Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, Xcorpyo001 said:

If Sansa wants to do anything in the North, she’ll better find a way to get rid of that brain freeze of hers. And grow a pair while she’s at it. We are running out of time after all.

 

It’s a good thing Brienne didn’t forget how to fight in the middle of the battle. That would have been a little awkward.

 

 

Agree. It's getting tiresome to make excuses for Sansa's lack of anything. It's like it's always something happening to her that prevents her from develop as a character. Events are supposed to make you stronger, not freeze your growing. IRL, yeah, but not when telling a story.

[Grail King]

On 4/27/2016 at 6:16 PM, MrsStocksey said:

I don't see how this is out of character or changing her story arc.

Up until the end of season 4 she was still the little girl who wanted to be a princess. By the end of season 4 she'd told one lie, dressed up a bit Emo but it was all for Littlefingers approval not a vast character shift.  She thought she understood the game but she was still very naive.  

In season 5 she trusted Littlefinger, as the only person up until that moment who had helped her, and let herself believe marrying Ramsey was a good plan.  She was stupid and naive, believing she was playing the game but not really understanding it.  But I've never saw her as weak during season 5, physically maybe but she was still fighting the whole time and saved Theon from his madness. 

She is now growing up and understanding the game better, this time with people around her who she can actually trust and who really want to help her.  The slight smile and look between her and Brienne at the end of the scene was beautiful, a promise of what's to come. 

Also I think the moment with her and Theon holding each other to keep warm is possibly the first meaningful human contact she's had since the first season, if you take out a hug from her crazy aunt and a couple of creepy kisses from Littlefinger!

 

Yuppers, I smiled when I saw those faint lip curls.

[Grail King]

On 4/27/2016 at 6:18 PM, Risto said:

Sansa rejected Brienne because she saw her on the wedding and well, given that Brienne had more time to talk with Margaery about Renly than to console Sansa about her dead family. So, even though LF was there, Sansa decided on her own not to trust Brienne. As wrong as that was, it was her choice.

She did not reject her as much as saying your in a bad spot leave.

Brieene may be brave and honorable, but she was stupid in the inn, even Pod new that, then she goes and outs Sansa, does her oath with 2 or 3 Aryan Knights at he back, along with a ghost of Stannis killing Renly, yeah nice Sansa with a few words a shift of her eyes and a nod was all we needed to see that Sansa knew better then Brienne the situation.

[Grail King]

On 4/28/2016 at 10:15 AM, Cas Stark said:

He did not force her.  He gives her the choice to go back to the Vale or go to WF.

She sees the flayed Northerners when she walks back into WF and still does not tell LF to get her out of there and/or refuse to marry Ramsay.

 

No he doesn't ,S5E3 the High Sparrow ~15 minutes in overlooking Moat Calin: the choice was WF or to turn the horses around, no where is the Vale mentioned, just as he played with his wedding proposal words he's playing with turning back, except he could just as easily return to the inn and have the Boltons pick her up there or any hamlet in between.

Her Choice was truly no choice at all.

[Grail King]

On 4/28/2016 at 10:21 AM, Wilnova said:

But her choices were limited.

1. a) Either go to Winterfell and marry Ramsay and try to get justice or b)Turn back and go where? Would LF agree to her refusing? 

2. a) Take the risk, confide in Theon and get some help to escape or b)Not do anything at all

3. a) Death b)Go back to Ramsay

4. a) She puts her feet in freezing water and momentarily refuses to go in : Theon convinces her that the dogs chasing are far worse and she agrees and goes with him. b. Stay back and get shredded by dogs

Let's also note that her third and fourth decisions don't exactly lead to failure. Theon does help her and she escapes. I find Sansa's decisions very relatable. LF convinces her to get justice for her family. She decides to go ahead and do it. Once there, she realizes that she's in over head and decides to risk asking Theon's help to get out. When that fails, she makes her own attempt to get out and is confronted by Myranda. She makes a stand (Like Jon refusing to kill the old man at Queenscrow) and is helped by Theon (Like Jon getting helped by Summer) and manages to escape. The sudden shock of the water, makes her back up but Theon tells her the dogs are worse so she gets into the freezing water.  I have no issues with Show Sansa. She does make some mistakes and is in over her head but I like that she does choose and make decisions even if those choices are limited.

 And Book Sansa also makes many decisions which I would label wrong. She decided to not confess her identity to the Vale Lords (unlike the show version). She decided to go along with LF's plan of torturing and executing Marion for something he did not do. She decides to aid in the slow poisoning of Sweet Robin. Are these all the right decisions?

