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Ellaria said to Have Takena An Empowering Move


Daeron Velar

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http://www.bustle.com/articles/156653-ellaria-takes-over-dorne-on-game-of-thrones-its-an-empowering-move

From the article cited above:

 

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Say what you will about how cruelly this series can treat their female characters, but during Sunday night's Season 6 premiere, Ellaria Sand took a powerful stand on Game of Thrones. Tired of watching in the shadows as the men all around her use their power in terrible ways,Ellaria decided to take over Dorne for herself by murdering Doran Martell along with his few followers. And, while the act itself was impressive, her speech was what proved that her leadership will make for a nice change.

Doran may have allowed women to be constantly raped without doing anything. But, all of that is about to change now that she's in charge. "Your son is weak just like you, and weak men will never rule Dorne again," she said as she killed him. Ellaria proved to us last season that she meant business when she made the bold move of killing Myrcella Lannister. That was done when she had very little power, so imagine what she will be capable of now that she is the one sitting on the Dorne throne.

On the whole, this is a very amazing twist for her character's storyline. Female leaders are kind of awesome. (Looking at you, Dany!) And I am certainly all about female empowerment on this show, especially considering how poorly some of them have been treated in the past few seasons. (Looking at you, Sansa!) Dorne may have admittedly been a bit of a snoozefest last season, but now that this power dynamic has changed, I'd say things are about to get pretty interesting. Cersei may have just met her match.

 

Can I just say that this person does not know what they are talking about? Proving her leadership? Amazing twist? Doran may have allowed women to be raped constantly in Dorne? I do not think murdering innocent children or even murdering a man that was trying to prevent full blown war is empowering what so ever in fact that might as well be the opposite! Let us not talk about the whole issue regarding Tyrstanes murder!

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This article is sad to read, specially in a supposedly feminist magazine.

It's a astounding nonsense saying that Doran allowed women to be "abused and raped by men without retribution". There was only one rape: precisely Doran's sister. And murdering two teenegers (one of them the nephew of the raped woman they claim to avenge) is not something that can be presented in any way, shape, or form as "empowering women".

 

 

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Perhaps this simply comes from a more general read of the show? Women are badly abused, but in Dorne what little we saw of Doran painted him as a calm and reasonable ruler.

From an equality perspective I guess it shows that women are just as capable of making poor decisions as the men, but this show is revenge heavy already. 

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There is a current problem in media right now, imo. An almost pathological need to label everything as "feminism" and judge it accordingly. Like, "that show isn't feminist enough! it's trash!", despite there is no obligation to portray feminism in a show (which isn't the same as portraying good female characters and not even that is an obligation). Also, many people want to fit in so bad with the narrative, that everything is feminist. Like Mothra. Yes, the Japanese Moth is now a "feminist icon". No kidding. Google it. That's why I've simply tried to stay apart from that media: it's gone crazy, it's like Syndrome said, "everything is feminist so no one is any more".

Nevertheless, GoT is part of this business and they need to fit the show as "feminist" too. Unlike the book, Martin doesn't present his female characters as "feminists" (he himself doesn't identify as such, for whatever reason, just like the 60% of americans, and the 93% of people in UK), he simply writes good female characters that can be either good or bad people. He's not pursuing a feminist narrative as many show do: it's like the have already a set of rules they HAVE to follow to have their shows approved by this media judging them. GOT is not different: they have women in position of power going all "men suck!!", which is sadly a terrible awful ideology now common in many young females. In the same way, Cersei is, imo, a critic of radical feminism: Cersei starts by saying "I totally deserved a chance because I've suffered the most!". At first, you kinda feel she's right, then you realise that "suffering" isn't a good reason to be given a chance in anything. We then realise that Cersei hates all men because she hates herself. She's not different from known feminists such as the MacDworkins.

