Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Stangler]

10 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I would agree.  Because that's what the show does...

Unless you are saying the reasons I don't think a schemer like Littlefinger would do it are what is nonsensical, because I would like something to work with for why you think those points may not be correct (such as you don't think he deeply wants his Cat-surrogate that he was denied as a boy, or you think Cersei is firmly entrenched in a power position). 

Your theory is bad and it has nothing to do with what the show is doing. 

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Stangler said:

Your theory is bad and it has nothing to do with what the show is doing. 

Theory?  You mean what they are showing Littlefinger doing on the screen?  Not even getting into spoilers for the upcoming season, do you really see Littlefinger and the Bolton's working as allies?  

I think you just won the gold for mental gymnastics because I can't follow how you leaped through that at all.

[Cas Stark]

40 minutes ago, Stangler said:

He sends Sansa off so that he is allied with the North. I have no idea how he doesn't give up Sansa in that equation. 

Why?  What do the Boltons give him?  What do they think he wants out of the alliance?  He has the backing of the Vale, for reason does he need the Boltons?  

The Boltons, too, are making some strange decisions, openly marrying the heir to a woman wanted for regicide, breaking the Lannister alliance.  

LF discusses the idea that Stannis will beat the Boltons and free her, and then she has Winterfell...but that could have been arranged w/out her marriage to Ramsay.  And then if the Boltons win...I guess she has revenge, LOL.

Sorry the entire plan from the perspective of all parties, Sansa, Littlefinger and the Boltons is yes, nonsense. 

[Stangler]

1 minute ago, JonSnow4President said:

Theory?  You mean what they are showing Littlefinger doing on the screen?  Not even getting into spoilers for the upcoming season, do you really see Littlefinger and the Bolton's working as allies?  

I think you just won the gold for mental gymnastics because I can't follow how you leaped through that at all.

There is nothing on the screen that supports your theory.

[JonSnow4President]

Theory.  I don't think that word means what you think it means.  

You seriously think what I'm saying isn't shown on screen?  You think I'm making up some grand explanation to explain his actions?  I'll grant you that he might have a different plan than what is shown, but what I'm saying is the plan shown on screen.

[Stangler]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why?  What do the Boltons give him?  What do they think he wants out of the alliance?  He has the backing of the Vale, for reason does he need the Boltons?  

The Boltons, too, are making some strange decisions, openly marrying the heir to a woman wanted for regicide, breaking the Lannister alliance.  

LF discusses the idea that Stannis will beat the Boltons and free her, and then she has Winterfell...but that could have been arranged w/out her marriage to Ramsay.  And then if the Boltons win...I guess she has revenge, LOL.

Sorry the entire plan from the perspective of all parties, Sansa, Littlefinger and the Boltons is yes, nonsense. 

The Boltons are not well liked in the North. They betrayed a lot of their fellow northmen at the red wedding and need to be made legitimate. The marriage does that for them. This is better explained in the book but is also communicated in the show. 

LF is manipulating Sansa.

LF gets to ally with the North. He is already allied with Highgarden and controls the Eyrie. If Stannis wins then he still controls the North through Sansa. If Stannis loses he is allied with the North through the Boltons. He also hopes to control the north through Sansa. 

LF is gaining a lot of power. 

[Stangler]

9 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Theory.  I don't think that word means what you think it means.  

You seriously think what I'm saying isn't shown on screen?  You think I'm making up some grand explanation to explain his actions?  I'll grant you that he might have a different plan than what is shown, but what I'm saying is the plan shown on screen.

If you think your theory has merit then defend it. I am not interested in guessing how you came up with your theory. 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Stangler said:

The Boltons are not well liked in the North. They betrayed a lot of their fellow northmen at the red wedding and need to be made legitimate. The marriage does that for them. This is better explained in the book but is also communicated in the show. 

LF is manipulating Sansa.

LF gets to ally with the North. He is already allied with Highgarden and controls the Eyrie. If Stannis wins then he still controls the North through Sansa. If Stannis loses he is allied with the North through the Boltons. He also hopes to control the north through Sansa. 

LF is gaining a lot of power. 

You still don't explain what LF gets out of the deal.  What benefit is "allied with the North" to him? Does he expect Roose Bolton is going to march his men South?  LF gets nothing out of the deal, hence, a non stupid Roose would be suspicious...why are you giving me Sansa Stark in return for nothing tangible except some cheesy line about the last time the Vale and North were allies they brought down the Targaryens?  