In my opinion yes, They didn't fight for Robb why would they for her, the jerk tried to rape her then covered up LF throwing Lysa out the window and drowning out her screams, and for SR theyre coming down a narrow winding trail on mules, what's her choice, nothing and the Lord of the Vale falls to his death, tied down making him look weak, or calming him down with drugs?

While the Maester did warn no more for ? 6 months he did it anyway with that stipulation, she's looking to get him down safely not take his title, that's LF  .

If I recall correctly her decision showed to be correct, because Robert Aryn seems to be thriving under her in the Alayne post GRRM put out.

[rosehustle1]

I think the issue is that the directors and writers framed the entire Sansa scene in a way that made her act out of character. I can understand her being weary of crossing cold water but again it's the framing of the scene that has implications. Why couldn't Sansa and Theon both show that they are weary of crossing but then support each other across, without one or the other appearing afraid? Remember Theon is even more traumatized by Ramsay and has lost fingers and toes but somehow he is easily able to conquer his fears and use a sword without problems? Also why not allow Sansa the spotlight in the scene with Brienne, give her character the time to regain herself, maybe stammer the words, but then remember them on her own? My issue isn't with Sansa it's with the writers scripting of her. She is a character that retreats into her courtesy and chivalry when confronted with traumatic situations. It is her coping mechanism. This would have been a great opportunity to allow her to utilize that trait in the scene. Again, these were conscious choices of the writers and directors just as it was a conscious choice to have LF speak for her in The Cross Roads Inn last year or to play her as naive without showing that this was merely a facade when she interacted with the Tyrells. The spirit of the swearing in scene isn't bad but it's the execution that I have issue with. Similarly, why was it vital to Brienne to gain this oath at this moment when they are still in danger? Again the writers created a scene that isn't very logical given how close they still are to the Boltons, and Brienne can not be sure there won't be more men after them.

[Grail King]

On 4/28/2016 at 1:47 PM, Maxxine said:

I don't have a huge problem with them surviving the jump mostly because in the book Theon and Jeyne survived the jump and it was adequately explained  (the built up snow) so I didn't think much about it in the show. Whether or not someone could survive that jump in real life idk but I'm not pressed over it. I have a bigger problem with them wading through a river in the middle of winter and no one acknowledging the hypothermia. 

 

On 4/28/2016 at 2:09 PM, JonSnow4President said:

Based on the published photos and Turner's interviews (where boss ass bitch comes from), I really doubt she's used as a mere rallying point.  

ETA: And I'm more willing to forgive that as mere ignorance Maxxine.  Looking through this very forum, you'll see people who don't think it was particularly dangerous, and the show hasn't exactly established the lethality of hypothermia.  It's such a longstanding TV/movie screw up that I just don't care at this point. However, the last Sansa/Theon scene, it very much established the lethality of gravity, and unlike the show, the book has a massively different amount of snow around the castle. 

Just FYI, from that height people can survive such falls, goto youtube and see.

Also just in the last few weeks people in the news their parachutes failed to open or they collided mid air and have survived with some injuries .

And further back someone mentioned for humans terminal velocity is ~ 90mph and from the height they jumped would not be achieved.

[Grail King]

On 4/29/2016 at 3:12 AM, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Book 6 spoilers [minor]

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They do survive, but they have sequels. Jeyne's nose got frozen, for example, and she might lose a bit.

 

I honestly don't know what you mean here, but if you mean the show, it's not really the case.

At the end of Season 4, they showed Sansa realising that LF lusted for her, and she was given this "moment of empowering" when they dressed her up as a more "adult" and "strong" Sansa. She literally told LF "I know what you want" after she saved his ass and lied on his behalf in front of the Lords. And such Lords pretty much told her "you're Ned Stark's daughter and we will protect you". Sansa had all the cards to triumph over Baelish. So, either D&d are that bad telling stories that they didn't realise all the signals pointed to Sansa being able to manipulate LF, or they simply changed their minds later.

The more likely scenario is, after they admitted the were planning this scene since Season 2, is that they wanted to make Sansa's decision a tragedy because it was a bad decision. Like "look, Sansa finally took something on her own but failed!!" because it would be more dramatic. Because honestly, no one in her right mind would do what Sansa did, willingly.