Now, what happens with Dorne is highly ironic because Dorne is the one place in Westeros that, without being actually "feminist", believes in equality due to a Queen who proved them all women were as capable as men. If she could rule wisely, why not the next women? And Dorne isn't even the only one. Remember that Lannister women who said "go, kill my sons I'll make more?" or Queen Alysanne causing a famous fight between her and Jaehaerys after he skip their daughter as heir? Or Rhaenyra? They were, on their way, the first feminists of Westeros.

The perception of "feminism" through medieval times is sadly judged with our modern vision. Women back then weren't pursuing "equal rights" but they were very aware that they had to work harder to let their voices heard. Many of them went to war (not disguised as boys, but as proud women), while some stood behind to protect their lands. There was no delicate flowers in the middle ages, and none of them were either trying to #killallmen like Elaria and her Water Worms just did. :dunno: Does the fact that they acknowledged Doran Martell as their Prince makes them lesser beings? Because he's a man and they are women? How stupid ideology is this? Are they saying that all noble women from the past were wusses because they weren't secretly trying to murder all of the males?

I guess D&d are trying to make GoT "feminist" accordingly to all the wrong notions of modern feminism, and not even to Martin's work, which is more accurate to the real period he based ASOIAF of. The most "badass" their women are, the more "feminists" they are.

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2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is a current problem in media right now, imo. An almost pathological need to label everything as "feminism" and judge it accordingly. Like, "that show isn't feminist enough! it's trash!", despite there is no obligation to portray feminism in a show (which isn't the same as portraying good female characters and not even that is an obligation). Also, many people want to fit in so bad with the narrative, that everything is feminist. Like Mothra. Yes, the Japanese Moth is now a "feminist icon". No kidding. Google it. That's why I've simply tried to stay apart from that media: it's gone crazy, it's like Syndrome said, "everything is feminist so no one is any more".

Nevertheless, GoT is part of this business and they need to fit the show as "feminist" too. Unlike the book, Martin doesn't present his female characters as "feminists" (he himself doesn't identify as such, for whatever reason, just like the 60% of americans, and the 93% of people in UK), he simply writes good female characters that can be either good or bad people. He's not pursuing a feminist narrative as many show do: it's like the have already a set of rules they HAVE to follow to have their shows approved by this media judging them. GOT is not different: they have women in position of power going all "men suck!!", which is sadly a terrible awful ideology now common in many young females. In the same way, Cersei is, imo, a critic of radical feminism: Cersei starts by saying "I totally deserved a chance because I've suffered the most!". At first, you kinda feel she's right, then you realise that "suffering" isn't a good reason to be given a chance in anything. We then realise that Cersei hates all men because she hates herself. She's not different from known feminists such as the MacDworkins.

Now, what happens with Dorne is highly ironic because Dorne is the one place in Westeros that, without being actually "feminist", believes in equality due to a Queen who proved them all women were as capable as men. If she could rule wisely, why not the next women? And Dorne isn't even the only one. Remember that Lannister women who said "go, kill my sons I'll make more?" or Queen Alysanne causing a famous fight between her and Jaehaerys after he skip their daughter as heir? Or Rhaenyra? They were, on their way, the first feminists of Westeros.

The perception of "feminism" through medieval times is sadly judged with our modern vision. Women back then weren't pursuing "equal rights" but they were very aware that they had to work harder to let their voices heard. Many of them went to war (not disguised as boys, but as proud women), while some stood behind to protect their lands. There was no delicate flowers in the middle ages, and none of them were either trying to #killallmen like Elaria and her Water Worms just did. :dunno: Does the fact that they acknowledged Doran Martell as their Prince makes them lesser beings? Because he's a man and they are women? How stupid ideology is this? Are they saying that all noble women from the past were wusses because they weren't secretly trying to murder all of the males?

I guess D&d are trying to make GoT "feminist" accordingly to all the wrong notions of modern feminism, and not even to Martin's work, which is more accurate to the real period he based ASOIAF of. The most "badass" their women are, the more "feminists" they are.

Let's be honest, a lot of people have just lost their minds. We live in a world where we all have to blame problems on a group. I think humanity has lost its perspective because the way the internet is, we immersive ourselves in an echo chamber and it only gets louder and louder.