It is a completely different thing in the books that has little bearing on what the show is doing.  In the books they DO NOT break their alliance with the IT and go back into open revolution, like they have done in the show.  

[Tagganaro]

6 minutes ago, Stangler said:

The Boltons are not well liked in the North. They betrayed a lot of their fellow northmen at the red wedding and need to be made legitimate. The marriage does that for them. This is better explained in the book but is also communicated in the show. 

LF is manipulating Sansa.

LF gets to ally with the North. He is already allied with Highgarden and controls the Eyrie. If Stannis wins then he still controls the North through Sansa. If Stannis loses he is allied with the North through the Boltons. He also hopes to control the north through Sansa. 

LF is gaining a lot of power. 

Why though?  LF holds the same exact power by keeping Sansa safe and with him.  He's admittedly sending his biggest asset completely blind to people who are openly cruel, vindictive, and violent.  Additionally he's sending her right into a predicted battle area.  There is no reason for him to do this.

He could accomplish the same thing if he just held onto Sansa, kept her safe, and waited for the outcome of the predicted battle of Winterfell between Stannis and the Boltons.  Then, I don't know, he could also maybe do some easy scouting on Ramsay to figure out if he's a monster or not.  

For the guy who claims to know everything about everyone, there is a stunning lackadaisical approach to sending off his biggest asset into a war zone.

[Stangler]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

You still don't explain what LF gets out of the deal.  What benefit is "allied with the North" to him? Does he expect Roose Bolton is going to march his men South?  LF gets nothing out of the deal, hence, a non stupid Roose would be suspicious...why are you giving me Sansa Stark in return for nothing tangible except some cheesy line about the last time the Vale and North were allies they brought down the Targaryens?  

It is a completely different thing in the books that has little bearing on what the show is doing.  In the books they DO NOT break their alliance with the IT and go back into open revolution, like they have done in the show.  

You are asking for specifics that have not been shown yet. 

It is not hard to understand that the scheming LF who is trying to gain power would manipulate the situation so that one of the largest parts of the kingdom supports him. Alliances are not nonsensical.  

[Clash]

1 minute ago, Tagganaro said:

Why though?  LF holds the same exact power by keeping Sansa safe and with him.  He's admittedly sending his biggest asset completely blind to people who are openly cruel, vindictive, and violent.  Additionally he's sending her right into a predicted battle area.  There is no reason for him to do this.

He could accomplish the same thing if he just held onto Sansa, kept her safe, and waited for the outcome of the predicted battle of Winterfell between Stannis and the Boltons.  Then, I don't know, he could also maybe do some easy scouting on Ramsay to figure out if he's a monster or not.  

For the guy who claims to know everything about everyone, there is a stunning lackadaisical approach to sending off his biggest asset into a war zone.

Jeyne Poole

The unexpected consequence of leaving her out as an unimportant character.

[Stangler]

3 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Why though?  LF holds the same exact power by keeping Sansa safe and with him.  He's admittedly sending his biggest asset completely blind to people who are openly cruel, vindictive, and violent.  Additionally he's sending her right into a predicted battle area.  There is no reason for him to do this.

He could accomplish the same thing if he just held onto Sansa, kept her safe, and waited for the outcome of the predicted battle of Winterfell between Stannis and the Boltons.  Then, I don't know, he could also maybe do some easy scouting on Ramsay to figure out if he's a monster or not.  

For the guy who claims to know everything about everyone, there is a stunning lackadaisical approach to sending off his biggest asset into a war zone.

Having an alliance with one of the strongest of the old kingdoms is an increase in power. I am not sure how you think it isn't.

I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense that he doesn't know more about Ramsey being a monster although the alternative is that he just doesn't care. 

[Tagganaro]

1 minute ago, Stangler said:

Having an alliance with one of the strongest of the old kingdoms is an increase in power. I am not sure how you think it isn't.

I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense that he doesn't know more about Ramsey being a monster although the alternative is that he just doesn't care. 

I'm saying he gets that same exact alliance by holding onto Sansa.  If the Boltons win, then he can offer Sansa up in marriage and get the same thing, without the detriment of sending her blindly into a war zone.

[Stangler]

Just now, Tagganaro said:

I'm saying he gets that same exact alliance by holding onto Sansa.  If the Boltons win, then he can offer Sansa up in marriage and get the same thing, without the detriment of sending her blindly into a war zone.

That makes more sense.

I assume that has more to do with the nature of story telling than anything else. 

