Melissandre spoilers included

[Faint]

This is just a guess but I have my doubts that the Red Temple sent Melisandre to Asshai. That journey was likely on her own initiative long after she became a red priest. Her real name is interesting. It does not have much of an eastern flavor. With the facts available to us, the most probable origin for her is the daughter of some whore from Lys or elsewhere sold into slavery and bought by the Red Temple in Volantis (as heavily implied on the show).

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Faint said:

This is just a guess but I have my doubts that the Red Temple sent Melisandre to Asshai. That journey was likely on her own initiative long after she became a red priest. Her real name is interesting. It does not have much of an eastern flavor. With the facts available to us, the most probable origin for her is the daughter of some whore from Lys or elsewhere sold into slavery and bought by the Red Temple in Volantis (as heavily implied on the show).

Yes it is possible. Asshai is the land of shadows. The Shadowbinders are dealing with shadows, are going to Stygai. The Shadowbinders, the bloodmages have all dealings in Asshai. But of what nature is unclear.

Melisandre is a shadowbinder too. She was trained is Asshai. Why? Is it usual for Red Priests? Is Moqorro magic different? Is he a shadowbinder or a bloodmage too? Do some gifted Red Priests are routinely trained in Asshai?  I don't know. But I like none of them. They are all dealing with necromancy and human sacrifice. If they are different, have different goals, they all share the same methods. I would rather think R'hllor is their master or feeding their magic to all.

[bent branch]

Here are some random observations that may or may not be of use in thinking of Melisandre:

1)  Although the priests of R'hllor are actually slaves of the temples (as far as I know there are no exceptions), they have an extreme amount of freedom. In fact, I suggest it is their status as slaves that gives them such freedom. If they were not slaves they could be captured as slaves and sold. Already being property of the temple makes them able to move freely without fear of being taken as a slave.

2)  This quote indicates that what happened to Mel in Asshai is what shapes who she is now:

Quote

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortlessly the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer. ADWD - Chapter 31

To me, this indicates that Melisandre divides her life into before and after Asshai. This in turn indicates to me that whatever happened in Asshai left Mel a changed woman with different goals in life.

3)  The Red Religion is very loosely organized. The evidence of this is that both Thoros and Mel go "missing" and no one in particular notices. Both Ezzelyno and Thoros live pretty debauched lives and no one ever reprimands or even particularly notices.

4)  I've said this one before, but I'll repeat. There is no indication that red priests "earn" their status. Thoros stated that he didn't want to be a priest, but they made him one anyway. This indicates that the red priests are chosen for a characteristic they all share rather than any particular effort on their part. This is why no one really cares how badly Thoros and Ezzelyno behaves. 

[BalerionTheCat]

22 minutes ago, bent branch said:

To me, this indicates that Melisandre divides her life into before and after Asshai. This in turn indicates to me that whatever happened in Asshai left Mel a changed woman with different goals in life.

The lesson (to hide what it cost her) was learnt before Asshai. So when she was probably a slave. The before is the important word I believe. But yes, most likely Asshai changed her. She became shadowbinder.

[bent branch]

45 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The lesson (to hide what it cost her) was learnt before Asshai. So when she was probably a slave. The before is the important word I believe. But yes, most likely Asshai changed her. She became shadowbinder.

Yes, before is a significant word. It indicates a dividing line. Melisandre could have chosen any dividing line in her life. She could have said before she became a slave or before she became a red priest or really anything. In real life people might choose dividing lines lines like: before I married or before I graduated. In Mel's life that major event dividing her life into before and after appears to be Asshai. I hope this all makes sense.

[Ser Gareth]

On 30/04/2016 at 3:00 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

A year ago the D's did an interview and basically admitted they never read past Storm/ the red wedding. It's at the 13:50 mark. 

And it is explained that there are only 4 people in the writers room and GRRM is not one of them. http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-how-a-season-is-written-bryan-cogman/

George doesn't meet with them that often anymore and he has not written an episode since season 3. He has not told the showrunners everything. 

"They know certain things. I’ve told them certain things. So they have some knowledge, but the devil is in the details." http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/03/george-r-r-martin-interview

As to the OP, it's possible that the ones interviewed were purposely ambiguous because the show isn't able to go into the full background stories of each character and maybe, for show purposes, the only thing we need to know is that Mel is really old.