And seriously, it's very very stupid because Sansa is not a five years old, an she KNEW she would marry Ramsay, she KNEW what a wedding night involves, and she acted like she was just finding out right there what was going to happen. They presented her as this "hardened woman" dressed like a seductress to be a fearful child in the next season There is absolutely NOTHING in this plot making sense. 

I agree with this

But when she found out about this, nothing would have changed, LF would just hold up at the inn or village and have the Boltons come take her, no one ( if you believe it) LF  knew about Ramsey.

Oonce there she tried but finding Theon and seeing Ramsey in the flesh she quickly knew she was over her head, and weasal LF left her their with either real lies or unfulfilled hopes as far as Stannis.

Then after the rape, we see her trying to get some control and work on Theon, she tried the same mind game LF used on her, to remember his name, but he is to far gone by this point and had to find another way. 

[Grail King]

On 4/29/2016 at 3:29 AM, Neds Secret said:

I agree, it's like D$D make Sansa look that bloody naive that she believed that she could somehow avoid "the bedding" again, like she had when she married Tyrion. Sansa is still living in a fairytale world where a chivalrous Knight might save her from her wedding night tower  just in the nick of time with her chastity in tact, a second time no less. Sansa is either an idiot or the people in charge of her plot are, take your pick?

No, she just didn't know what a sadist he was, but I agree the writers didn't change the plot for her character, they kept it as if Jeyne was still in that room and castle.

Dumb, yes but I want to see how they extricate themselves.

[rosehustle1]

25 minutes ago, Grail King said:

No, she just didn't know what a sadist he was, but I agree the writers didn't change the plot for her character, they kept it as if Jeyne was still in that room and castle.

Actually she did know what a sadist he was based on Theon's physical condition and treatment. She also was warned by Myranda, granted I can understand her taking her with a grain of salt, but she has seen Ramsay's sick behavior at the dinner table. They played her both as Jeyne and as season 1 Sansa. Sansa of season 5 should have been picking up on these dynamics much sooner because of the situation endured living under Joffrey's cruelty for years. Again, it's the writers and directors faults for scripting her this way. She needs consistent characterization and she isn't getting it. The character should not regress just to fit a plot line.

The whole decision to put her in this plot to actually marry Ramsay was dumb. She should have been there as Alayne Stone set to marry Ramsay because LF wants it to appear that they have the Vale's support against Northern forces. Have LF have a secret pact with Manderly and Stannis. They know Sansa is really Alayne. She is never going to actually marry Ramsay that's the ruse. The same Northern Houses are inside WF and tensions rise. Sansa along with Theon and Lothar Brune (who will remain as her sworn shield because LF knows she needs protection, because LF does know about Ramsay) escape through the crypts (call back to Bran and Rickon escaping maybe) when things get out of hand because she knows the secret ways because she, like the rest of her siblings, know the castle.  Maybe Sansa lets in some of  Stannis' forces somehow.  Then maybe the reason LF is doing this whole thing is so once the Boltons are gone he has leverage for the Northern Lords to grant him the hand in marriage to Sansa. But it all backfires on him later. I'm sure there are plot holes here but it would have been much more interesting to see Sansa pretending to be Alayne and the Northern houses showing their growing dislike of the Boltons. I would have also kept Theon's heart tree scene. Maybe he warns her of Ramsay after over hearing his plans for her but by that point Sansa has already got a sense that even with LF's precautions (Lothar, the Northern Lords) she is still in danger and starts to create a back up plan. Any of this would have been better than what we actually got.

[Grail King]

5 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said:

Actually she did know what a sadist he was based on Theon's physical condition and treatment. She also was warned by Myranda, granted I can understand her taking her with a grain of salt, but she has seen Ramsay's sick behavior at the dinner table. They played her both as Jeyne and as season 1 Sansa. Sansa of season 5 should have been picking up on these dynamics much sooner because of the situation endured living under Joffrey's cruelty for years. Again, it's the writers and directors faults for scripting her this way. She needs consistent characterization and she isn't getting it. The character should not regress just to fit a plot line.