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6 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is a current problem in media right now, imo. An almost pathological need to label everything as "feminism" and judge it accordingly. Like, "that show isn't feminist enough! it's trash!", despite there is no obligation to portray feminism in a show (which isn't the same as portraying good female characters and not even that is an obligation). Also, many people want to fit in so bad with the narrative, that everything is feminist. Like Mothra. Yes, the Japanese Moth is now a "feminist icon". No kidding. Google it. That's why I've simply tried to stay apart from that media: it's gone crazy, it's like Syndrome said, "everything is feminist so no one is any more".

Nevertheless, GoT is part of this business and they need to fit the show as "feminist" too. Unlike the book, Martin doesn't present his female characters as "feminists" (he himself doesn't identify as such, for whatever reason, just like the 60% of americans, and the 93% of people in UK), he simply writes good female characters that can be either good or bad people. He's not pursuing a feminist narrative as many show do: it's like the have already a set of rules they HAVE to follow to have their shows approved by this media judging them. GOT is not different: they have women in position of power going all "men suck!!", which is sadly a terrible awful ideology now common in many young females. In the same way, Cersei is, imo, a critic of radical feminism: Cersei starts by saying "I totally deserved a chance because I've suffered the most!". At first, you kinda feel she's right, then you realise that "suffering" isn't a good reason to be given a chance in anything. We then realise that Cersei hates all men because she hates herself. She's not different from known feminists such as the MacDworkins.

Now, what happens with Dorne is highly ironic because Dorne is the one place in Westeros that, without being actually "feminist", believes in equality due to a Queen who proved them all women were as capable as men. If she could rule wisely, why not the next women? And Dorne isn't even the only one. Remember that Lannister women who said "go, kill my sons I'll make more?" or Queen Alysanne causing a famous fight between her and Jaehaerys after he skip their daughter as heir? Or Rhaenyra? They were, on their way, the first feminists of Westeros.

The perception of "feminism" through medieval times is sadly judged with our modern vision. Women back then weren't pursuing "equal rights" but they were very aware that they had to work harder to let their voices heard. Many of them went to war (not disguised as boys, but as proud women), while some stood behind to protect their lands. There was no delicate flowers in the middle ages, and none of them were either trying to #killallmen like Elaria and her Water Worms just did. :dunno: Does the fact that they acknowledged Doran Martell as their Prince makes them lesser beings? Because he's a man and they are women? How stupid ideology is this? Are they saying that all noble women from the past were wusses because they weren't secretly trying to murder all of the males?

I guess D&d are trying to make GoT "feminist" accordingly to all the wrong notions of modern feminism, and not even to Martin's work, which is more accurate to the real period he based ASOIAF of. The most "badass" their women are, the more "feminists" they are.

 

4 hours ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

Let's be honest, a lot of people have just lost their minds. We live in a world where we all have to blame problems on a group. I think humanity has lost its perspective because the way the internet is, we immersive ourselves in an echo chamber and it only gets louder and louder.

You are both spot on.

Yet me in my naive mind didn't expect this sort of reaction from "reviewers" (however intellectually shallow and ethically void they may be). To write such garbage about a show they were supposed to scrutinize. Sure I expected such things from twitter from random users who just watch the show occasionally. After all, there is no accountability. But this is just mind-numbingly stupid as the reviewer who praised Sansa's decision to cover Littlefinger because "hell, he helped (!!?) her so much. I'd sure stick with him too!" blatantly forgetting that he is the prime reason her life was destroyed in the first place.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/04/game-of-thrones-needs-a-sand-snakes-spinoff.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/04/25/game_of_thrones_premiere_the_red_woman_the_worst_person_in_westeros_is_all.html

Seriously? "Bordeline misandrist heroes"? "Misandrist utopia"? I think "sociopath 'feminism'" is really the best term to describe this shit. Not even the "straw feminism" portrayed in embarrassingly cheesy exploitation movies begins to cover it.

