Melissandre spoilers included

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 minutes ago, bent branch said:

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

I think SHE had to work at it to earn a place as a priest. I think that actually as children are purchased/gifted. They are simply tested for magical abillity, the test likely being whether they can learn to read the flames or not. And those who lack it are assigned as Sacred Prostitutes or Fiery Hands and tattooed accordingly. If we take the line I have highlighted, it hints at Mel having been initially assigned the former. 

We learn from Tyrion that the Fiery hands in Volantis have a hand of flame tattooed upon their face, and we also learn from him that in the city and it's outlying provinces the sex slaves are tattooed with tears upon their cheek. It makes perfect sense then, that temple prostitutes have tears of flame. 

Do you happen to have the passage to hand where Thoros describes the Kiss to Arya? I can't recall if he says he had ever received it? Only that he has seen it performed many times. But never before was there any effect.

I do think that those who've had it done have  a literal flame inside them, Beric actually breathes his into Cat which is what reanimates her. He doesn't speak the special words, which is what makes me think the spell creates the special fire, and that it is this flame which sustains the persons life, and not the "prayer". 

[queen of meraxes]

Melisandre is just Melisandre for me. The arc of her character included with the details of immortality or other magical stuff is highly related to Asshai. The city was described as almost died but we know that shadowbinders and other magical stuff live there. There is no real life in Asshai but magic lives. Mel is the flesh of Asshai and its magics. I give up to relate her any known historical character in the ASOIAF universe.Her role is to tell fire magic and Dragons.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Actually, this is one of the few instances in which I acknowledge the relevance of strange and fitting descriptions. Shiera and Melisandre share a heart-shaped face, something doesn't come up with any other woman that is described in the series. In addition, there is the not necessarily accidental similarities between the names Melisandre, Melony, and Melantha (Blackwood).

Melisandre is the only (seemingly) Essosi character who depicts any interest in Westeros and the people there. That makes it not unlikely she has a connection to them. The idea is not that Mel grew up in Westeros - her memories of Melony seem to suggest she was separated from her mother at a rather early age - but that she became a slave in her youth.

I don't think it makes sense to see the novellas as separate from the novels. George thinks about both of them and makes those connections. Shiera may easily have been invented to serve as a mother for Melisandre. Just as Bloodraven was invented to be the three-eyed crow, and Daemon Blackfyre to be (possibly) the ancestor of Aegon, not the other way around.

I admit, of course, that Melisandre could be somebody else, but it is not very likely that she is going to turn out to be just 'some woman'. 

In terms of names, it could just be that Martin likes names that begin with Mel.  There's Melantha and Melange in his short stories.

[Lord Varys]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

The idea that Thoros' spell worked just because of the return of the dragons would be actually very odd. There are no reports about the rise of many dead people all around Westeros and Essos who received their last rites from a red priests or a red priestess. And we would have heard if that was suddenly working again from the likes of Benerro and Moqorro in ADwD (or from the citizenry of various great cities with a red temple including Braavos, Volantis, and Oldtown).

And if the death of the dragons really affected fire magic deeply then one would expect that Melisandre's spell would have failed her, too, and she would have died/lost her powers.

The fact that poor Beric was resurrected multiple times but Thoros either never tried or succeeded in resurrecting anyone else in the Brotherhood is a pretty big hint that he was special. Not to mention that he suddenly was able to use his blood to set his sword aflame.

[aryagonnakill#2]

There is also an interesting connection between Mel and the Night King.  It is said that when the Night King lay with his WW bride he gave her his seed and his soul.  This reminds me a lot of how Mel seems to have literally taken a piece of Stannis's soul or essence to create the shadow babies.  Stannis is diminished afterwards in his appearance and even remembers killing Renly.  Tho there are other shadow binders besides Mel, but I definitely think it's interesting.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

4 hours ago, bent branch said:

Sorry my posts fucking up as per usual. 

I admit, that is the flaw in my idea. 

But I'm disinclined to think it is much more than just a lack of thinking through all the implications on the authors part. As otherwise we have to ask ourselves what is special about Thoros, and why does this commonly vocalised incantation bring Beric back to life for him, but not work for every other Red Priest? And I am yet to see a single sensible argument to show Thoros has anything of particular merit about him, which any other Red Priest does not. Nor can it be Beric who is special, as if that were so the flame should not have been passable to Catelyn. 