I know the Bloodraven+Shiera= Mel theory and it is very convincing, but maybe a few too many circumstantial pieces of info. 

Radio Westeros does a great job of explaining the theory, even if you don't agree  http://radiowesteros.com/radio-westeros-e03-melisandre-a-red-red-star

 

And yet they knew about Shireen burning, they knew about the unreleased Mercy chapter, they knew about Dany being taken by the Dothraki, they knew about Jon Snow being killed by members of his own watch, they knew about Stannis marching on Winterfell.

I'd very much take what anyone says publically now with a pinch of salt.  There are commercial factors at play.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, bent branch said:

I pretty much agree. I'm mostly just putting my vote in for the scrolls in Asshai to be non-R'hllorian. I think what Mel found in Asshai is what set her off on her unique path.

We don't know, really. What I meant is that the Asshai'i scrolls were most likely not originally written by R'hllorians. But that does not prevent them from stealing and incorporating them or their content into their own belief system. Just look what Christianity did to the ancient Jewish scriptures or Islam later to the content of both those religions.

Since we see that the story of a savior is very prominent in various eastern lands it wouldn't be a surprise if the Red Priests had adopted and integrated those legends and prophecies into their own religion. That's how such things are done, after all.

I don't see a big difference between Benerro and Melisandre. Both seem to be looking for the same savior - they just choose different people. And while Melisandre is generally a bigger religious fanatic (interpreting the savior stuff mostly in strictly religious terms - the champion of R'hllor vs. the Great Other instead of grounding things in physical reality) Benerro phrases things more mundane by actually making promises to the faithful should they fight and die for Daenerys' cause.

It could be that Melisandre gained some knowledge in Asshai that sets her apart from other Red Priests. But it is just as possible that she only gained more magical knowledge and powers there, powers that other Red Priests do not have. The average Red Priests isn't a shadowbinder, after all.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

And yet they knew about Shireen burning, they knew about the unreleased Mercy chapter, they knew about Dany being taken by the Dothraki, they knew about Jon Snow being killed by members of his own watch, they knew about Stannis marching on Winterfell.

I'd very much take what anyone says publically now with a pinch of salt.  There are commercial factors at play.

Things easily deceived in a bulletpoint synopsis, or the wiki. That would be the "broad strokes" we hear so much about. 

No, seriously, they said it in an interview and it wasn't a "ha ha, just kidding audience," type of way. And this could help explain why the age of Mel varies between the showrunners and actors. 

Why is it when an actor says "I never understood my character and I couldn't get answers", he is just kidding and we aren't supposed to take him serious. But when Benioff says "we've talked to George," it means they call him on a whim and ask questions? I'm not going to turn this into a thread that it isn't. 

[bent branch]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 1:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

We don't know, really. What I meant is that the Asshai'i scrolls were most likely not originally written by R'hllorians. But that does not prevent them from stealing and incorporating them or their content into their own belief system. Just look what Christianity did to the ancient Jewish scriptures or Islam later to the content of both those religions.

Since we see that the story of a savior is very prominent in various eastern lands it wouldn't be a surprise if the Red Priests had adopted and integrated those legends and prophecies into their own religion. That's how such things are done, after all.

I don't see a big difference between Benerro and Melisandre. Both seem to be looking for the same savior - they just choose different people. And while Melisandre is generally a bigger religious fanatic (interpreting the savior stuff mostly in strictly religious terms - the champion of R'hllor vs. the Great Other instead of grounding things in physical reality) Benerro phrases things more mundane by actually making promises to the faithful should they fight and die for Daenerys' cause.

It could be that Melisandre gained some knowledge in Asshai that sets her apart from other Red Priests. But it is just as possible that she only gained more magical knowledge and powers there, powers that other Red Priests do not have. The average Red Priests isn't a shadowbinder, after all.

I have been thinking about how to respond. The difference in the teachings between Benerro and Melisandre are as wide as the differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, maybe even as wide as the differences between Christianity and Islam. And there is lots of evidence that these differences evolved from what Melisandre learned in Asshai. The question is, do readers know it when they read it? While the signs of the prophesized one are the same between Melisandre and Benerro (we really don't get very much from Moqorro), everything else is different. Really.

Here is what Benerro thinks is at stake (ADWD - Chapter 22):

Quote

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned...and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end...death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn..."

