Who got shafted worse? Doran Martell or Stannis Baratheon

[II_CHIEF]

Stannis got done over 5 seasons, Doran got done over 5 episodes (if even that)

So probably Doran, was looking forward to the master plan, even they did modify the plot somewhat.

Was not expecting the madness that ensued from last nights episode.

[SevasTra82]

I still find it odd they that killed Stannis off-screen.  They could have at least shown his head getting lopped off or something.

Makes me wonder....

[thegreenmanalishi83]

For me it's Stannis........I think Doran really is just a waste of space and everybody wondering whether he has a master plan were just wrong unfortunately. His awful Quentyn plan was a clue.

[Protagoras]

Doran gets the worse deal in the show, but you can genuinely ask yourself how "great" his plans in the books are in the first place. Somehow I feel Stannis deserves more respect due to what he actually accomplishes (and to make Stannis lose a mere episode later after sacrificing Shireen is an insult) while Doran is seen as this strategic mastermind when in reality his plans suck through and through, are not thought out and overly optimistic. It certainly shows Arianne is his daughter.

I am simply willing to accept what happened to Doran easier.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

I don't think Doran was shafted at all. Everything Ellaria, who I hate so that is some pretty good acting, said about him not avenging Oberyn or Elia is true and he was a coward and a burden that needed disposing of. Even in the books he is a such a passive and ineffectual character with his very late and very poor Quentyn plan, that in this ruthless world demanded of his overthrow.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

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[Desert Fox]

Stannis was one the best characters on GoT. His tragic downfall was a little rushed, but so are all plots on GoT. Stannis is going to torch Shareen in the books too.

[LordPathera]

 

3 minutes ago, Valhalla Morghulis said:

I don't think Doran was shafted at all. Everything Ellaria, who I hate so that is some pretty good acting, said about him not avenging Oberyn or Elia is true and he was a coward and a burden that needed disposing of. Even in the books he is a such a passive and ineffectual character with his very late and very poor Quentyn plan, that in this ruthless world demanded of his overthrow.

In the books, Doran only seems passive and ineffectual because that's his intention. He was the Grass which hid the Viper (Oberyn) and the two of them have been plotting and working towards Revenge and Targaryen restoration for years. He kept his people out of the War to preserve Dorne's strength for a better opportunity to strike, an opportunity that he's acting on as of Dance via the Sand Snakes and the coming of (f)Aegon.

The Targaryen marriage alliance didn't work as planned, but how is Doran supposed to know that Viserys was a suicidal idiot and that Daenerys preferred fire over mud (Barristan notes that Daenerys would have accepted Quentyn's proposal if he had been hotter)? But a marriage between (f)Aegon and Arianne could make up for lost time.

The fact that Doran is portrayed as a flanderized and powerless caricature of himself is worst shafting than what happened to Stannis' character.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

10 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 

In the books, Doran only seems passive and ineffectual because that's his intention. He was the Grass which hid the Viper (Oberyn) and the two of them have been plotting and working towards Revenge and Targaryen restoration for years. He kept his people out of the War to preserve Dorne's strength for a better opportunity to strike, an opportunity that he's acting on as of Dance via the Sand Snakes and the coming of (f)Aegon.

The Targaryen marriage alliance didn't work as planned, but how is Doran supposed to know that Viserys was a suicidal idiot and that Daenerys preferred fire over mud (Barristan notes that Daenerys would have accepted Quentyn's proposal if he had been hotter)? But a marriage between (f)Aegon and Arianne could make up for lost time.

The fact that Doran is portrayed as a flanderized and powerless caricature of himself is worst shafting than what happened to Stannis' character.

Too many excuses, the man proved himself a procrastinator and a delayer with failed, pie in the sky plans as his cover, and was killed off as he should have been and will be in the books.

And the show portrayed him well as thoughtful and considered but ultimately his failures and timidity led to his death.

[thegreenmanalishi83]

Is a lot of the hate for the Dornish storyline in episode one because people can't believe Doran turned out to be a bit rubbish? I know when I read the books I assume he knows what he's doing.

 

I mean of course it will be done much better in the novel but he will probably achieve very little there too.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

10 minutes ago, Valhalla Morghulis said:

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[RoamingRonin]

Doran. At least Stannis got to be awesome a few times - at the Wall, Blackwater - but Doran didn't get to do anything.

[Punting on the Honeywine]

Who exactly would Doran put on the Iron Throne?  He would hate the Baratheon's almost as much as the Lannisters - they all usurped the Targaryens.  I think it makes sense for him to do nothing and plan for a Targaryen restoration - we don't know if he is in league with Varys and Ilyrio (do we?)   Also he is right (and quite modern) when he states that preserving Dornish lives is important.  

[Gannicus]

The real question is who got shafted more, Stannis or the Sand Snakes. 