Are people wanting to turn into real life caricatures? It's cringey, disturbing and patently ridiculous. They are no better than the absurd crowd that had a boiling, misogynistic hate for Skyler for daring to oppose her drug dealing, murderous husband.

I love that a scene in which three innocent, reasonable men are butchered by vicious, remorseless and hypocritical child killers that happen to be women somehow corroborates the on-going theme that "men are the worst". What!?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Ghost from Winterfell said:

 

You are both spot on.

Yet me in my naive mind didn't expect this sort of reaction from "reviewers" (however intellectually shallow and ethically void they may be). To write such garbage about a show they were supposed to scrutinize. Sure I expected such things from twitter from random users who just watch the show occasionally. After all, there is no accountability. But this is just mind-numbingly stupid as the reviewer who praised Sansa's decision to cover Littlefinger because "hell, he helped (!!?) her so much. I'd sure stick with him too!" blatantly forgetting that he is the prime reason her life was destroyed in the first place.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/04/game-of-thrones-needs-a-sand-snakes-spinoff.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/04/25/game_of_thrones_premiere_the_red_woman_the_worst_person_in_westeros_is_all.html

Seriously? "Bordeline misandrist heroes"? "Misandrist utopia"? I think "sociopath 'feminism'" is really the best term to describe this shit. Not even the "straw feminism" portrayed in embarrassingly cheesy exploitation movies begins to cover it.

Are people wanting to turn into real life caricatures? It's cringey, disturbing and patently ridiculous. They are no better than the absurd crowd that had a boiling, misogynistic hate for Skyler for daring to oppose her drug dealing, murderous husband.

I love that a scene in which three innocent, reasonable men are butchered by vicious, remorseless and hypocritical child killers that happen to be women somehow corroborates the on-going theme that "men are the worst". What!?

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Ghost from Winterfell said:

 

You are both spot on.

Yet me in my naive mind didn't expect this sort of reaction from "reviewers" (however intellectually shallow and ethically void they may be). To write such garbage about a show they were supposed to scrutinize. Sure I expected such things from twitter from random users who just watch the show occasionally. After all, there is no accountability. But this is just mind-numbingly stupid as the reviewer who praised Sansa's decision to cover Littlefinger because "hell, he helped (!!?) her so much. I'd sure stick with him too!" blatantly forgetting that he is the prime reason her life was destroyed in the first place.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/04/game-of-thrones-needs-a-sand-snakes-spinoff.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/04/25/game_of_thrones_premiere_the_red_woman_the_worst_person_in_westeros_is_all.html

Seriously? "Bordeline misandrist heroes"? "Misandrist utopia"? I think "sociopath 'feminism'" is really the best term to describe this shit. Not even the "straw feminism" portrayed in embarrassingly cheesy exploitation movies begins to cover it.

Are people wanting to turn into real life caricatures? It's cringey, disturbing and patently ridiculous. They are no better than the absurd crowd that had a boiling, misogynistic hate for Skyler for daring to oppose her drug dealing, murderous husband.

I love that a scene in which three innocent, reasonable men are butchered by vicious, remorseless and hypocritical child killers that happen to be women somehow corroborates the on-going theme that "men are the worst". What!?

 

 

 

 

The thing is, I just got done talking about this on reddit, the internet has proven to be a world where we have all the freedom in it, but that freedom has made us turn into raging hypocrits and extremists who have lost their vision. Feminists have legit complains, but stuff like this demeans their message. The way we respond to things is so silly and childish, that we have lost our will to learn all sides of the story.

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8 hours ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

This might be the most mentally disabled thing I have read all day, and I have been on reddit.

 

7 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I guess D&d are trying to make GoT "feminist" accordingly to all the wrong notions of modern feminism, and not even to Martin's work, which is more accurate to the real period he based ASOIAF of. The most "badass" their women are, the more "feminists" they are.

 

4 hours ago, Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies said:

Thanks, now I have cancer. 

