6x01: D & D cleaning up after themselves

[Zara Zokan]

21 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Well, I think most of Manderly, Frey, Dustin, etc. stuff is going to happen this year inside WF. But that's other stuff that's happening around the Sansa to Jeyne arc, I should have clarified that I meant they kept the "Stark" girls part pretty similar inside WF.

They had Ramsey marry a "Stark" from the direction of Roose to create a better grip on the North and to legitimize himself and thus any future off-spring. They are married inside winterfell, the "Stark" is badly mistreated, raped, locked away, and starts to feel increasingly more helpless. Reek then remembering his name helps to save the "Stark" by jumping of the battlements in a last ditch effort not knowing if they'd truely survive.

The Sansa to Jeyne arc was fairly similar from the books to screen. 

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/120615659516/lets-revisit-why-sansas-being-raped-and

Quote

Here’s the very bare bones of the Winterfell plotline in ADWD:

• The North is still quite upset with the Boltons. Lords are clearly unhappy about swearing their allegiance and Roose is concerned given that Stannis is trying to gain support in the North for himself.
• To sure up their allies, Roose has Ramsay marry a girl they pretend is Arya Stark, despite everyone knowing it’s not her. This is able to happen because it is of no cost to Littlefinger and Roose alike. Many Northern Lords and Freys come and stay at Winterfell during this event. It’s tense as all hell.
• Theon gives away the bride to increase the legitimacy of the sham wedding
• Ramsay rapes his wife
• Theon is raped in the same scene
• Theon converses with several key players in the North, including Lady Dustin, who contextualizes much of the tensions in the region, as well as provides key insight to the Starks.
• Men begin getting mysteriously murdered at Winterfell. The Lords are snowbound inside. Tensions bubble over because there are three missing Freys that people suspect were murdered by the Northern Lord Wyman Manderly.
• Tensions finally erupt into a brawl
• Theon flees to the Godswood where he thinks the tree whispers his name. That, along with Ramsay’s sexual abuse of both Theon and “Arya,” the way no Nothern Lords give a shit abut her obvious suffering, and the tensions breaking out cause Theon to have flashes of clarity

I’ll leave it off there, because it seems to be around where we are in 5x08. Here’s what Benioff and Weiss decided to keep in from that list:

• A random old lady is The North is still quite upset with the Boltons.Lords are clearly One Lord is mentioned as being unhappy about swearing their allegiance and Roose is concerned given that Stannis is trying to gain support in the North for himself.
• Theon gives away the bride to increase the legitimacy of the sham wedding
• Ramsay rapes his wife

 

[The Dames do Moan]

1 hour ago, Zara Zokan said:

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/120615659516/lets-revisit-why-sansas-being-raped-and

 

You have your opinion and I have mine. I feel like most of the points you mentioned in "the plot line for aDwD" were actually kept in tact except for the ones that couldn't be because the Stark wasn't fake, keeping in mind that I believe the Northern houses in and around WF is coming into play this season IMO. Which I think was fine to split it up.

That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea to give Sansa Jeyne's storyline. We'll see how it play out, but I've liked it better than the Vale, Harry the heir, etc. stuff so far, but most of the book Vale stuff seems to be setting up for future events. But we're probably not gonna agree, and that's ok too.

[sandpiper]

I guess the point of this forum is to speculate what could be happening, but since the series is getting ahead of the books we don't really know whether the plots are diverging or keeping perfect step. I think the book plots were altered around to better suit the needs of the series, to keep some characters on screen, and to cut stuff which there was not time for. Until we see series six out so we are pretty sure every plot line is ahead of the books, we can't tell what has definitely been left out rather than just moved around.

The sandsnakes rebellion could still perfectly well happen in the books. Then what we have in the series is just a simplification and getting quicker to the point. There must be a point amongst the surviving characters. It strikes me that the deaths of the lead members of the house of Dorn perfectly mirrors what has happened to every other house which gets mixed up in this war. The entire theme of the book might be 'everyone important dies'. And.. the little guys win. Not  meaning to be heightist, but Tyrion is definitely one of the little guys in that he starts in a weak and sidelined position and shows every sign of rising to the top at story's end. Similarly Sansa. Also John Snow, currently dead notwithstanding. That seems to be shaping up in line with the cracks he has been making about only playing a body all season. Yep, a body that just keeps on being in scene after scene until it stops being a body again.

