Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Langsax]

Heading Into season 6, with zero guidance from George Martin is as much a leap of faith, as was Sansa falling off the wall. I agree with the thought that her character in the HBO story is weak, indecisive, and does not engender respect or much interest.

Still, it's the only Sansa in town, and I am happier with her being alive, than winding up in a dog's belly.

[Colonel Green]

17 minutes ago, Clash said:

But by not exposing him when she has the chance not make her complicit in his crimes? And weaken her hold on him at the same time.

Not really.  She still doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to, and has her own base of support.

7 minutes ago, Daske said:

Life throws curveballs and people do not always make the 'right' decisions or do what we expect them to. And others do not take advantage of things that they could use with good affect - maybe with more experience they would know how to use them. People can 'move forward' but take another knock back through no fault of their own. Her journey is not meant to be easy. And she is still very young to be dealing with everything that she is. Rather than some bolt of lightning epiphany where she suddenly found herself in control of her own destiny just because she got one over of Littlefinger I see her as following a jagged path up - two steps forward, one step back. In reality people grow slowly. But she is getting there. I suspect that next time she finds herself in a position to bend a situation to her will she will take better advantage of it.

What's the rush?

It shouldn't be easy, but there's a difference between that and her being a complete moron, which is what the plot requires here even as the show claims she's becoming a real player.  It's clear from how the writers talk that they want people to see the whole thing as a workable plan, but for the failure to know Ramsay's true nature, but it's simply not.

[Stannistician]

5 hours ago, MrsStocksey said:

I don't think she thought she would avoid the bedding but it was probably the moment that Ramsey told Reek he had to stay that she realised it wasn't going to be a particularly nice experience.  It was like Ramsey flipped the switch in his head and the full psycho appeared, up until that point he'd been relatively nice to Sansa (compared to the way we have seen him treat others on the show), Myranda had been the real nasty one and Sansa might have taken most of that to be jealousy, which is partly true.  

She is still naïve but I don't think she ever thought she'd get away without the bedding, but she didn't expect it to be so brutal and awful. 

Even if she thought it wasn't going to be so brutal and awful, there was always the very real risk that she would produce a Bolton heir, and thus legitimize the Boltons as Wardens of the North.  So even if she was able to exact revenge on Roose and Ramsay, help Stannis take WF, or whatever the hell her plan was, she still after all of that may have been stuck with an even worse problem.  Stupid decision on her part.

[Ludo Kressh]

I thought it was kind of funny when Theon was trying to throw off Ramsey's men by saying Sansa was dead and that she broke her legs jumping from the ramparts of Winterfell. I was thinking 'That's what would have happened to her in real life, lol.'

On 4/25/2016 at 2:03 AM, Lord Lannister said:

They survived hypothermia the same way they survived that jump, in good enough shape to run, I expect.

 

[MrsStocksey]

Fair point, it's not the smartest decision....maybe she had a secret stash of Moon Tea at the ready 

[McAssey]

On 4/27/2016 at 5:04 PM, dantares83 said:

she already knew her brothers are alive and Theon killed some other innocent farm boys. I think that is the only reason why she looked at him for approval. 

I don't remember any episode where Sansa was told this information.  Do you recall which one?  I would like to watch it again.

[Clash]

17 minutes ago, Stannistician said:

Even if she thought it wasn't going to be so brutal and awful, there was always the very real risk that she would produce a Bolton heir, and thus legitimize the Boltons as Wardens of the North.  So even if she was able to exact revenge on Roose and Ramsay, help Stannis take WF, or whatever the hell her plan was, she still after all of that may have been stuck with an even worse problem.  Stupid decision on her part.

That's a long way down the road though. If the Boltons are wiped out, what difference would it make? Her putative child could be a daughter or raised as a Stark. Any child (from any union) she does have in the future wouldn't be a Stark anyway.

And she also knows her brothers are still alive, so there's even less likelihood of the Boltons taking over.

