Ellaria said to Have Takena An Empowering Move

[Wall Flower]

Speaking as a cranky old feminist, it really seems like a pretty silly and poorly informed article. That said, I'm not really getting why bad writing by two 'dudebros' is an indictment of modern feminism.

As an antidote, there are a number of ASOIAF sites with a feminist perspective that I enjoy and none of them are happy about what the show has done with the Dornish subplot (or the books generally).

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

What a horrible article that completely misunderstood the reasons why events happened. It had very little to do with female empowerment and more to do with a reaction against the inactivity the SS were sick of. 

Either way, agree with Jon Con, great post, there seems to be an undercurrent in a lot of articles of trying to examine everything through the lens of 'is this feminist' or 'is this sexist', its either one or the other in many cases. I don't know anything about that site, but it seems to be based on 'female empowerment' , and that article is clearly a clever way of getting a bunch of site hits by latching onto whatever is popular that day. 

Its just a sad fact that the internet at the moment is mostly writers competing for who can be more extreme in order to gain notoriety, and sensible views are dismissed because they are less interesting.

[Meera of Tarth]

This article is an insult to:

show watchers and readers

the media in general

murder fiction

[SeanF]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 6:29 AM, Daeron Velar said:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/156653-ellaria-takes-over-dorne-on-game-of-thrones-its-an-empowering-move

From the article cited above:

 

Can I just say that this person does not know what they are talking about? Proving her leadership? Amazing twist? Doran may have allowed women to be raped constantly in Dorne? I do not think murdering innocent children or even murdering a man that was trying to prevent full blown war is empowering what so ever in fact that might as well be the opposite! Let us not talk about the whole issue regarding Tyrstanes murder!

That's an extraordinary article.  Murdering children somehow empowers women!

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

This article is an insult to:

show watchers and readers

the media in general

murder fiction

And all humanity, LOL.

The idea that killing your own family for revenge because they refused to take revenge that would cost the lives of innocents would be any kind of positive, empowering moment for anyone of any gender, ethnicity or whatever is disgusting.

I don't think that Dan and Dave are trying to make a meta commentary on revenge though, revenge has been portrayed as highly satisfactory in the show.  Brienne got revenge on Stannis and this was a badass moment.  Arya got revenge on Trant and he deserved it.  

The show is definitely going to kill off the sand snakes, hopefully as soon as possible, but that will simply be another set piece of action, not a commentary on the ultimate futility of revenge, that is giving them credit for seeing the show in a way they don't.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

yeah its not a commentary on anything, nor was it really about revenge.. it was about getting Doran out of the way. Both for the Sandsnakes and for the show.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

This article is an insult to:

show watchers and readers

the media in general

murder fiction

and women because apparently we are not happy until we satisfy our hysteria.

and men because all men are out to suppress women and they deserve our wrath.

And to think someone was paid to write and promote this crap.

[TheCasualObserver]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

and women because apparently we are not happy until we satisfy our hysteria.

and men because all men are out to suppress women and they deserve our wrath.

And to think someone was paid to write and promote this crap.

That's the attitude I expected, not approval of her action. Shouldn't the hardcore feminists be annoyed that a violent and hysterical woman murdered the sensible and reasonable man?

[Mister Stoneheart]

I like the comments so far about D&D and feminism, and empowering women by wiping out the men in Dorne, but honestly, I really think that the main reason why these killings happened in D&D's version was to wrap up the failing Dorne Storyline as quickly as possible.  A clean up on aisle 7.

With Ellaria ruling Dorne, and the Sand Snakes as her personal assassins, Dorne can officially be wrapped up.  I expect we will see maybe 1 or 2 more scenes with them.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

and women because apparently we are not happy until we satisfy our hysteria.

and men because all men are out to suppress women and they deserve our wrath.

And to think someone was paid to write and promote this crap.

I forgot to use "........"

The article; apart from saying that killing is somthing that empowers women tries to justify itself by saying a great number of lies.

Ellaria was oppressed by Doran; really?

There were rapes in Dorne; really?

are we talkimg about the same show?

I can't understant the motivations of this article. the athor hasn't watched ever game of thrones or if she has she doesn't comprehend it.

I can't believe the latter being the reason so if anyone sees the reason please tell me.

[WightsOfPassage]

12 hours ago, Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies said:

Lol...Dany has been a terrible leader so far. She also burned people alive with no proof. Without her more experienced advisors, she'd be dead. Like 3% of what she's done can be classified as awesome. 2% of that was burning Kraznys, which had nothing to do with her leading. 

All the same she's willing to learn and what she's done as awesome stands out at the right time.  She's heavily flawed, but I far prefer her to Ellaria and the Sand Snakes.  While they may be more relatable and complex in the books, as far as the show is concerned I hope that all four of them die ASAP.

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

11 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I forgot to use "........"

The article; apart from saying that killing is somthing that empowers women tries to justify itself by saying a great number of lies.

Ellaria was oppressed by Doran; really?

There were rapes in Dorne; really?

are we talkimg about the same show?

I can't understant the motivations of this article. the athor hasn't watched ever game of thrones or if she has she doesn't comprehend it.

I can't believe the latter being the reason so if anyone sees the reason please tell me.

?