As to the sword alighting, am I correct in thinking that it is done by anointing it with their own blood, by running it along the hand, or was that some show Bull Shittery? 

I had just assumed that Thoros's penchant for a flaming sword comes from the AAR prophesy being integral to Rh'llorism, and that a spell "prayer" is known which is supposed to alight a sword too, and Thoros thought, "fuck it the kiss worked, lets give this one a shot too, wll bugger me sideways it only bloody works!!!"

Magic was at a low, not gone altogether, I assume Mel being pre wighted just continued in her undead state. 

Moqorro I suspect as one too, as otherwise how on earth would he survive ten days and nights adrift at sea? 

 

 

[The Truth]

It was hinted in the books. With things like "she was mastering her craft long before her days in Asshai

Side note, she is def the daughter of Blood Raven and Shiera Seastar

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, The Truth said:

It was hinted in the books. With things like "she was mastering her craft long before her days in Asshai

Side note, she is def the daughter of Blood Raven and Shiera Seastar

Nope, too old. 

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think SHE had to work at it to earn a place as a priest. I think that actually as children are purchased/gifted. They are simply tested for magical abillity, the test likely being whether they can learn to read the flames or not. And those who lack it are assigned as Sacred Prostitutes or Fiery Hands and tattooed accordingly. If we take the line I have highlighted, it hints at Mel having been initially assigned the former. 

We learn from Tyrion that the Fiery hands in Volantis have a hand of flame tattooed upon their face, and we also learn from him that in the city and it's outlying provinces the sex slaves are tattooed with tears upon their cheek. It makes perfect sense then, that temple prostitutes have tears of flame. 

Do you happen to have the passage to hand where Thoros describes the Kiss to Arya? I can't recall if he says he had ever received it? Only that he has seen it performed many times. But never before was there any effect.

I do think that those who've had it done have  a literal flame inside them, Beric actually breathes his into Cat which is what reanimates her. He doesn't speak the special words, which is what makes me think the spell creates the special fire, and that it is this flame which sustains the persons life, and not the "prayer". 

 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I admit, that is the flaw in my idea. 

But I'm disinclined to think it is much more than just a lack of thinking through all the implications on the authors part. As otherwise we have to ask ourselves what is special about Thoros, and why does this commonly vocalised incantation bring Beric back to life for him, but not work for every other Red Priest? And I am yet to see a single sensible argument to show Thoros has anything of particular merit about him, which any other Red Priest does not. Nor can it be Beric who is special, as if that were so the flame should not have been passable to Catelyn. 

As to the sword alighting, am I correct in thinking that it is done by anointing it with their own blood, by running it along the hand, or was that some show Bull Shittery? 

I had just assumed that Thoros's penchant for a flaming sword comes from the AAR prophesy being integral to Rh'llorism, and that a spell "prayer" is known which is supposed to alight a sword too, and Thoros thought, "fuck it the kiss worked, lets give this one a shot too, wll bugger me sideways it only bloody works!!!"

Magic was at a low, not gone altogether, I assume Mel being pre wighted just continued in her undead state. 

Moqorro I suspect as one too, as otherwise how on earth would he survive ten days and nights adrift at sea? 

There is no text supporting Thoros being given the last kiss, but that isn't how I see living recipients taking in the fire. I think they drink it in, like Melisandre sees in her memory. As far as the tears go, you are talking about tattoo tears but I'm talking about real tears that she is crying from her eyes. She keeps drinking in even though she is crying tears of flame. To me, Melisandre's memories call to mind what we hear of Victarion's experience. Both seem to me to be experiencing ecstatic religious events. I am using the word ecstatic with this definition: involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence. Additionally, there is no reason to believe Melisandre came from Volantis or its environs and this is the only place that insists upon tattooing slaves' faces.

Why does the fire not raise all of those to whom the last kiss was given? Why does drinking in the fire not make all into red priests? It doesn't work on everyone and I'm not really sure why. Does the fire choose who it will pass to? Are only some people capable of holding the fire within? It could be either of these things. Because of the path of the fire from Thoros to Beric to Catelyn, I am inclined to believe that the fire chooses who it will pass to. Elsewise why would Beric be able to pass the fire to Catelyn. As you've pointed out, Beric was not trained in how to pass the fire.

