aryagonnakill#2

Melissandre spoilers included

112 posts in this topic

The spoiler is not from the show, but an interview with the director in which he tells us about a convo with GRRM where GRRM revealed an interesting fact.

 

This post containts spoilers, do not read on if you do not want to know something David Benioff, 1 of the directors of the show recently said about a convo with GRRM.

 

So, keeping the elephant in the room out of the convo, David Benioff recently revealed on camera that as per a conversation with GRRM, Melissandre is "several centuries old".

So, there are still several possibilities, she could be alive and old, or as many have thought she could be like Beric was.  I actually think it lends more credence to her being like Beric.

The real big thing here is that the fan favorite theory that she is BR and Shiera Seastars daughter cannot be the case.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2

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my gut instinct as soon as she de-glamoured was to say Rhaenys Targaryen, do not know why.

then i said to myself, that would put her at over 300 years old...no way

maybe I am not that crazy after-all...

 

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17 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

my gut instinct as soon as she de-glamoured was to say Rhaenys Targaryen, do not know why.

then i said to myself, that would put her at over 300 years old...no way

maybe I am not that crazy after-all...

 

Well, in her pov chapter in Dance she remembers being auctioned off as a slave and is called Melony, so that is likely her real name.  

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I suspect it's the former, but that the magic isn't particularly different either way as they're all functionally immortal and don't have the same needs as other humans. Melisandre differs in that she doesn't seem to suffer from the same 'emptiness' as Beric and Stoneheart, but I'd explain that with her never having died. She was a live human who tapped into fire immortality, they were corpses given it.

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Did the "several centuries" come straight from GRRM or second-hand from the actress who plays her?  It could be she was told that she was "very old, well over a hundred years" and in an interview she either misunderstood or exaggerated for effect to say she was several centuries old.

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Here we have the 1st of what I suspect will be many quandaries over the next 10 weeks.   As book readers we know Mel is not what she appears to be either more or less than meets the eye.   She's told us this herself.   The show has to abbreviate situations but show Mel already told viewers about glamor.   She's a magician to be sure.   Book readers have tons of ideas about Mel's disposition where the show has to forego nuance to move their ideas along.   Several centuries?   Who was significant several centuries ago?  Only 3 who come to mind are the Woman with the Monkey Tail, the Amethyst Princess and the Stark daughter from the Bael the Bard story.   I would say it's safe to conclude Mel isn't a Stark remnant.  There has been precious little ancient history mentioned in the show and a little more in the books outside AWOIAF.  So the other 2 historical figures are likely too far back for this creature to appear now.   Rhaenys would be several centuries old, but so would Visenya who actually studied sorcery and lived to a ripe old age which we can't conclusively say happened with Rhaenys.  Sheira Seastar herself would be of an age with BR, roughly 120 years old and their child would probably be about 100 years old.   It would be very tidy to have a reveal via episode 1 of season 6 but my gut tells me this isn't how it really is (meaning the book is canon and the show just tells its own story independent of the books).   We have to define "several centuries" before we can really come up with possibilities for this ancient creature who appears to be Mel.   I'm thinking the show makers are out to make a good show while maintaining a healthy respect for the books.    They would need permission to reveal some things and if GRRM gave permission to reveal before him I could see these guys doing it in a circuitous way like "several centuries" as opposed to 100 +/- years.  I'm wondering what significance to the story the show is telling this Mel twist has in store.  This may well be a case of having our cake and eating it, too.

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1 hour ago, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

Did the "several centuries" come straight from GRRM or second-hand from the actress who plays her?  It could be she was told that she was "very old, well over a hundred years" and in an interview she either misunderstood or exaggerated for effect to say she was several centuries old.

The actress that plays Melissandre said in 2012 that she was told Mel was 400 years old.  What I mention in the OP is a quote from David Beinoff who said that GRRM said Melissandre was "several centuries old".  So that is from GRRM's lips.

 

 

If people could please remember, were not talking about the show, only an interview conducted with David Beinoff in which he quotes GRRM.

