Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Stangler]

2 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

P.S. What fellow northmen? Where are they? I sure didn't see any around.

 

They are referenced in the show. Talked about a lot in the books. Books to a better job of this. 

[Tagganaro]

4 minutes ago, Clash said:

If the Boltons win, they are much stronger and in a better position to make more advantageous marriages than the suspected kingslayer Sansa Stark.

Allegedly.

lol.  It's not even allegedly true.  They are not in a better position to make a marriage...the whole point is the North hates them and they need a Stark, which is an element present in both the Books and the Show.  There is no marriage they can make that is more advantageous.  Indeed the marriage to Sansa is treated as almost necessary for them to hold onto power.

 

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Stangler said:

We know his plan?

Well I do.  He told Cersei Sansa was at WF and she agreed to make him Warden of the North in return for ousting the Boltons and killing Sansa.

Now, in reality the lords of the Vale might wonder how Sansa came to need saving, how she ended up married to Ramsay, when she and LF rode out together supposedly going to the Fingers.. LOL...but on the show, LF is going to rally the Vale to go save Sansa.  And then he will need another play to get rid of Cersei and Jamie, but whatever, reasons, creativity.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 minute ago, Stangler said:

They are referenced in the show. Talked about a lot in the books. Books to a better job of this. 

You are certainly correct about that. The books do a way better job of this.

Having no northmen in Winterfell to witness the wedding was a huge huge blunder but incredibly, it's not the biggest blunder by a long shot. The whole storyline was a massive clusterfuck that made zero sense and required everybody and his brother to act like total idiots.

 

[Stangler]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well I do.  He told Cersei Sansa was at WF and she agreed to make him Warden of the North in return for ousting the Boltons and killing Sansa.

Now, in reality the lords of the Vale might wonder how Sansa came to need saving, how she ended up married to Ramsay, when she and LF rode out together supposedly going to the Fingers.. LOL...but on the show, LF is going to rally the Vale to go save Sansa.  And then he will need another play to get rid of Cersei and Jamie, but whatever, reasons, creativity.

That is Cersei's plan for LF.

What is LF's plan for LF? AFAIK that has not been established yet. 

[JonSnow4President]

30 minutes ago, Stangler said:

If you think your theory has merit then defend it. I am not interested in guessing how you came up with your theory. 

Watch season 5.  I literally can't defending anything you deny the show created despite it being in front of your eyes.  Particularly the scene between Littlefinger and Cersei.  I really don't know what else to say.  It's like telling me to argue for why I "theorize" that Joffrey cut off Ned's head

[Stangler]

7 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

You are certainly correct about that. The books do a way better job of this.

Having no northmen in Winterfell to witness the wedding was a huge huge blunder but incredibly, it's not the biggest blunder by a long shot. The whole storyline was a massive clusterfuck that made zero sense and required everybody and his brother to act like total idiots.

 

The part in the book with Davos in White Harbor is one of my favorite parts. 

The show has a lot of limits with regards to time and resources. It is very hard for them to really get into all of the detail of the books and I think the show suffers for this. Especially when it gets into the political status of the North and the precarious position of the Boltons. 

The Boltons in the show are way stronger by themselves. 

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Stangler said:

That is Cersei's plan for LF.

What is LF's plan for LF? AFAIK that has not been established yet. 

1. Become Warden of the North.

2. Have Sansa back under his control [which of course is sheer luck, what with him leaving her at WF knowing Stannis was going to attack and marrying her off to her family's traitorous vassals and someone he knew nothing about].

*whether he intends to marry her or not, or kill the Lord of the Vale or not, we don't know. We know and he knows and Roose, before he lost his mind last season, knew that the Lannisters will never march any army all the way to Winterfell once winter has come.  Poor Stannis had to burn his daughter and he was only coming from Castle Black, LOL.  Everyone in Westeros would know that.  Again, making Roose's choices and now fear of a Lannister invasion incredibly stupid.

[Stangler]

2 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Watch season 5.  I literally can't defending anything you deny the show created despite it being in front of your eyes.  Particularly the scene between Littlefinger and Cersei.  I really don't know what else to say.  It's like telling me to argue for why I "theorize" that Joffrey cut off Ned's head

It is a theory to suggest you know LF's plan.

It is not a theory to suggest you heard what Cersei told LF what to do. 

[Stangler]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

1. Become Warden of the North.

2. Have Sansa back under his control [which of course is sheer luck, what with him leaving her at WF knowing Stannis was going to attack and marrying her off to her family's traitorous vassals and someone he knew nothing about].