Yes, the fire comes from their blood on the sword. What I was pointing out here was that Thoros was lighting up his sword with his own blood. This is a sign that Thoros has the fire in him.

Again, these are the words that Thoros uses to try to explain what is going on with Beric, "It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, warmth is fire, fire is God's and God's alone." This implies an intentionality to the fire. Where does this intentionality come from? Is it fate? Is it R'hllor? Who knows? I don't. Sometimes all we can do is witness a phenomenon without understanding its causality.

[Durran Durrandon]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I admit, that is the flaw in my idea. 

But I'm disinclined to think it is much more than just a lack of thinking through all the implications on the authors part. As otherwise we have to ask ourselves what is special about Thoros, and why does this commonly vocalised incantation bring Beric back to life for him, but not work for every other Red Priest? And I am yet to see a single sensible argument to show Thoros has anything of particular merit about him, which any other Red Priest does not. Nor can it be Beric who is special, as if that were so the flame should not have been passable to Catelyn. 

As to the sword alighting, am I correct in thinking that it is done by anointing it with their own blood, by running it along the hand, or was that some show Bull Shittery? 

I had just assumed that Thoros's penchant for a flaming sword comes from the AAR prophesy being integral to Rh'llorism, and that a spell "prayer" is known which is supposed to alight a sword too, and Thoros thought, "fuck it the kiss worked, lets give this one a shot too, wll bugger me sideways it only bloody works!!!"

Magic was at a low, not gone altogether, I assume Mel being pre wighted just continued in her undead state. 

Moqorro I suspect as one too, as otherwise how on earth would he survive ten days and nights adrift at sea? 

 

 

So much here. No, I don't think Thoros or Beric are in themselves special, so why do we get this one off miracle? I'm just thinking out loud here, but miracles traditionally occur, because the gods will it, yeah? I tend to take the gods in the story to not be real, or else to simply be magical forces without any personification, but if you stop for a second and go counter factual, what if R'hllor is real or some personified intelligence controls this magic, then the answer becomes pretty clear: Thoros was able to resurrect Beric, because R'hllor needed to spark a religious movement friendly to the Red Priests in the Riverlands, R'hllor is assembling an army to fight the Great Other.

Now I don't like that answer, but it certainly has to be on the table.

And yes Moqorro and Mel are both, what they are, but I always caution against the label wight. They really parallel the Others, much more so than the wights.

And the flaming swords, I always assumed Thoros used wild fire, but Beric definitely uses his own blood.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I think the rite that rose Beric worked because Thoros loved him and actually physically kissed him on the lips.  That contact transferred the life that raised him from the dead, Thoros may have performed the rites many times before but never actually kissed the dead person.

[Dijkstra]

My Opinion

Melisandre/Melony is the bastard daughter of Prince Aemond and the witch Alys Rivers 

She was send to Essos with Tyland Lannister by her uncle Aegon II and forgotten after the deaths of Aegon II/Larys Strong/Tyland Lannister

Without protection she was sold into slavery 

• Mel has the same mystic powers as her mother Alys Rivers --> and why she was recruited by the Red Faith as priest
  • The Ghost of High Heart is very old and from the Riverlands like Alys Rivers
• Her father Aemond was a powerful Dragonrider and his bastard was conceived on the back of a dragon -> Mel's Stone Dragon obsession
• Named after her parents: Aemond + Alys = Melony 
• The bastad would be over 170 years old = older as Bloodraven and Seastar
• Aemond was introduced in ADwD
• Melisandre = Ruby ; Aemond = Sapphire
• The vision of falling towers = Her Grandmother was a member of House Hightower

 

 

[Muggle]

Mel isnt "undead". She is just fire made flesh. Very similar to Vic arm being made into fire made flesh when he was "healed" His hand cracks and smokes and is all burnt up but much stronger then before.  Or even a dragon they have black blood that smokes and they are considered fire made flesh.

The parallel is The Others are Ice made Flesh hence the melting.  The Show shows and books hints that humans are transformed into Others thus Ice made Flesh.

