did not extend to the rest of the post. The point being, Sansa's a major character in the saga and Shireen's a tertiary character. Of course it makes sense a reader cares more about a character that has been a part of the story and has a central role than a tertiary character. You can't compare both because they're not on the same scale. Shireen's plot and character importance is not the same as Sansa's, and that goes both ways, books and show.

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 Ah, yes, dear, sweet Shireen, whose very existence -- and the extinguishing of same -- were purely a plot device in show as evidence of her father's enormous wickedness and her mother's insanity. She remains quite alive in the books, but possibly doomed, kind of a Schrödinger's Shireen.

 

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