The whole decision to put her in this plot to actually marry Ramsay was dumb. She should have been there as Alayne Stone set to marry Ramsay because LF wants it to appear that they have the Vale's support against Northern forces. Have LF have a secret pact with Manderly and Stannis. They know Sansa is really Alayne. She is never going to actually marry Ramsay that's the ruse. The same Northern Houses are inside WF and tensions rise. Sansa along with Theon and Lothar Brune (who will remain as her sworn shield because LF knows she needs protection, because LF does know about Ramsay) escape through the crypts (call back to Bran and Rickon escaping maybe) when things get out of hand because she knows the secret ways because she, like the rest of her siblings, know the castle.  Maybe Sansa lets in some of  Stannis' forces somehow.  Then maybe the reason LF is doing this whole thing is so once the Boltons are gone he has leverage for the Northern Lords to grant him the hand in marriage to Sansa. But it all backfires on him later. I'm sure there are plot holes here but it would have been much more interesting to see Sansa pretending to be Alayne and the Northern houses showing their growing dislike of the Boltons. I would have also kept Theon's heart tree scene. Maybe he warns her of Ramsay after over hearing his plans for her but by that point Sansa has already got a sense that even with LF's precautions (Lothar, the Northern Lords) she is still in danger and starts to create a back up plan. Any of this would have been better than what we actually got.

She didn't know until well after she arrived, not before where I'm alluding to, once she saw Theon I think she may have felt he deserved what he got, but once the dinner started where Ramsey started to show his color her thoughts of oh shit started to form and whether we like or didn't like her confronting the Boltons verbally it was what she had to show her displeasure, the smile she gave seeing him squirm about Walda having a baby is also a indication she's going to twist that too, but she still would not expect him to brutalize her as he did on the wedding night..

The writers created a cluster fuck, now I want to see how they get out of it.

[rosehustle1]

1 minute ago, Grail King said:

She didn't know until well after she arrived, not before where I'm alluding to, once she saw Theon I think she may have felt he deserved what he got, but once the dinner started where Ramsey started to show his color her thoughts of oh shit started to form and whether we like or didn't like her confronting the Boltons verbally it was what she had to show her displeasure, the smile she gave seeing him squirm about Walda having a baby is also a indication she's going to twist that too, but she still would not expect him to brutalize her as he did on the wedding night..

See, that's the problem. Sansa of the books would never look at Theon, even though he's an enemy, and just be happy he's been tortured. That is not her character. In the books, she helps Lancel when he's injured and internally feels like she shouldn't be helping him, but she does it all the same. She's an interesting character because she shows empathy to people that most others wouldn't give a second thought. Her statement that she wished  she could have done to Theon what Ramsay did was so outside of who that character is. She may feel conflicted about Theon and they could definitely show her natural mistrust, but her not feeling any fear or even pity, after seeing his physical state is very weird. This is a man who is the heir of the Iron Islands, a valuable hostage, and he is treated like this? This should set off warning bells. Also the mind games Ramsay played with her at the dinner table should be enough for her to realize this guy has a similar sick sense of humor to Joffrey. The reason all of this happened was because the writers knew that this plot didn't make sense if Sansa actually retained some of her development. So, they regressed her to her season 1 self and made her a victim again. No matter what faux empowerment they give her this season it won't erase the fact that they didn't believe her prior trauma was enough for her to want to regain her home, no she had to be raped to get her 'motivation.' It's looking like a rape=empowerment story line which I've seen before and has terrible implications of how they view this subject matter. I don't see the writers ever digging themselves out of this hole, tbh.

[Grail King]

5 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

I never expected her to do something beyond her capabilities. She can’t run or fight well because she never put much stock on physical training because she spend that time learning from her maester, septa, tutors and her highborn family.

 

So I understand the fact that she doesn’t pick a sword to kill a couple Bolton soldiers, or warg a dog or convince them to betray the Boltons and join her little party.

 

But something directly connected to the very thing she should excel at should be doable. She is slotted to be a unifying presence in the North, the Queen of the North or at least the face of the Stark family. In order to become that, she will have to start to act like it. And not being able to say two lines under duress doesn’t bode well for her future.

 

It’s like an athlete spends a decade training like crazy to win the gold during the olimpics. Everyone is certain he’ll ace it, but the day of the event he forgets to set his alarm clock and misses the competition.She is entitled to make mistakes, nobody’s perfect, but when it counts she better be able to do the things everybody knows she can do.

 

Will she have Pod talking for her when she’ll be dealing with the northern lords? Don’t you think they’ll test her mettle to see if she’s worth the danger they’ll be in if they chose to accept her as their liege lady?

 

She’s only 13 as of season 1.

 

Stannis Baratheon: "The Lady of Bear Island and a child of ten. I asked her to commit her House to my cause. That's her response."

 

Jon Snow: "[reading aloud] 'BearIsland knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is Stark'."

 

That’s a normal girl of 10 as of season 5. At least normal for the North.