In the north they made a decision to simplify the Sansa plot by eliminating the double. Again, we will not know exactly how it has changed until we have the two versions played out. My guess is at the end of season 6 the series will be squarely into the next book, so Martin can publish and leapfrog revealing some information which will be in series 7, but then in turn series 7 will go into the following book. That way they each get to keep interest from fans about new material being revealed. Did martin really miss his deadline last year, or was it always planned that way?

So are they cleaning up a mess they made? not really.

[hallam]

50 minutes ago, sandpiper said:

I guess the point of this forum is to speculate what could be happening, but since the series is getting ahead of the books we don't really know whether the plots are diverging or keeping perfect step. I think the book plots were altered around to better suit the needs of the series, to keep some characters on screen, and to cut stuff which there was not time for. Until we see series six out so we are pretty sure every plot line is ahead of the books, we can't tell what has definitely been left out rather than just moved around.

...

In the north they made a decision to simplify the Sansa plot by eliminating the double. Again, we will not know exactly how it has changed until we have the two versions played out. My guess is at the end of season 6 the series will be squarely into the next book, so Martin can publish and leapfrog revealing some information which will be in series 7, but then in turn series 7 will go into the following book. That way they each get to keep interest from fans about new material being revealed. Did martin really miss his deadline last year, or was it always planned that way?

So are they cleaning up a mess they made? not really.

I think the point of this forum is for people who haven't even made a TV show to tell D&D how they are doing everything wrong while they are making the most popular series on television today.

They clearly made the same decision GRRM made that the plot is too complex in books 4&5 and needs to be slimmed down. Instead of making them into two separate books covering different geographies in the same time period, they have slid the plots past each other so that the Ironborn, oldtown and northern uprising plots happen later while the Stannis plot was brought to a conclusion and finished.

I don't think they have changed their plans at all. The Dorne seqences were probably shot at the same time as the Season 5 block. Or do you think they would bring Siddig back for one death scene? So the Doran death scene was probably shot before he ever appeared on screen.

Far from 'clearing up', I think it obvious that the TV series went to Dorne because they wanted some visual variety in Season 5 and to tie up the the Myrcella plot. If they stay in Dorne this season it is because they are doing the Riverlands plot in Dorne instead. It might well be like the Eyre though which was a one shot deal, the set was struck and so we are obviously not going back.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

On 4/25/2016 at 10:40 AM, Punting on the Honeywine said:

Have D&D even responded to all the Dorne criticism?

Is there criticism of the show's portrayal of Dorne outside these boards, Tumblr accounts and the like? That is: outside the tv & film community of professionals and reviewers?

[bent branch]

3 minutes ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

Is there criticism of the show's portrayal of Dorne outside these boards, Tumblr accounts and the like? That is: outside the tv & film community of professionals and reviewers?

I'm not sure who you are referring to. It seems you have eliminated anyone who watched the show for pleasure and anyone who watched the show as a professional critic. Are you asking if anyone who hasn't seen the show complained about it yet?

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

3 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I'm not sure who you are referring to. It seems you have eliminated anyone who watched the show for pleasure and anyone who watched the show as a professional critic. Are you asking if anyone who hasn't seen the show complained about it yet?

I was referring to the professional critics, i.e., excluding those posting on these boards and those who provide criticism as a "hobby" on their own time and post on Tumblr and the like).

Have the critics specifically viewed the Dorne plotline as problematic? The OP is suggesting that D&D are cleaning up after themselves after getting criticism of various plot lines. But has Dorne specifically even been criticized?

I doubt D&D would take anonymous comments & posts very seriously. But they might take, say, a negative review that is highly critical of Dorne in Variety quite seriously.

Yet if no reviewers have mentioned Dorne, I think it's safe to say they aren't trying to "clean up" after themselves.

[bent branch]

3 minutes ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

I was referring to the professional critics, i.e., excluding those posting on these boards and those who provide criticism as a "hobby" on their own time and post on Tumblr and the like).

Have the critics specifically viewed the Dorne plotline as problematic? The OP is suggesting that D&D are cleaning up after themselves after getting criticism of various plot lines. But has Dorne specifically even been criticized?

I doubt D&D would take anonymous comments & posts very seriously. But they might take, say, a negative review that is highly critical of Dorne in Variety quite seriously.

Yet if no reviewers have mentioned Dorne, I think it's safe to say they aren't trying to "clean up" after themselves.

Ah, I have seen some reviews that seem to think Dorne was problematical and others who appear to have no problems with it.

[hallam]

25 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Ah, I have seen some reviews that seem to think Dorne was problematical and others who appear to have no problems with it.

The reviewers would probably find it even more problematic if there was a Dorne attack on KL without ever going there. And Myrcella had to be iced.