This is why Mel isn't empty or hollow inside.  She is not the same as Beric or Uncat. She wont have to sacrifice her life for Jon's she was alive when transformed not revived.  Its more likley to me that Ghost will be sacrificed seeing as Shireen is already gone and she cant her use kings blood in the ritual.

[evita mgfs]

Melisandre is a magician, and she can perform artifice, illusion, and glamor.  Mel has not died - yet.  She is an old crone who wears a disguise of light and shadow!  Yikes!

[Lord Varys]

I have a theory how much of this stuff could fit together and possibly cast a little bit of light on future events. But it is a little bit speculative.

We know

- that R'hllorism was one of many religions back in Old Valyria. They had temples there, and apparently the red priests also provided there very own interpretation for the Doom of Valyria (which is nonsense, most likely).

- that dragonlord blood is believed to be special in the sense that it can help you create a permanent bond with a dragons (and dragons are 'fire made flesh').

- that fire magic was one part of the backbone of Valyrian power and that the Valyrian sorcerers were the most powerful in the entire world.

I presuppose the following things:

1. The spell which found its way as a prayer into the rites of the red priests was originally developed by Valyrian sorcerers. It's original purpose was to resurrect dead Valyrians who had the blood of the dragon. The spell's power reacted with the innate magic of dragonlord blood and thus brought the dead person back to life. There is nothing in the text to support this as of yet but it would make sense that the dragonlords would try to use their magics to mess with life and death, prolonging the life of the living and restoring life to their dead.

2. That Beric Dondarrion actually did have a drop of Targaryen blood which is the reason/explanation why the prayer-spell did work on him. I base this on the fact that Baelor Breakspear was married to a Jena Dondarrion and assume that this was the case because she herself was a Targaryen cousin through the female line and subsequently many other Dondarrions would be distant Targaryen cousins to this day. Catelyn Tully also might have had a drop of Targaryen blood if we assume that there one of her direct ancestors took a Lothston girl to wife or a Lord Tully married one of the two sisters of Bloodraven. But that is not necessary for the theory because Thoros' spell was never tested on Catelyn - Beric passed on the magic/spell that had restored life to him and it might be that you can do that after both parts of the spell (dragonlord blood and the fire kiss part of the spell) came together. The importance of magical blood is also hinted at in Beric due to the fact that his blood can suddenly set swords aflame.

3. Only since the return of the dragons can the kiss of fire + dragonlord blood spell actually resurrect people.

This explains the following mysteries:

1. Why there is no growing army of resurrected people all over the Free Cities and Oldtown. People die all the time and one should assume that this kiss of fire isn't reserved as a funeral rite only for an elite class. We know that mostly slaves follow R'hllor in Volantis - which could be a hint why no Volantenes are reported to have returned from the dead yet. In Lys other gods seem to be more popular than Red R'hllor.

2. Why Thoros couldn't bring back any of the other dead men and women from the Brotherhood. Beric is brought back multiple times but he doesn't try the spell/prayer on other fallen comrades? That doesn't make any sense. One would assume that the first miraculous return of Beric caused Thoros to try to bring back other dead friends, too - without any positive result. Only that can reasonably explain why Thoros would be desperate enough to bring back Beric again and again after he continued to die. He was the only guy he could bring back and he could not allow him to stay dead because he was the glue that kept the movement alive and together (which wouldn't be necessary or the case if Thoros could resurrect any dead person).

And, as to future implications:

3. We also know that Brienne has a recent Targaryen ancestor. And she carries a sword made of Valyrian steel. I'm not saying she is going to die and be resurrected but if Beric's Targaryen blood was the reason why he could set his sword aflame then one really wonders what Brienne could do if she smeared her blood on a Valyrian steel sword... And the same goes, of course, for Jon Snow who has an immediate Targaryen ancestor. In fact, if the trouble with Beric's memories and personality was due to both his diluted Targaryen blood as well as the number of resurrections Jon Snow could actually strengthened and not weakened by a resurrection the R'hllorian way. The spell would have much purer dragonlord blood to react with and so the result could be much more miraculous and powerful than it was in Beric's case.

As to Melisandre:

I don't think she has been brought back from the dead via the prayer-spell but if she has Targaryen blood this certainly would be a possibility. But her dragonlord blood could also have helped her to deal with the amount of fire she has apparently drunk/absorbed into her body. She seems to be a very special red priestess insofar as her innate heat is concerned. 