Now here is what Melisandre thinks is at stake (AFFC - Chapter 78):
 

Quote

 

"Nightfires?" Bowen Marsh gave Melisandre an uncertain look. "We're to light nightfires now?"

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

 

And here is who Benerro thinks is the enemy that AA/PTWP has come to fight (ADWD - Chapter 27):

Quote

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit...conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders..."

And now who Melisandre thinks is AA/PTWP's opponent (ASOS - Chapter 25):
 

Quote

 

"The war?" asked Davos.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half a world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly--does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

 

Beyond the signs surrounding the coming of AA/PTWP, the message of these two people have practically nothing to do with each other. Benerro is talking about a hero that will free the slaves and bring a more just world. Melisandre is talking about Armageddon. Seriously, if readers can't see that these are two different messages, then they might simply think that Melisandre and Benerro (Moqorro is just following Benerro's orders) have just chosen different people. However, taken in total it is obvious that Melisandre has a whole lot more understanding of what is going on than Benerro.

There are really only one of three ways to explain the differences between the beliefs of these two people.

1)  Melisandre learned of the true threat through her fires.

2)  Melisandre learned of the true threat through ancient texts in Asshai.

3)  Melisandre learned of the true threat through ancient texts in Asshai and her fires.

Personally, I pick number three.

[Lord Varys]

@bent branch

I'm complete agreement that Melisandre has a much narrower view on things and seems in general much more zealous than Benerro and Moqorro (or Thoros). She essentially is a very naive and religious nut who actually believes her god makes the sun rise each day and the rituals and prayers she practices can make a difference in things like that.

[She might not be wrong in the view that the sun rising each day isn't self-evident, of course, there once was a Long Night and it seems as if a second is about to come. But things being such-and-such doesn't prove your god exists or your religious doctrine is correct.]

But there is no reason to believe that Melisandre of Asshai actually understands what's going on or that her religious world view/system is particularly well suited to explain how things are or help the people to properly react to it.

In fact, prior to Aemon's letter Melisandre had apparently no clue that the Others and wights existed at all, nor was she urging Stannis to do anything about this very concrete threat - because she didn't know anything about it. Now that she knows she incorporates the Others and wights into her religious world view and doctrine but this doesn't mean that the Great Other she is so obsessed about actually exists (and she already had made a mistake when she interpreted Bloodraven and Bran as champions of the Great Other).

In that sense I don't see a big difference between Benerro and Melisandre at all. Both know prophecies about some reborn Azor Ahai hero guy who is supposed to save the world/fight against evil. But their culture/society determines what they see as evil and also how they think the savior should deal with it.

In that sense Mel and Benerro don't differ all that much in their interpretation from their hero. Both see Stannis and Dany as real people they want to fulfill a certain role. In Stannis' case it is more vague but one assumes that Mel originally wanted to make him king to have him convert the people of Westeros to the truth of R'hllor and defeat 'evil' in the process. Benerro has the same metaphysical goal but in his interpretation it also seems to coincide with Dany's crusade against slavery.

What Asshai has to do with any of that we really don't know. We don't know what Mel read there - or if read all that much there at all that wasn't already known in her Red Temple - but I think we can agree that she lealred those magical abilities that have nothing to do with fire magic in Asshai (glamors and shadowbinding for one).

[bent branch]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@bent branch

I'm complete agreement that Melisandre has a much narrower view on things and seems in general much more zealous than Benerro and Moqorro (or Thoros). She essentially is a very naive and religious nut who actually believes her god makes the sun rise each day and the rituals and prayers she practices can make a difference in things like that.

[She might not be wrong in the view that the sun rising each day isn't self-evident, of course, there once was a Long Night and it seems as if a second is about to come. But things being such-and-such doesn't prove your god exists or your religious doctrine is correct.]

But there is no reason to believe that Melisandre of Asshai actually understands what's going on or that her religious world view/system is particularly well suited to explain how things are or help the people to properly react to it.

In fact, prior to Aemon's letter Melisandre had apparently no clue that the Others and wights existed at all, nor was she urging Stannis to do anything about this very concrete threat - because she didn't know anything about it. Now that she knows she incorporates the Others and wights into her religious world view and doctrine but this doesn't mean that the Great Other she is so obsessed about actually exists (and she already had made a mistake when she interpreted Bloodraven and Bran as champions of the Great Other).