The Sand Snakes behave just like the men do in the Sopranos. That is surely the point.

[Woman of War]

7 hours ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

Is there criticism of the show's portrayal of Dorne outside these boards, Tumblr accounts and the like? That is: outside the tv & film community of professionals and reviewers?

I have followed many reviews and other forums yesterday since I was sick and had to stay at home.

The majority of professional reviews - there is a list on http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-6-premiere-red-woman-recap-round/ , but I also followed some reviews in German  and French blogs and forums -  are quite enthusiastic about the new series and its start. But indeed Dorne is the exception. Those who go deeper into analysis at best don't know what to make of it and give the series the benefit of the doubt. Others see it as "clearing up", as correcting some wrong decisions. In general literature and movie features outside this small nerdy world with an audience above 20 years old are far more positive towards season six and GOT in general than especially this forum here. There is sensible  and justified criticism all over media but no vitriol. 

And while European female voices are divided about Sansa's wedding, no one, virtually no one has the lunatic idea that the show "hates Sansa". Many women see her wedding as depicting reality for so many young women in our world, something we should talk about. And virtually everyone loves Sansa's, Theon's, Pod's and Brienne's scenes in last episode.

 

[matsuki]

I think this mutiny in Dorne is simply a replacement for Aegon/Griff...that bitch definitely will start a war with the Lannisters. Sad, because even if Aegon/Griff are to eventually fail, it seems way more interesting than what we're getting....and would provide the filler need for a complete 8 seasons. If LSH isn't in this season, I think even George will start calling it sanctioned fan fiction.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

11 hours ago, Woman of War said:

I have followed many reviews and other forums yesterday since I was sick and had to stay at home.

The majority of professional reviews - there is a list on http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-6-premiere-red-woman-recap-round/ , but I also followed some reviews in German  and French blogs and forums -  are quite enthusiastic about the new series and its start. But indeed Dorne is the exception. Those who go deeper into analysis at best don't know what to make of it and give the series the benefit of the doubt. Others see it as "clearing up", as correcting some wrong decisions. In general literature and movie features outside this small nerdy world with an audience above 20 years old are far more positive towards season six and GOT in general than especially this forum here. There is sensible  and justified criticism all over media but no vitriol. 

And while European female voices are divided about Sansa's wedding, no one, virtually no one has the lunatic idea that the show "hates Sansa". Many women see her wedding as depicting reality for so many young women in our world, something we should talk about. And virtually everyone loves Sansa's, Theon's, Pod's and Brienne's scenes in last episode.

 

Well stated, and thank you for the info.

And I I agree with you about Sansa. I think she's one of the characters that I think the show has done miles better with than did GRRM, who except for a couple of brief chapters in a AFfC, hasn't even written about Sansa in 16 years.

[Miley the Monstrous]

1 hour ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said:

Well stated, and thank you for the info.

And I I agree with you about Sansa. I think she's one of the characters that I think the show has done miles better with than did GRRM, who except for a couple of brief chapters in a AFfC, hasn't even written about Sansa in 16 years.

I agree, sort of? I wasn't a fan of her show arc last season, at all, but I think a substantial part of the blame lies with GRRM simply for not writing enough material for her. It would be nuts to try to stretch the two (or three?) chapters she has in aFfC across two or more seasons, it would be insane. 

Now I'm not saying what DnD came up with was great (because it wasn't) but it's obvious they had to come up with something. 

[Mladen]

15 hours ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

I agree, sort of? I wasn't a fan of her show arc last season, at all, but I think a substantial part of the blame lies with GRRM simply for not writing enough material for her. It would be nuts to try to stretch the two (or three?) chapters she has in aFfC across two or more seasons, it would be insane. 

Now I'm not saying what DnD came up with was great (because it wasn't) but it's obvious they had to come up with something. 

Yeah, that is the point. They had to come up with something and they chose the worst possible scenario. Let we not blame GRRM for the lack of quality writing and imagination in TV show. The fact is that they tried writing on their own in season 5 and we know how that ended - with lines such as "bad pu**y" and schizophrenic Sansa. 

We should not equalize every critique as vitriol and hate speech as those fancy entertainment industry journalist like to manifest it. Game of thrones is not above criticism. Nothing is. If people can criticize Breaking Bad, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings etc. what makes GoT sacred cow that it became so unacceptable to even point out the bad things about it.

[Miley the Monstrous]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yeah, that is the point. They had to come up with something and they chose the worst possible scenario. Let we not blame GRRM for the lack of quality writing and imagination in TV show. The fact is that they tried writing on their own in season 5 and we know how that ended - with lines such as "bad pu**y" and schizophrenic Sansa. 