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As one who has said she is like Beric, loudly and frequently, I'll say that viewing either of them as dead is over simplification. They are transformed by fire and living past their natural lifespan. The path they took to get there may not be that important. It's all R'hllor magic.They both have black smoking blood. Neither eat, neither sleep.

That was actually the creepiest thing about the scene for me. She lies down and goes to sleep. For Mel, that is like surrendering to the Great Other.

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Personally, I don't buy into the theories about Mel being Shiera or a daughter of Shiera, but if I did, I am not sure that the statements mentioned in this thread would cause me to rule it out. It is one thing to hear GRRM say something himself, but I am skeptical when David and DB are the only source for something they say GRRM told them. Not that I am denying that GRRM told then something, I'm just not sure how accurately they comprehend and pass along things they claim GRRM told them.

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7 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

As one who has said she is like Beric, loudly and frequently, I'll say that viewing either of them as dead is over simplification. They are transformed by fire and living past their natural lifespan. The path they took to get there may not be that important. It's all R'hllor magic.They both have black smoking blood. Neither eat, neither sleep.

That was actually the creepiest thing about the scene for me. She lies down and goes to sleep. For Mel, that is like surrendering to the Great Other.

The reason I talk about her being like Beric in a simplified way is that Beric was able to pass his life onto Catlyn, so if Mel is the same she should be able to do the same to Jon.  If she is different she may not be able to, and that is why I simplify it to is she the same or different.

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There is a quote in her POV where she says, that R'hllor gave her all the sustenance she needed, but that it was fact best kept from mortal men.  suggesting she is immortal.

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14 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The reason I talk about her being like Beric in a simplified way is that Beric was able to pass his life onto Catlyn, so if Mel is the same she should be able to do the same to Jon.  If she is different she may not be able to, and that is why I simplify it to is she the same or different.

I would buy that.

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36 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Personally, I don't buy into the theories about Mel being Shiera or a daughter of Shiera, but if I did, I am not sure that the statements mentioned in this thread would cause me to rule it out. It is one thing to hear GRRM say something himself, but I am skeptical when David and DB are the only source for something they say GRRM told them. Not that I am denying that GRRM told then something, I'm just not sure how accurately they comprehend and pass along things they claim GRRM told them.

I do love this forum and the way people seem to constantly question D&D's basic level of intelligence or dismiss them as liars.  They are quite successful at their craft.  They aren't dumb.  I'm pretty sure they have discussed in great length and detail many nuances of the story and back  story with GRRM.  As demonstrated with the Mercy chapter they definitely have access to unreleased material.

GRRM is not infallible.  D&D are not 100% fallible.  People need to stop trying to spin things to suit their hopes and views and face some facts.  D&D know more about the story and lore than almost everyone who posts on these forums.  They speak directly to the man himself.  If they are unsure about something I am sure they can just give GRRM a quick call and clarify.

 

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I've never thought Mel was Shiera Seastar, or any other named character from history. I see no profit from that hypothesis. Melisandre is better off as just Melisandre. Plus, her being Shiera Seastar makes her joining Team Stannis Baratheon, instead of supporting this or that dragon, at least a little weird.

But, if Mel is seriously that ancient, then maybe she remembers the Doom of Valyria? The times before the Doom? Now, here, I do see some potential for serious coolness.

On a side note, if Red Rahloo's power has preserved her for that long, then fire magic > COTF magic, and not by a narrow margin. Bloodraven is barely over one hundred, and near falling apart.

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I've never thought Mel was Shiera Seastar, or any other named character from history. I see no profit from that hypothesis. Melisandre is better off as just Melisandre. Plus, her being Shiera Seastar makes her joining Team Stannis Baratheon, instead of supporting this or that dragon, at least a little weird.

But, if Mel is seriously that ancient, then maybe she remembers the Doom of Valyria? The times before the Doom? Now, here, I do see some potential for serious coolness.

On a side note, if Red Rahloo's power has preserved her for that long, then fire magic > COTF magic, and not by a narrow margin. Bloodraven is barely over one hundred, and near falling apart.