*whether he intends to marry her or not, or kill the Lord of the Vale or not, we don't know. We know and he knows and Roose, before he lost his mind last season, knew that the Lannisters will never march any army all the way to Winterfell once winter has come.  Poor Stannis had to burn his daughter and he was only coming from Castle Black, LOL.  Everyone in Westeros would know that.  Again, making Roose's choices and now fear of a Lannister invasion incredibly stupid.

LF hasn't waged war yet and has spent a lot of time making other people fight for him. Now you think he is going to use the one army he has to attack a land that he is allied with because Cersei told him to. 

If that is what he does I will agree that the plot is nonsensical. 

Right now it is just a theory. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

16 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well I do.  He told Cersei Sansa was at WF and she agreed to make him Warden of the North in return for ousting the Boltons and killing Sansa.

Now, in reality the lords of the Vale might wonder how Sansa came to need saving, how she ended up married to Ramsay, when she and LF rode out together supposedly going to the Fingers.. LOL...but on the show, LF is going to rally the Vale to go save Sansa.  And then he will need another play to get rid of Cersei and Jamie, but whatever, reasons, creativity.

I will be very interested in how LF convinces them to do this and does not get implicated by Sansa herself for his hand in her "ordeal".

[A Ghost of Someone]

If the Boltons are removed in the North, the Starks are not going to bend the knee to Cersie or Bastard Tommen. They will be an independent Kingdom who will be first on the Others/White Walker's "Tour of Westeros". What is interesting is how loyal to Littlefinger the Vale will be when the Boltons are gone and who will they follow? Who else comes up from say... the Riverlands to help rid the Boltons may have a say in this too.

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I will be very interested in how LF convinces them to do this and does not get implicated by Sansa herself for his hand in her "ordeal".

You will never see that on screen.  All you will see is LF riding up in the nick of time....But, indeed, I do look forward to the awesome theories that I expect to be reading on this forum about how it will make absolute sense that the Vale lords would follow him to Winterfell....

[Stangler]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

You will never see that on screen.  All you will see is LF riding up in the nick of time....But, indeed, I do look forward to the awesome theories that I expect to be reading on this forum about how it will make absolute sense that the Vale lords would follow him to Winterfell....

In both the books and the show the people of the Eyrie favor the Starks and not the Lannisters. The Eyrie is a poor replacement for White Harbor but it wouldn't be out of the question. 

Overall your theory doesn't seem that likely IMO unless they show up as allies to the Boltons and then betray them. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

5 minutes ago, Stangler said:

The part in the book with Davos in White Harbor is one of my favorite parts. 

The show has a lot of limits with regards to time and resources. It is very hard for them to really get into all of the detail of the books and I think the show suffers for this. Especially when it gets into the political status of the North and the precarious position of the Boltons. 

The Boltons in the show are way stronger by themselves. 

Yeah, me too. 

I don't actually disagree with the show's decision to send Sansa to Winterfell. I mean, I really like her chapters in the Vale (the few we have); to me they're interesting as she watches and observes and starts to figure things out as well as struggle with maintaining her cover as Alayne Stone. I enjoyed that, a lot.

But it's easy to see that particular narrative simply cannot be made into a TV show. It's all very internal and TV of necessity has to be externally-oriented. Letting Sophie Turner sit around doing nothing for a season is also not an option.

But (and this is a big but!) why couldn't they have put some thought into it and not make Sansa behave like a moron? She knows how her society works, what a marriage to her symbolizes and means. A Sansa with two brain cells to rub together would never marry and confer legitimacy on the family that wiped out her own.

They really could have followed the book storyline and still included Sansa in it. She could have taken over the parts of Abel's washerwomen and snuck into Winterfell in disguise. Then she's the one who encounters Theon and convinces him to rescue Jeyne Poole.

After all, 1) Littlefinger owes her big-time after she saved his bacon in the Vale, so she has the leverage to force him to help her do this, and 2) Littlefinger had possession of Jeyne Poole, so Sansa could easily overhear some information about the fate LF had in store for her.

Presto, we have Sansa Stark in an action hero role - that they seemed to be hinting at what with her sashaying down the stairs in that Darth Sansa dress, giving LF the knowing eye. Character progression following the set-up they themselves had previously established! What a concept!

[A Ghost of Someone]

7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

You will never see that on screen.  All you will see is LF riding up in the nick of time....But, indeed, I do look forward to the awesome theories that I expect to be reading on this forum about how it will make absolute sense that the Vale lords would follow him to Winterfell....

I suspect a thing or two to happen to help LF out as the show runners will not rid us of him the same year as the boltons. I think Lord Royce dies in the battle of the Bastards. SweetRobin supposedly comes but who knows what that will mean?  Clearly LF wants Sansa for himself but what if he thinks she is going to rat him out and kills her if he can, making it look like the Boltons did it and Mel resurects her as Lady Stoneheart? Just a thought.