[Neds Secret]

On 25 April 2016 at 3:54 AM, Ser Gareth said:

I do love this forum and the way people seem to constantly question D&D's basic level of intelligence or dismiss them as liars.  They are quite successful at their craft.  They aren't dumb.  I'm pretty sure they have discussed in great length and detail many nuances of the story and back  story with GRRM.  As demonstrated with the Mercy chapter they definitely have access to unreleased material.

GRRM is not infallible.  D&D are not 100% fallible.  People need to stop trying to spin things to suit their hopes and views and face some facts.  D&D know more about the story and lore than almost everyone who posts on these forums.  They speak directly to the man himself.  If they are unsure about something I am sure they can just give GRRM a quick call and clarify.

 

Thank you for your kindly reminder, will most definitely remember this information. Tah 

[Neds Secret]

11 hours ago, Tiax said:

My Opinion

Melisandre/Melony is the bastard daughter of Prince Aemond and the witch Alys Rivers 

She was send to Essos with Tyland Lannister by her uncle Aegon II and forgotten after the deaths of Aegon II/Larys Strong/Tyland Lannister

Without protection she was sold slavery 

• Mel has the same mystic powers as her mother Alys Rivers --> and why she was recruited by the Red Faith as priest
  • The Ghost of High Heart is very old and from the Riverlands like Alys Rivers
• Her father Aemond was a powerful Dragonrider and his bastard was conceived on the back of a dragon -> Mel's Stone Dragon
• Named after her parents: Aemond + Alys = Melony 
• The bastad would be over 170 years old = older as Bloodraven and Seastar
• Aemond was introduced in ADwD
• Melisandre = Ruby ; Aemond = Sapphire
• The vision of falling towers = Her Grandmother was a member of House Hightower

 

 

I like it!

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

On 26 April 2016 at 1:47 AM, Cagey Bee said:

In this camp.. one thing though..

If Mel is as old as she is (confirmed for show.. not books) then that would mean that she, regardless of who she is, has managed to maintain a powerful form of fire magic, EVEN through the decline of Valyria and the dragons. That is huge to me. It's been pretty constantly mentioned (at least.. bookwise) that the decline of magic coincided with the decline of the dragons. Now, I am not saying that just because it was in the show it will be the same in the book, but I think that's a morsel I can chew on for a bit.

This is exactly what I was thinking too.  How has she kept this going with the total decline in magic of the last 150ish years? 

I think it may be something to do with Asshai and the shadowlands.  In my mind, the shadowlands are the fire magic equivalent of the heart of winter.  If Mel was living in Asshai for the last 150+ years then her magic may still have endured.  

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

This is exactly what I was thinking too.  How has she kept this going with the total decline in magic of the last 150ish years? 

I think it may be something to do with Asshai and the shadowlands.  In my mind, the shadowlands are the fire magic equivalent of the heart of winter.  If Mel was living in Asshai for the last 150+ years then her magic may still have endured.  

I think that magic waxes and wanes throughout the world.  There was a period of waning when it almost died out in Westeros (I say almost, because Bloodraven was clearly a skilled sorcerer) and weakened in the East (eg the decline of the Warlocks in Qarth).  However, I imagine that magic always remained strong in Asshai, for it still to be studied there.  Now magic is waxing throughout the World, either because of the rebirth of dragons, or for the same reason that dragons were reborn, and the Others came back into the world.

I agree with The Weirwood's Eyes that Melisandre started off as a temple prostitute, before her superiors spotted that she had magical abilities.  Then at some point, she went to Asshai to complete her studies.  I think of Asshai as being like a university city, given over to studying magic.

[Lord Varys]

@SeanF

There is actually no hint that magic in general waxes and wanes. We have no reason to believe the Faceless Men, the Others, the Children of the Forest, the Green Men, or the Lhazareen godswives had any trouble working magic.

What's confirmed is that fire magic and spells based on fire grew much more powerful both in Qarth and in KL after the return of the dragons. That's really all. How things stand in Asshai we really don't know. And, of course, even fire magic was never completely gone or dead. It was just much weaker than in the dragon days.