 

30 minutes ago, Ghost from Winterfell said:

I love that a scene in which three innocent, reasonable men are butchered by vicious, remorseless and hypocritical child killers that happen to be women somehow corroborates the on-going theme that "men are the worst". What!?

 

 

:agree:  Now I have to go be sick, because of the cancer.

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5 hours ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

Let's be honest, a lot of people have just lost their minds. We live in a world where we all have to blame problems on a group. I think humanity has lost its perspective because the way the internet is, we immersive ourselves in an echo chamber and it only gets louder and louder.

Yep.

Even so, the idea that killing your nephew, who never demeaned any women on the show, and your common law brother in law, who also never demeaned any women on the show, and indeed was determined to protect a young woman from being murdered for a crime committed before she was born...to see this is a strike for "feminism" and women taking power is gross, sickening and immoral.  Really.

Who would even want to be ruled by a bunch of revenge crazy nutters who think nothing of killing their immediate family when they can't get their way, because: women.?

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This article is a bunch of nonsense. The issues here, in my view, are not remotely related to "empowerment" or "gaining agency" and trying to cast it in that light is akin to trying to drive a round peg into a square whole.

The real issues here is about staging a coup, against lawful authority, to start a war. If you are going to do something like that, you had better be sure you have a really, really, good reason to do that and believe you actually have a chance of winning. Thousands of people will be affected by your decision. You better know what in the fuck you are doing.

Trying to make this into some kind of "bad ass" feminist empowerment is dumb, particularly in a place like Dorne where women do lawfully succeed to power.
 

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Such god-awful logic I don't know where to start. "Cersei may have just met her match"? Cersei isn't the kind of character you want to be equals with.

Oberyn wouldn't have wanted his only brother and nephew killed. This wasn't empowering in a positive sense. Ellaria just became a heartless villain. For Christ's sakes, Doran is dying in a pool of his own blood calling out for his son but Ellaria just mocks him? And then they corner Trystane and kill him in cold blood.

How can anyone see this in a positive light?

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A lot of people in certain social webs do advocate for the genocide of whites and males. I am honestly not surprised some would see the Snakes as "heroes". But come one... being this "strong feminist chic" overthrows the terrible writing? This is another thing. media also has a fetishism for minorities, not inclusiveness: minorities. I've seen this: "Hey, I didn't give a damn about Star Wars, but not they have "people of colour!", I might give it a chance". So, fuck stories, mythology, narrative, themes. They have poc so, it's going to be awesome!.

The Snakes and Elaria are women of coulour (gosh, how I hate that term!). SO WHAT. SO THE F WHAT. Their storyline is the worst of the whole show. Giving them a spin-off would be a waist of time and money.

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4 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

A lot of people in certain social webs do advocate for the genocide of whites and males. I am honestly not surprised some would see the Snakes as "heroes". But come one... being this "strong feminist chic" overthrows the terrible writing? This is another thing. media also has a fetishism for minorities, not inclusiveness: minorities. I've seen this: "Hey, I didn't give a damn about Star Wars, but not they have "people of colour!", I might give it a chance". So, fuck stories, mythology, narrative, themes. They have poc so, it's going to be awesome!.

The Snakes and Elaria are women of coulour (gosh, how I hate that term!). SO WHAT. SO THE F WHAT. Their storyline is the worst of the whole show. Giving them a spin-off would be a waist of time and money.

I felt that this was the real reason she supports what Ellaria and the Sand Snakes did. It bothers me that she has her facts wrong, saying women were raped "without retribution" under Doran's rule which is untrue. She doesn't even care Myrcella, an innocent young woman, was killed for something she wasn't even involved in.

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Female leaders are kind of awesome. (Looking at you, Dany!)

Lol...Dany has been a terrible leader so far. She also burned people alive with no proof. Without her more experienced advisors, she'd be dead. Like 3% of what she's done can be classified as awesome. 2% of that was burning Kraznys, which had nothing to do with her leading. 