[Stangler]

1 minute ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Yeah, me too. 

I don't actually disagree with the show's decision to send Sansa to Winterfell. I mean, I really like her chapters in the Vale (the few we have); to me they're interesting as she watches and observes and starts to figure things out as well as struggle with maintaining her cover as Alayne Stone. I enjoyed that, a lot.

But it's easy to see that particular narrative simply cannot be made into a TV show. It's all very internal and TV of necessity has to be externally-oriented. Letting Sophie Turner sit around doing nothing for a season is also not an option.

But (and this is a big but!) why couldn't they have put some thought into it and not make Sansa behave like a moron? She knows how her society works, what a marriage to her symbolizes and means. A Sansa with two brain cells to rub together would never marry and confer legitimacy on the family that wiped out her own.

They really could have followed the book storyline and still included Sansa in it. She could have taken over the parts of Abel's washerwomen and snuck into Winterfell in disguise. Then she's the one who encounters Theon and convinces him to rescue Jeyne Poole.

After all, 1) Littlefinger owes her big-time after she saved his bacon in the Vale, so she has the leverage to force him to help her do this, and 2) Littlefinger had possession of Jeyne Poole, so Sansa could easily overhear some information about the fate LF had in store for her.

Presto, we have Sansa Stark in an action hero role - that they seemed to be hinting at what with her sashaying down the stairs in that Darth Sansa dress, giving LF the knowing eye. Character progression following the set-up they themselves had previously established! What a concept!

Sansa could have done a lot of things better but she didn't. I think the show does a good job showing that she really didn't want to marry Ramsey. 

Both her and Theon follow the same basic story of being held captive and figuring out how to escape which involves not only physically escaping but getting out from under their own fear and weakness. 

She will never be an action hero. She is now setting up to be a Queen or Lady. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Stangler said:

Sansa could have done a lot of things better but she didn't. I think the show does a good job showing that she really didn't want to marry Ramsey. 

If she really didn't want to marry Ramsay, she could have said no. And there's not a single thing Littlefinger could have done about it, with what she knows about Lysa.

Suspension of disbelief just doesn't go that far. It's simply not possible for me to believe that she was somehow too stupid or otherwise unable to use that juicy bit of info to get out of doing something that she really didn't want, that clearly would not have any benefit to her and would only benefit the Boltons and possibly LF. She doesn't even need to be a rocket scientist to figure out it out, either.

After that, everything about the entire episode at Winterfell just collapses under the weight of its own cynicism and cheap tawdry senselessness. Really, really awful and not believable in the slightest.

P.S. You're arguing valiantly  but I'm not going to be convinced. Thanks for the conversation, though!

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

3 hours ago, Stangler said:

In both the books and the show the people of the Eyrie favor the Starks and not the Lannisters. The Eyrie is a poor replacement for White Harbor but it wouldn't be out of the question. 

Overall your theory doesn't seem that likely IMO unless they show up as allies to the Boltons and then betray them. 

show and book, LF is an upjumped Lannister butt kisser. In the books, he got Lyn Cobray to trap the other lords declarant in a "guest rights" situation that bought him 1 year. He is bribing and buying up debts in the Vale to "coerce" the Lords into "accepting" him. On the show, he was practically on his way out the Moon Door for Lysa's death before Sansa "saved" him by them taking her word. She saved him with her word, she can still destroy him with it. He pimped her out to her rape, she is dangerous to him. Will be interesting how this plays out.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

If she really didn't want to marry Ramsay, she could have said no. And there's not a single thing Littlefinger could have done about it, with what she knows about Lysa.

Suspension of disbelief just doesn't go that far. It's simply not possible for me to believe that she was somehow too stupid or otherwise unable to use that juicy bit of info to get out of doing something that she really didn't want, that clearly would not have any benefit to her and would only benefit the Boltons and possibly LF. She doesn't even need to be a rocket scientist to figure out it out, either.

After that, everything about the entire episode at Winterfell just collapses under the weight of its own cynicism and cheap tawdry senselessness. Really, really awful and not believable in the slightest.

P.S. You're arguing valiantly  but I'm not going to be convinced. Thanks for the conversation, though!

 

Once Littlefinger got her outside of the Vale and away from the protection of Lord Royce (whom Littlefinger lied to his face), Sansa was in essence, Littlefinger's prisoner. If he wanted her to have a choice, he would have presented the offer to her while at Royce's stronghold, he did not. He waited till they arrived at Moat Cailin where she would have figured it out then. He pimped her out and she really did not seem to have a choice in meaning: "We can do this the easy way or the hard way" but it was clear to me, "you are going to Winterfell and marry Ramsay whether you like it or not". Littlefinger pimped her out and there MUST be some consequences for him for doing that to her, given all that happened to her because of it.