 

If Sansa wants to do anything in the North, she’ll better find a way to get rid of that brain freeze of hers. And grow a pair while she’s at it. We are running out of time after all.

 

It’s a good thing Brienne didn’t forget how to fight in the middle of the battle. That would have been a little awkward.

 

 

A 10 year old safely in her warm home, hasn't seen her father killed,been brutalized, forced to marry a disfigured dwarf, threaten with rape, being told of her brother and mother's gruesome death, manipulated into a marriage to a sicko, then escaping going through snow, icy water and only a broken man to help her, switch the girls then we can talk norm , not just for the north but anywhere,

[Xcorpyo001]

9 hours ago, Grail King said:

A 10 year old safely in her warm home, hasn't seen her father killed,been brutalized, forced to marry a disfigured dwarf, threaten with rape, being told of her brother and mother's gruesome death, manipulated into a marriage to a sicko, then escaping going through snow, icy water and only a broken man to help her, switch the girls then we can talk norm , not just for the north but anywhere,

 

Yeah, Lyanna Mormont is the lady of Bear Island at age ten because she won the lottery.  I’m sure nothing bad ever happened to that pampered little brat or her family. Oh wait.

I seriously don't understand you. Judging by your avatar, I'd say you actually like her character. You're telling me you have 0 issues with the lack of character development so far? If so, this conversation is an exercise in futility. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

I seriously don't understand you. Judging by your avatar, I'd say you actually like her character. You're telling me you have 0 issues with the lack of character development so far? If so, this conversation is an exercise in futility. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I have a lot of issues with TV Sansa, especially having in mind all the opportunities writers of TV show missed with such wonderful character she is in the books.

[Xcorpyo001]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

I have a lot of issues with TV Sansa, especially having in mind all the opportunities writers of TV show missed with such wonderful character she is in the books.

 

I guess for the casual viewer, all the character development they need is seeing Sansa in a new dress. 

Sansa is wearing a black dress. Awesome. Clearly she just become a master manipulator. Let the hype begin.

And next season she agrees to LF's plan of avenging her family by willingly marrying Ramsay. How is that plan working out for her so far?!?

I'm positive she'll get a new outfit this season. Something with fur and a direwolf on it. And that will be all they need to make us believe she just become the most badass queen the world has ever seen. It's like she's in an RPG and the armor gives her instant stats increases. 

 

[Mladen]

6 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

I guess for the casual viewer, all the character development they need is seeing Sansa in a new dress. 

Sansa is wearing a black dress. Awesome. Clearly she just become a master manipulator. Let the hype begin.

And next season she agrees to LF's plan of avenging her family by willingly marrying Ramsay. How is that plan working out for her so far?!?

I'm positive she'll get a new outfit this season. Something with fur and a direwolf on it. And that will be all they need to make us believe she just become the most badass queen the world has ever seen. It's like she's in an RPG and the armor gives her instant stats increases. 

 

I don't disagree with you... Simply, producers have done abysmal work with Sansa. 

[Clash]

9 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

If Sansa is supposed to be a doormat, then why is her purpose in the story?

It's like watching Cinderella and expecting she remains being the stepmother's servant because that's who she really is.

As the last remaining Stark (as far as LF knows) to rally the northern houses. Just a figurehead in other words. She coulod be a dribbling idiot but she'd stiill be a Stark.

[Xcorpyo001]

On the up side, the showrunners still have time do change things this season. All they need to do is give her a win. She needs to win Winterfell by herself, with the forces she can gather, without help from an Deus ex Machina type event.

On the other hand, if the fight goes badly, then out of a sudden, LF comes to save the day, all her work will be futile. She will still be the little girl that needs the help of a man everytime things get serious.The damsel in distress syndrome strikes again. 

And I’m certain it will happen that way, because D&D won’t pass a chance to have a “The Eagles are coming” moment in the show. And by that I mean they are saved by the knights of the Vale, whose sigil is an actual giant eagle(well, giant falcon, but semantics).

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

15 minutes ago, Clash said:

As the last remaining Stark (as far as LF knows) to rally the northern houses. Just a figurehead in other words. She coulod be a dribbling idiot but she'd stiill be a Stark.

I think you're not getting what I'm trying to say.

Yes, Rickon's dead body could be used to rally the North too, that's not the point. If you have a character being a dribbling idiot that does stuff just because the plot says so, then you're a terrible storyteller. The character needs to earn it through development. Otherwise, what's the point on having such character?