[Clash]

1 minute ago, Tagganaro said:

I'm saying he gets that same exact alliance by holding onto Sansa.  If the Boltons win, then he can offer Sansa up in marriage and get the same thing, without the detriment of sending her blindly into a war zone.

If the Boltons win, they are much stronger and in a better position to make more advantageous marriages than the suspected kingslayer Sansa Stark.

Allegedly.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

 

7 minutes ago, Stangler said:

The Boltons are not well liked in the North. They betrayed a lot of their fellow northmen at the red wedding and need to be made legitimate. The marriage does that for them. This is better explained in the book but is also communicated in the show. 

LF is manipulating Sansa.

LF gets to ally with the North. He is already allied with Highgarden and controls the Eyrie. If Stannis wins then he still controls the North through Sansa. If Stannis loses he is allied with the North through the Boltons. He also hopes to control the north through Sansa. 

LF is gaining a lot of power. 

The bolded part is perfectly clear. Yes, the Boltons need that - for themselves. But then why does Sansa need to give that legitimacy to them? That's the huge stumbling block that I can't get over.

It's like that classic old joke: "I thought you said your dog didn't bite!" "It's not my dog." The initial assumption being made - that Sansa would be able to get justice for, or revenge for, or gain some kind of advantage by marrying into the very same family that slaughtered hers and stole her birthright - is just so patently, massively absurd. As well as Not How The World Works. Any follow-on arguments about LF's motives or whatever - that accept the logic of Sansa marrying Ramsay Freakin' Bolton at face value - are just moot, as far as I can see because that initial obstacle is so unbelievably atrociously wrong and nonsensical.

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, Stangler said:

You are asking for specifics that have not been shown yet. 

It is not hard to understand that the scheming LF who is trying to gain power would manipulate the situation so that one of the largest parts of the kingdom supports him. Alliances are not nonsensical.  

Yes, it has been shown already.  We see Roose and LF make the deal and LF gets nothing tangible out of it.   And for that matter, why wouldn't the Boltons want to be allies of his without Sansa?  

For that matter, how exactly does he think he's going to control the North through Sansa when she becomes a prisoner of the Boltons?  We know his plan is to now invade and kill the Boltons...but he will have to kill EVERY SINGLE PERSON who saw him ride in with Sansa or his treachery against the IT will be known.  

What really makes no sense is why Roose didn't arrange an accident for LF...other than the plot demands it.  Then he has Sansa, no dodgy ally to worry about.

Sorry, everyone's actions in this plot are bat shit insane.

ETA...and the Bolton's are backstabbers and LF is a backstabber, so each party knows the other can't be trusted...thus, it is NOTHING like the Vale/Stormlands/North alliance that was built by Ned, Robert and Jon which was based on personal loyalty.

[Stangler]

Just now, The Ned's Little Girl said:

 

The bolded part is perfectly clear. Yes, the Boltons need that - for themselves. But then why does Sansa need to give that legitimacy to them? That's the huge stumbling block that I can't get over.

It's like that classic old joke: "I thought you said your dog didn't bite!" "It's not my dog." The initial assumption being made - that Sansa would be able to get justice for, or revenge for, or gain some kind of advantage by marrying into the very same family that slaughtered hers and stole her birthright - is just so patently, massively absurd. As well as Not How The World Works. Any follow-on arguments about LF's motives or whatever - that accept the logic of Sansa marrying Ramsay Freakin' Bolton at face value - are just moot, as far as I can see because that initial obstacle is so unbelievably atrociously wrong and nonsensical.

Sansa didn't want to do it.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

21 minutes ago, Stangler said:

The Boltons are not well liked in the North. They betrayed a lot of their fellow northmen at the red wedding and need to be made legitimate.

P.S. What fellow northmen? Where are they? I sure didn't see any around.

 

[Stangler]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, it has been shown already.  We see Roose and LF make the deal and LF gets nothing tangible out of it.   And for that matter, why wouldn't the Boltons want to be allies of his without Sansa?  

For that matter, how exactly does he think he's going to control the North through Sansa when she becomes a prisoner of the Boltons?  We know his plan is to now invade and kill the Boltons...but he will have to kill EVERY SINGLE PERSON who saw him ride in with Sansa or his treachery against the IT will be known.  

What really makes no sense is why Roose didn't arrange an accident for LF...other than the plot demands it.  Then he has Sansa, no dodgy ally to worry about.

Sorry, everyone's actions in this plot are bat shit insane.

We know his plan?