We should not equalize every critique as vitriol and hate speech as those fancy entertainment industry journalist like to manifest it. Game of thrones is not above criticism. Nothing is. If people can criticize Breaking Bad, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings etc. what makes GoT sacred cow that it became so unacceptable to even point out the bad things about it.

When did I say GoT is above criticism? For what it's worth I agree with you. Sansa getting raped is possibly the worst scenario they could have come up with and of course most of the blame lies with DnD. But...if george had bothered to actually write material for sansa instead of leaving her adrift then maybe, maybe DnD would have been compelled to follow her book storyline. Or maybe they would've still gone the fan fic route, who knows. But my point was that there is a dearth of sansa material in the books and that's on george. 

[Mladen]

15 minutes ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

When did I say GoT is above criticism? For what it's worth I agree with you. Sansa getting raped is possibly the worst scenario they could have come up with and of course most of the blame lies with DnD. But...if george had bothered to actually write material for sansa instead of leaving her adrift then maybe, maybe DnD would have been compelled to follow her book storyline. Or maybe they would've still gone the fan fic route, who knows. But my point was that there is a dearth of sansa material in the books and that's on george. 

George has written material for Sansa. And beside, that is not even proper argument. Jaime had a lot of chapters in Feast and look what they have made of him. So, not having material is not an excuse. 

TWOW spoilers

Spoiler

Plus just days before Season 5 premiere, George published TWOW Alayne chapter.

 

[HairGrowsBack]

To the OP : I don't see how what we got so far is D&D cleaning up after themselves. If anything, it's doubling down and put even more emphasis on the worst part of the Dorne arc.

D&D don't listen to criticism and don't take it into consideration ; as they stated themselves, they "didn't change a line" .

[Clash]

58 minutes ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

When did I say GoT is above criticism? For what it's worth I agree with you. Sansa getting raped is possibly the worst scenario they could have come up with and of course most of the blame lies with DnD. But...if george had bothered to actually write material for sansa instead of leaving her adrift then maybe, maybe DnD would have been compelled to follow her book storyline. Or maybe they would've still gone the fan fic route, who knows. But my point was that there is a dearth of sansa material in the books and that's on george. 

I'm not sure we can criticise George for not writing enough about Sansa when he isn't finished writing yet, AFfC and DwD are written in the same time period even though we've read them years apart. By combining Sansa with Jeyne, D&D have jumped her story farther forward from the books, so we just might be seeing how she progresses in TWoW.

The shortcuts that D&D have made should arrive at the same point as GRRM intends in the books. So a war with the Lannisters will happen, except it's Dorne in the show and Arianne/Griff in the books. The endpoint is a weakening of both and possibly a political vacuum at the Iron Throne.

[Xcorpyo001]

It’s not cleaning it up, it’s making it worse. They are planning to replace Faegon with Ellaria and SS. But in order to accomplish that, they ask us to forget what this series is all about, and to believe that the SS could somehow take control of all of Dorne, because ‘the people hate Doran.’

This show is called Game of Thrones. The political intrigue and strict inheritance rules are the backbone of the story. But we are led to believe that a couple of bastards and a lover of a former prince could inherit an entire country just because they killed the last Prince?

 

Let us take this situation and move it to the North. Ramsay dies unexpectedly, so Myranda kills Roose and Fat Walda, then names herself Wardeness/Queen of the North because Ramsay used to have sex with her. I’m sure no one will have any issue with this.

 

The situation in Dorne makes no sense.  

[Clash]

1 hour ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

It’s not cleaning it up, it’s making it worse. They are planning to replace Faegon with Ellaria and SS. But in order to accomplish that, they ask us to forget what this series is all about, and to believe that the SS could somehow take control of all of Dorne, because ‘the people hate Doran.’

This show is called Game of Thrones. The political intrigue and strict inheritance rules are the backbone of the story. But we are led to believe that a couple of bastards and a lover of a former prince could inherit an entire country just because they killed the last Prince?

Let us take this situation and move it to the North. Ramsay dies unexpectedly, so Myranda kills Roose and Fat Walda, then names herself Wardeness/Queen of the North because Ramsay used to have sex with her. I’m sure no one will have any issue with this.

The situation in Dorne makes no sense.  

I notice you just take a random commoner and present that as the same thing. But conveniently leaving out the fact that if Ramsay killed Roose and called himself Lord Bolton nobody would have a problem.

And that other bastard born sons have laid claim to kingdoms in the past.