I think what D&D did to Stannis was one of the worst decisions in tv history. Then I saw what they did to the Snakes.

Killing your daughter to win a battle or killing your uncle to start a war. They have turned them into a bad cartoon. Evil girls with, with atrocious dialogue, terrible acting, and motivation that is not even close to relatable. I mean seriously, they hate the Lannisters for what the did to their aunt and then father.  So what better way to avenge them than kinslaying. Are you F ing kidding me!?!

Doran was the only interesting part of Dorne. "Why don't we get rid of him?" "Great idea, the sheep love shock value." Yeah they didn't make him as conniving, but he was believable and his motivations clear.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

5 minutes ago, Gannicus said:

The real question is who got shafted more, Stannis or the Sand Snakes. 

I think what D&D did to Stannis was one of the worst decisions in tv history. Then I saw what they did to the Snakes.

Killing your daughter to win a battle or killing your uncle to start a war. They have turned them into a bad cartoon. Evil girls with, with atrocious dialogue, terrible acting, and motivation that is not even close to relatable. I mean seriously, they hate the Lannisters for what the did to their aunt and then father.  So what better way to avenge them than kinslaying. Are you F ing kidding me!?!

Doran was the only interesting part of Dorne. "Why don't we get rid of him?" "Great idea, the sheep love shock value." Yeah they didn't make him as conniving, but he was believable and his motivations clear.

Yes the sand snakes have been portrayed very thinly in the show altho they are not all that developed in the books either. I think DD have taken the view that it is good to show kick ass exotic women fighters as there has been mainly a sausage fest so far, but there is not that much more to them.

As for them killing Doran and his potential avenger Trystan, they see them as betrayers and traitors and those people are always more hated than any enemy. They are the enemy within.

[LordPathera]

11 minutes ago, Valhalla Morghulis said:

Too many excuses, the man proved himself a procrastinator and a delayer with failed, pie in the sky plans as his cover, and was killed off as he should have been and will be in the books.

Not excuses, facts. Viserys was an idiot and Doran had no way of knowing or accounting for this before Viserys committed suicide via Khal Drogo and Daenerys placed appearance over political and military gain and Doran can't control that. Even the best schemers can't control every chaotic or unforeseen factor that's waiting to undo carefully laid plans.

Think back to Tywin's plan to capture Ned and how that was foiled with Jamie's unexpected actions. So is pointing this out making excuses? No, that's just the truth of what happened.

As is, Doran's still in the best of positions despite setbacks. Dorne's strength is completely intact because of his wise decision to keep his people out of the Wot5K. Depending on how well he does, (f)Aegon could marry Arianne and become the Targaryen that Dorne openly works to restore now that the Lannisters are weakened and antagonizing their Tyrell allies. He's also utilizing the Sand Snakes and manuevering them into good positioning for further erosion of the Lannister's position. We'll see how he does in Winds of Winter, but thus far it seems like he's picked the best time to strike unless you'd like to point out what he should've done with 20/20 hindsight.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Doran by default as he literally got a shaft put in him.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Also decapitation is instant death.

Doran had to lie there  and listen to more terrible Sand Snake dialogue as he bled out.  And that was the last thing he heard.

Poor guy.

[Punting on the Honeywine]

10 minutes ago, Gannicus said:

The real question is who got shafted more, Stannis or the Sand Snakes. 

I think what D&D did to Stannis was one of the worst decisions in tv history. Then I saw what they did to the Snakes.

Killing your daughter to win a battle or killing your uncle to start a war. They have turned them into a bad cartoon. Evil girls with, with atrocious dialogue, terrible acting, and motivation that is not even close to relatable. I mean seriously, they hate the Lannisters for what the did to their aunt and then father.  So what better way to avenge them than kinslaying. Are you F ing kidding me!?!

Doran was the only interesting part of Dorne. "Why don't we get rid of him?" "Great idea, the sheep love shock value." Yeah they didn't make him as conniving, but he was believable and his motivations clear.

I think Stannis' decision to burn his daughter is more complex than the Sand Snakes decision to murder uncle and cousin.  It's more epic - it's a genuine moral issue (he thinks he is the chosen one).  The show goes out of its way for more than one season to show how much he loves his daughter.  What I dislike about Stannis' tv treatment is not that he burns his daughter, it's the way they quickly got rid of him after - he deserved more screen time for us to see the effect his daughter's death.  Also the whole battle with Ramsay was a bit off.    

So I think Doran is shafted more.  

[Rockroi]

Reminds me of the Family Guy cut-away when they show Jake and Maggie Gyllenhal arguing over who is worse.  And their father comes in and says "Kids, kids; you're both ... just terrible."  

In both cases, the show-runners failed abysmally when left with two complicated characters and had no book-source material to guide them.  And their answer in both cases was "Just kill them."  Because the show runners are ... just terrible...