I thought about the Doom also.  It makes me wonder if she was born in Valyria and sold to Ashai or something.

You also mention fire magic vs cotf magic and I can't help think of what Aemon says about Ice preserves and fire consumes.  It seems strange/ wrong even for fire to preserve.  

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16 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I thought about the Doom also.  It makes me wonder if she was born in Valyria and sold to Ashai or something.

You also mention fire magic vs cotf magic and I can't help think of what Aemon says about Ice preserves and fire consumes.  It seems strange/ wrong even for fire to preserve.  

In fact, this sentiment is echoed by Beric in Arya's POV. Beric tells Thoros in reference to the fire inside of him that "Fire consumes. It consumes until nothing is left." (That quote is from memory.)

This is why I think a combination of ice and fire magic will be involved in Jon's resurrection. Actually, if he is warged until he is resurrected, in may be a confluence of all three types of magic.

 

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Well, I think we can be pretty certain that the books will contain the same about Melisandre as we saw in the show. It felt pretty genuine (compare this to the dornish arc this episode who most certainly won´t go down in the books as it did but instead was a cheap shortcut in order to make future dornish actions more sensible to the watchers).

When it comes to who Melisandre is, I think she is just alive, old, fueled with some sort of divine spirit and/or strong magic power and very much who she say she is. It feels unlikely that her "true identity" will be a "known" name.

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1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Well, I think we can be pretty certain that the books will contain the same about Melisandre as we saw in the show. It felt pretty genuine (compare this to the dornish arc this episode who most certainly won´t go down in the books as it did but instead was a cheap shortcut in order to make future dornish actions more sensible to the watchers).

When it comes to who Melisandre is, I think she is just alive, old, fueled with some sort of divine spirit and/or strong magic power and very much who she say she is. It feels unlikely that her "true identity" will be a "known" name.

And I really hope it isn't.  Not every mysterious character in the books needs to be someone of note mentioned elsewhere.  I really hope Mel is just Mel.  Although for someone who has lived through a few centuries she's not very wise or good at prophecies it seems!

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1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

I really hope Mel is just Mel. 

In this camp.. one thing though..

If Mel is as old as she is (confirmed for show.. not books) then that would mean that she, regardless of who she is, has managed to maintain a powerful form of fire magic, EVEN through the decline of Valyria and the dragons. That is huge to me. It's been pretty constantly mentioned (at least.. bookwise) that the decline of magic coincided with the decline of the dragons. Now, I am not saying that just because it was in the show it will be the same in the book, but I think that's a morsel I can chew on for a bit.

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6 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I do love this forum and the way people seem to constantly question D&D's basic level of intelligence or dismiss them as liars.  They are quite successful at their craft.  They aren't dumb.  I'm pretty sure they have discussed in great length and detail many nuances of the story and back  story with GRRM.  As demonstrated with the Mercy chapter they definitely have access to unreleased material.

GRRM is not infallible.  D&D are not 100% fallible.  People need to stop trying to spin things to suit their hopes and views and face some facts.  D&D know more about the story and lore than almost everyone who posts on these forums.  They speak directly to the man himself.  If they are unsure about something I am sure they can just give GRRM a quick call and clarify.

It is nice to see someone drop the hammer of rationality in here. Keep it up 

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I thought about the Doom also.  It makes me wonder if she was born in Valyria and sold to Ashai or something.

You also mention fire magic vs cotf magic and I can't help think of what Aemon says about Ice preserves and fire consumes.  It seems strange/ wrong even for fire to preserve.  

I think the overarching theme of the book is that magic is magic. It is neither good, nor evil, hot nor cold ect. It is what it is. That is why we see so many similarities between disparate fields of magic. For example, the magic of weirwood trees and the paste eaten to increase the power of the user to see farther is, on the surface similar to the shade of the evening evening and how consuming it opens your mind to visions so you can see more.  It why the "Ice magic" in the wall stops the Ice demons and why Fire magic restores and preserves people 

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