In that sense I don't see a big difference between Benerro and Melisandre at all. Both know prophecies about some reborn Azor Ahai hero guy who is supposed to save the world/fight against evil. But their culture/society determines what they see as evil and also how they think the savior should deal with it.

In that sense Mel and Benerro don't differ all that much in their interpretation from their hero. Both see Stannis and Dany as real people they want to fulfill a certain role. In Stannis' case it is more vague but one assumes that Mel originally wanted to make him king to have him convert the people of Westeros to the truth of R'hllor and defeat 'evil' in the process. Benerro has the same metaphysical goal but in his interpretation it also seems to coincide with Dany's crusade against slavery.

What Asshai has to do with any of that we really don't know. We don't know what Mel read there - or if read all that much there at all that wasn't already known in her Red Temple - but I think we can agree that she lealred those magical abilities that have nothing to do with fire magic in Asshai (glamors and shadowbinding for one).

In the quote I provided where Melisandre is talking to Davos, it is clear that Melisandre realizes there is an existential threat to the world. This is before Aemon's letter. Melisandre may not be aware of where the threat is coming from, but she knows it's coming.

The fact that you find Benerro's slave war equal to Melisandre's Armageddon says far more about you than Melisandre's fanaticism. Yes, the tone and tenor of Benerro and Melisandre's teaching is different, but Melisandre has a much more dire message than Benerro. Aemon confirms that Melisandre is essentially correct in her interpretation of the prophecies (not the details, but bigger picture). If Benerro has this information available to him, why is he preaching an earthly war rather than Armageddon?

You can go on thinking that Benerro and Melisandre are using the same playbook, but that is not supported by the text.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

In the quote I provided where Melisandre is talking to Davos, it is clear that Melisandre realizes there is an existential threat to the world. This is before Aemon's letter. Melisandre may not be aware of where the threat is coming from, but she knows it's coming.

The fact that you find Benerro's slave war equal to Melisandre's Armageddon says far more about you than Melisandre's fanaticism. Yes, the tone and tenor of Benerro and Melisandre's teaching is different, but Melisandre has a much more dire message than Benerro. Aemon confirms that Melisandre is essentially correct in her interpretation of the prophecies (not the details, but bigger picture). If Benerro has this information available to him, why is he preaching an earthly war rather than Armageddon?

You can go on thinking that Benerro and Melisandre are using the same playbook, but that is not supported by the text.

Well, what Melisandre tells Davos doesn't necessarily point to an existential worldly threat. It could also be an existential metaphysical threat the savior has to deal with. Sure, ice demons could be meant by it, too, but I actually see no reason why Mel couldn't also fill the empty rhetoric she used in ASoS when talking to Davos in the dungeons with 'heresy/heretics', 'false religion(s)', or 'evil people following the Great Other consciously or unconsciously'. If Mel actually expected some sort of existential real world threat one really wonders why she h

Any religious zealot can tell you he or she has not come to seat another king on the throne but is fighting the just war against evil. That doesn't mean it is true, though. I'm not sure it makes much sense to assume that Mel is aware the threat the reborn Azor Ahai will have to deal with is worldly and then help him to weaken the land/people he is going to defend even further. I mean, if the Great Other is going to marshal some real world army then Stannis should actually be looking for real world allies in addition to converting to R'hllor. But she is not supporting him in that at all. In fact, Mel and Selyse really try to sell Stannis the idea that all he needs is R'hllor after he has just suffered a crushing defeat on the Blackwater. That is not going to help

As long as Mel does not specifically say what she meant by that it remains vague and can also be interpreted in the way I see it - Mel believes she is on a mission but it may not have been the right mission. In fact, she still might not be on the right mission because her narrow religious view might be the wrong way to understand and deal with the Others situation.

In my opinion, we can see Melisandre as a example how vague religious prophecies and expectations can be (re-)interpreted to fit pretty much anything. That's what's people have done with holy books for thousands of years, after all. Anyone can be a champion/soldier of the Great Other in Melisandre's mind - and it will most likely be people who she either does not understand or considers a threat to whatever she wants.

But even if you were completely right there would still be no evidence that Asshai has anything to do with Melisandre's views. It could be that whoever taught her at her Red Temple had a much more rigid view than Benerro. And who knows, perhaps said temple actually was at Asshai. There could be red priests there, too, and even if Melisandre was not originally sold to a Red Temple in Asshai she might have lived with fellow red priests at Asshai and may have become more fanatical there. We just don't know yet.