I think the author is trying to argue that Doran's failure to avenge Elia means that he lets women be raped with impunity.

As opposed to the fact that waging war against the rest of Westeros to avenge her would have been completely suicidal.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

Feminism ruins everything - even Game of Thrones.

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think the author is trying to argue that Doran's failure to avenge Elia means that he lets women be raped with impunity.

As opposed to the fact that waging war against the rest of Westeros to avenge her would have been completely suicidal.

But Doran and Ellaria tried to avenge Elia: Oberyn tried to, and in a way, he achieved his goal: the murderer was killed. 

What I understand is that if Ellaria wants a war and she can't get it, the best way of solving this problem is killing your family, your rightful ruler, and your nephew, because he was the heir, and that thing is "empowering" because the murderer is a woman. Many different ideas in a single sentence.

We'll see how much time they will be empowered if GOT tries to put some logic in the consequences. The new rulers are the assassins of the prince.....makes sense? Will Dorne be happy?

Why is it empowering? Will they be happy rulers?

[OldGimletEye]

Does anybody remember the movie Seven Days in May?

Now let's imagine, in place of General Scott, we have Ellaria.

Add to the plot, Ellaria murders the president and his family.

Ellaria then proceeds to launch a war.

Hey, Ellaria is a feminist icon!

That's pretty much the argument made by the author in the article.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This whole "Elaria kills Doran because he won't avenge Elia and hence, not doing anything about her rape" it's like this very recent campus story about this couple who had sex, very consensual, yet, the guy got expelled because he didn't stop another guy from spanking the girl when she agreed on group sex.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

Dorne was such a disater from the start in the shows.  It's bad writing, it's not empowering women.

Ellaria's motivations are totally screwed up. 

Doran you let Elia's rapers/killers go free.  But the mountain and Tywin are dead at Oberyn's hand.  Moreover, as far as I know no one is committing rapes with impunity in Dorne, Elia was raped and murdered in KL.

We have to avenge Oberyn, but he was killed in single combat that he signed up for.

What I know about Dorne is that they do not hurt little girls in Dorne, the SS's father was pretty adamant about that.  The SS apparently feel different.  Oh and they are kinslayers as well.  This is not empowering to women.

Is GoT sexist, yea they live in a sexist society, as book and novella readers will know intimately from matters of succession, specically during the great councils called before the Dance of Dragons.

But there are positive female characters: Catlyn, Sansa, Dany, Brienne, Arya, Gilly, Ygritte... (all to varying extents)

From where I stand there is no way to put a positive spin on the Dorne plot, whether femist or literary or whatever.

 

 

 

 

[Miley the Monstrous]

This article was so bad it made me dust off my account here (well that and the show). 

Drivel like this is what gives feminism a bad name. The writer of this "article" and DnD wouldn't recognize real feminism if it branded "bell hooks" on their ass with hot coals. Martin has a better grasp of it, even tho Arianne and the Sand Snakes are not the ultimate feminist heroines, as some fans praised them. 

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, let's keep this discussion show-relevant, please. [/mod]

[Tijgy]

Personally, I think the whole scene was disgusting and created out a mix of three things: they wanted to say byebye to Dorne, REVENGE and need for strong women vs. weak men. 

I can completely not see Ellaria and SS as something else than villains. They killed Myrcella who might have been a little brat to her uncle/father but was actually very understanding to him and who is called a very sweet and gentle child. They killed Doran, an apparently great ruler who tried to keep his people safe, who did not want his guest been killed and whose last words were for his son. They killed Areo who only wanted to protect his lord. They killed Trystane who was mourning his girlfriend by painting those eggs and refusing diner and who first declined to fight because they were family. And they killed the maester

 A little recent reminder. And they all died.

They cannot want from us we think Ellaria and the SS are nothing else than villains. Not if they killed those five people and not if you also remember they just killed the family of guy who they wanted to avenge and who died in the name of her family. 

And then they are justifying their actions because of REVENGE. And they are doing this in the adaptation of the book in which some characters spoke against revenge, like Ellaria, the Ned. We are actually IMO not supposed to feel happy about the actions of Lady Stoneheart but actually sad Cat became such person as consequence of all her sufferings. 

D&D actually they take a whole different path. REVENGE is awesome and very present in the whole series. Edd wants to take revenge, Sansa is going to want revenge, Cersei and Larry want revenge, Ellaria and the Sandsnakes want revenge ... almost everybody want revenge  And revenge is something you actually are obliged to want. In season 5 LF actually tried Sansa to feel guilty about the fact she was standing at the sidelines when her whole family was killed (so she would marry Ramsay) - (oh look victim blaming - always fun). And now Doran and Trystane are being murdered. Why? Because Doran is a weak man because he wants peace (in the show at least ) to protect his people and because he doesn't chose vengeance. At the same time Ellaria and the Sandsnakes are empowered because they take their revenge and because they are taking the power from those weak men. Yeah, I really want those women been seen as examples of strong women /sarcasm

The whole storyline is insulting IMO. And it is even made more insulting for me some certain media are thinking Ellaria and Sandsnakes are not villains here. Myrcella, Areo, Doran, the maester and Trystane are here their victims who died for no good reason. IMO it is actually immoral to claim something else.