[McAssey]

6 minutes ago, Ludo Kressh said:

I thought it was kind of funny when Theon was trying to throw off Ramsey's men by saying Sansa was dead and that she broke her legs jumping from the ramparts of Winterfell. I was thinking 'That's what would have happened to her in real life, lol.'

 

They survived in pure Hollywood style: there was a big cart full of hay at the base of the wall conveniently just beneath them.

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, McAssey said:

I don't remember any episode where Sansa was told this information.  Do you recall which one?  I would like to watch it again.

It's in season 5.... EVERYONE knows it.  

[Ruhail]

9 minutes ago, McAssey said:

I don't remember any episode where Sansa was told this information.  Do you recall which one?  I would like to watch it again.

Episode 8 

[Les Météores D]

7 minutes ago, Stannistician said:

Even if she thought it wasn't going to be so brutal and awful, there was always the very real risk that she would produce a Bolton heir, and thus legitimize the Boltons as Wardens of the North.  So even if she was able to exact revenge on Roose and Ramsay, help Stannis take WF, or whatever the hell her plan was, she still after all of that may have been stuck with an even worse problem.  Stupid decision on her part.

But taking part in LF's plan means going against the crown/Cersei, Sansa knows that because LF basically tells her the Boltons are going to break the alliance with the Lannisters.

In the best case scenario: she would get revenge, she'd get Winterfell and the Dreadfort for her heir and if the North secede again, she can take the Stark name back without Tommen's accord because... who cares? the Northern lords would back her over the Lannisters in a heartbeat. 

[Clash]

20 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Not really.  She still doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to, and has her own base of support.

But she does want to go to Winterfell and become the Lady of Winterfell. She doesn't have a clue how bad Ramsay really is.

[Colonel Green]

9 minutes ago, Clash said:

But she does want to go to Winterfell and become the Lady of Winterfell. She doesn't have a clue how bad Ramsay really is.

It's a ridiculous plan whether Ramsay is a psycho or not.  She would well know from her time in King's Landing that a title is utterly meaningless when your enemies are in complete control of you.

[Stangler]

7 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Book 6 spoilers [minor]

  Reveal hidden contents

They do survive, but they have sequels. Jeyne's nose got frozen, for example, and she might lose a bit.

 

I honestly don't know what you mean here, but if you mean the show, it's not really the case.

At the end of Season 4, they showed Sansa realising that LF lusted for her, and she was given this "moment of empowering" when they dressed her up as a more "adult" and "strong" Sansa. She literally told LF "I know what you want" after she saved his ass and lied on his behalf in front of the Lords. And such Lords pretty much told her "you're Ned Stark's daughter and we will protect you". Sansa had all the cards to triumph over Baelish. So, either D&d are that bad telling stories that they didn't realise all the signals pointed to Sansa being able to manipulate LF, or they simply changed their minds later.

The more likely scenario is, after they admitted the were planning this scene since Season 2, is that they wanted to make Sansa's decision a tragedy because it was a bad decision. Like "look, Sansa finally took something on her own but failed!!" because it would be more dramatic. Because honestly, no one in her right mind would do what Sansa did, willingly.

And seriously, it's very very stupid because Sansa is not a five years old, an she KNEW she would marry Ramsay, she KNEW what a wedding night involves, and she acted like she was just finding out right there what was going to happen. They presented her as this "hardened woman" dressed like a seductress to be a fearful child in the next season There is absolutely NOTHING in this plot making sense. 

So what if LF lusted after her? That only establishes why he would want to gain power over her.It was also clearly not enough of a motivation for him to stop him from manipulating her and using her. A theme that perfectly fits that rather straight forward story they are telling. 

She as a character was becoming more empowered. That is a character change, not a change of situation. Big difference.