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10 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is a current problem in media right now, imo. An almost pathological need to label everything as "feminism" and judge it accordingly. Like, "that show isn't feminist enough! it's trash!", despite there is no obligation to portray feminism in a show (which isn't the same as portraying good female characters and not even that is an obligation). Also, many people want to fit in so bad with the narrative, that everything is feminist. Like Mothra. Yes, the Japanese Moth is now a "feminist icon". No kidding. Google it. That's why I've simply tried to stay apart from that media: it's gone crazy, it's like Syndrome said, "everything is feminist so no one is any more".

Nevertheless, GoT is part of this business and they need to fit the show as "feminist" too. Unlike the book, Martin doesn't present his female characters as "feminists" (he himself doesn't identify as such, for whatever reason, just like the 60% of americans, and the 93% of people in UK), he simply writes good female characters that can be either good or bad people. He's not pursuing a feminist narrative as many show do: it's like the have already a set of rules they HAVE to follow to have their shows approved by this media judging them. GOT is not different: they have women in position of power going all "men suck!!", which is sadly a terrible awful ideology now common in many young females. In the same way, Cersei is, imo, a critic of radical feminism: Cersei starts by saying "I totally deserved a chance because I've suffered the most!". At first, you kinda feel she's right, then you realise that "suffering" isn't a good reason to be given a chance in anything. We then realise that Cersei hates all men because she hates herself. She's not different from known feminists such as the MacDworkins.

Now, what happens with Dorne is highly ironic because Dorne is the one place in Westeros that, without being actually "feminist", believes in equality due to a Queen who proved them all women were as capable as men. If she could rule wisely, why not the next women? And Dorne isn't even the only one. Remember that Lannister women who said "go, kill my sons I'll make more?" or Queen Alysanne causing a famous fight between her and Jaehaerys after he skip their daughter as heir? Or Rhaenyra? They were, on their way, the first feminists of Westeros.

The perception of "feminism" through medieval times is sadly judged with our modern vision. Women back then weren't pursuing "equal rights" but they were very aware that they had to work harder to let their voices heard. Many of them went to war (not disguised as boys, but as proud women), while some stood behind to protect their lands. There was no delicate flowers in the middle ages, and none of them were either trying to #killallmen like Elaria and her Water Worms just did. :dunno: Does the fact that they acknowledged Doran Martell as their Prince makes them lesser beings? Because he's a man and they are women? How stupid ideology is this? Are they saying that all noble women from the past were wusses because they weren't secretly trying to murder all of the males?

I guess D&d are trying to make GoT "feminist" accordingly to all the wrong notions of modern feminism, and not even to Martin's work, which is more accurate to the real period he based ASOIAF of. The most "badass" their women are, the more "feminists" they are.

Well stated and agreed as per usual about 90% ha. I was with you with everything up through the last paragraph.

IMO i didn't get the sense that D&D were doing this to pursue a modern day feminist cliche. That was just the commentary about their work, but not their intent. They were just telling their story (regardless of how much I think they screwed up Dorne), and I think this will turn out to be a negative move for the parties involved rather than an empowering one.

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2 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Well stated and agreed as per usual about 90% ha. I was with you with everything up through the last paragraph.

IMO i didn't get the sense that D&D were doing this to pursue a modern day feminist cliche. That was just the commentary about their work, but not their intent. They were just telling their story (regardless of how much I think they screwed up Dorne), and I think this will turn out to be a negative move for the parties involved rather than an empowering one.

Ok you do have a point. I'll investigate further on this. I honestly HONESTLY got mad at that article. It's misandrist and I hate HATE that misandry is becoming popular and edgy because "feminism, right?". The amount of people actually supporting this, asking for male genocide, falsely accusing men and ruining their lives and making men losing their jobs just for disagreeing, is disgusting.

But I like to talk with numbers and data in hand, so, as I said, I'll investigate further. We get mad at GoT for apologising female violence, we should do the same about male violence: they have also overused that with Theon and Gendry, and now, they portrayed the murder of three innocent men because "empowering!". Awful.

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