When anyone changes a situation it can seem like they are finally freeing themselves but too often people fall in the trap of simply trading one bad situation for another. It is a very common reality and theme in story telling about independence. I can understand having the feeling that Sansa was finally free. She wasn't. What freedom she had was an illusion. 

She tried to fight against that situation but once again LF manipulated the situation to get what he wanted. That is what he does. 

I don't find the plot inconsistent or confusing at all. I find it sad and heartbreaking but that doesn't mean it is unrealistic or not true to the nature of these types of stories. 

[Clash]

7 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It's a ridiculous plan whether Ramsay is a psycho or not.  She would well know from her time in King's Landing that a title is utterly meaningless when your enemies are in complete control of you.

In the North she's much closer to the Stark bannermen that would have supported her father and could be allies again. In the Vale of Arryn she's not in control regardless of how strong you think her hold over LF might be. And that coin can only be used once.

[Maxxine]

5 hours ago, MrsStocksey said:

I don't think she thought she would avoid the bedding but it was probably the moment that Ramsey told Reek he had to stay that she realised it wasn't going to be a particularly nice experience.  It was like Ramsey flipped the switch in his head and the full psycho appeared, up until that point he'd been relatively nice to Sansa (compared to the way we have seen him treat others on the show), Myranda had been the real nasty one and Sansa might have taken most of that to be jealousy, which is partly true.  

She is still naïve but I don't think she ever thought she'd get away without the bedding, but she didn't expect it to be so brutal and awful. 

I agree with this. I think her reaction to the bedding was not because she did not expect to have sex, but she realized at that moment how crazy Ramsay was. One thing I'm not clear about is how much she knew about Ramsay going in. I can't remember if someone told her or at least hinted at what Ramsay really was.

[Stangler]

8 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

It's a ridiculous plan whether Ramsay is a psycho or not.  She would well know from her time in King's Landing that a title is utterly meaningless when your enemies are in complete control of you.

She did not want to do this. She breaks down in tears at the thought but is then manipulated by LF. 

It is very important to understand that Sansa's story is about how people are using their power to control her. Joff is a story of brute force. LF is a story of verbal and emotional manipulation.

The story arc of Sansa is about directly dealing with these types of problems people, and in particular women, face when entering into relationships. 

[Colonel Green]

3 minutes ago, Clash said:

In the North she's much closer to the Stark bannermen that would have supported her father and could be allies again. 

Which would be a very plausible reason to seek out those bannermen.  That is not remotely a plausible reason to go to Winterfell, where the Boltons would have control of her and be able to stop her from interacting with those bannermen.

1 minute ago, Stangler said:

She did not want to do this. She breaks down in tears at the thought but is then manipulated by LF. 

It is very important to understand that Sansa's story is about how people are using their power to control her. Joff is a story of brute force. LF is a story of verbal and emotional manipulation.

The story arc of Sansa is about directly dealing with these types of problems people, and in particular women, face when entering into relationships. 

Except that Sansa is only with Littlefinger at that point because she wants to be, even if the show were playing it as manipulative, when everybody was always talking about how she had "a real choice".

[Stangler]

Just now, Colonel Green said:

Which would be a very plausible reason to seek out those bannermen.  That is not remotely a plausible reason to go to Winterfell, where the Boltons would have control of her and be able to stop her from interacting with those bannermen.

Except that Sansa is only with Littlefinger at that point because she wants to be, even if the show were playing it as manipulative, when everybody was always talking about how she had "a real choice".

That is why LF had to manipulate her to get his way. If she was just forced into it then the story would have been the same as the Joff story line. This part of her story is about her being manipulated into bad situations.

It is not like this kind of thing doesn't happen in reality.  

[Les Météores D]

Now that I think about it, the only thing that was inconsistent imo with that plot was that LF had absolutely nothing on Ramsay and even told him so to his face. But how much did Roose hide from Ned and then Robb of what was going on in his land? did they knew of rumors about Domeric and Ramsay at all? I can't remember. Theon knew nothing about Ramsay either.