Melissandre spoilers included

[IceFire125]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

There is a quote in her POV where she says, that R'hllor gave her all the sustenance she needed, but that it was fact best kept from mortal men.  suggesting she is immortal.

Also, adding to the "immortal" subject, one of my favorite quotes from Mel and she even said it to Jon...

“Daggers in the dark. I know. You will forgive my doubts, my lady. A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from a marriage, that was what you said.”
“I was not wrong.”
“You were not right. Alys is not Arya.” 

“The vision was a true one. It was my reading that was false. I am as mortal as you, Jon Snow. All mortals err.”

A foreshadowing of Jon of not being mortal after he resurrected/reborn, thus "immortal".

 

 

[Belgarad]

10 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well, in her pov chapter in Dance she remembers being auctioned off as a slave and is called Melony, so that is likely her real name.  

I have assumed that her "Melony" memories are a remnant from the glamour spell to make her appear young.  As in her young appearance is that of a dead slave girl named Melony.  From Arya's released Winds chapter: 

Spoiler

When she is wearing another girls face she gets memories from that girls life.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, Cagey Bee said:

In this camp.. one thing though..

If Mel is as old as she is (confirmed for show.. not books) then that would mean that she, regardless of who she is, has managed to maintain a powerful form of fire magic, EVEN through the decline of Valyria and the dragons. That is huge to me. It's been pretty constantly mentioned (at least.. bookwise) that the decline of magic coincided with the decline of the dragons. Now, I am not saying that just because it was in the show it will be the same in the book, but I think that's a morsel I can chew on for a bit.

But it's not the show I'm talking about here.  Were actually not allowed to discuss it here.  GRRM said word for word to a director of the show that mel is "several hundred years old"  Carice Van Heuton the actress that played Mel said she was told 400 years, that is not cannon nor is the several hundred years, but to me out of GRRMs's mouth is as good as we will get.

[aryagonnakill#2]

11 minutes ago, Belgarad said:

I have assumed that her "Melony" memories are a remnant from the glamour spell to make her appear young.  As in her young appearance is that of a dead slave girl named Melony.  From Arya's released Winds chapter: 

  Hide contents

When she is wearing another girls face she gets memories from that girls life.

 

Not bad.  Good call.  I would personally disagree taking this as a chance of GRRM to give us info, but your certainly not wrong.

[Falcon2908]

13 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

my gut instinct as soon as she de-glamoured was to say Rhaenys Targaryen, do not know why.

then i said to myself, that would put her at over 300 years old...no way

maybe I am not that crazy after-all...

 

why the heck would she be Rhaenys. I thought the Ullers tortured her to death

[Trogdor Targaryen]

It is so hard to explain the concept of glamour to the show watchers asking me to explain. Most don't even understand when I mention Berics resurrection  it seems that he had to short of a presence in the show for most to remember his role.  

I knew about this twist due to the forums and someone directing me toward this. 

Anyway, if she is like Berics than she'd be giving up her life to bring Jon back, how devoted to the cause Jon stands for is she? 

If she's just an elderly priestess who has been preserved by her religion she can perform the kiss of life with no negative repercussions to herself.

I think it's funny that even with the stuff that's new to us, us readers have so much of a better understanding of the story that we can interpret our own spoilers better.

I told myself not to watch but I did and will. 

[Lord Eaglesteel]

4 hours ago, Belgarad said:

I have assumed that her "Melony" memories are a remnant from the glamour spell to make her appear young.  As in her young appearance is that of a dead slave girl named Melony.  From Arya's released Winds chapter: 

  Hide contents

When she is wearing another girls face she gets memories from that girls life.

 

That's a great idea. Might even be the reason why showMel deglamours: to focus on the thoughts and memories of her true self, maybe even to find answers in a dream. She may realizability her character has made too many mistakes lately and she needs to go back to her roots...

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

1 hour ago, Lord Eaglesteel said:

That's a great idea. Might even be the reason why showMel deglamours: to focus on the thoughts and memories of her true self, maybe even to find answers in a dream. She may realizability her character has made too many mistakes lately and she needs to go back to her roots...

More likely it is because she is having a crisis of faith.

[Lord Varys]

We know that taking another face is different from a glamor - in fact, that's a much stronger spell and not an illusion like a glamor is. But Mel seems to wear a powerful glamor if her ruby is any indication.

As long as we don't have an exact quote from George telling us how old Mel is there is no reason to believe she couldn't be Bloodraven's daughter by Shiera. In fact, Mel can easily be over a hundred years old if she is Bloodraven's child because Shiera might have given birth to her in 199 AC, or something like that.

The several hundred years idea is something that has been tossed around by people related to the show for quite some time. Therefore I doubt that this is essentially new information. I remember that Cunningham and van Houten talked about that in one of the audio commentaries. I seem to recall that Ran/Linda once asked Carice about that and apparently she didn't know anything about Mel's past at all (or was able to make them believe that she did not).

Considering that the show often does not get the details right there is no reason to believe that George telling the showrunners who Melisandre actually resulted in them thinking or exaggerating that she is 'several centuries old' even if she would be, in fact, only about a century old.

I'd actually be very surprised if it turned out that Mel was that old because she would then have no connection to any historical character we know, and her true identity would then just turn out to be the new back story of an essentially new character.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Also, adding to the "immortal" subject, one of my favorite quotes from Mel and she even said it to Jon...

“Daggers in the dark. I know. You will forgive my doubts, my lady. A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from a marriage, that was what you said.”
“I was not wrong.”
“You were not right. Alys is not Arya.” 

“The vision was a true one. It was my reading that was false. I am as mortal as you, Jon Snow. All mortals err.”

A foreshadowing of Jon of not being mortal after he resurrected/reborn, thus "immortal".

 

 

Melisandre may very well be mortal, but her magic has prolonged her lifespan. 

FWIW, I see her as being similar in a way to the Nazgul.  Her magic has prolonged her life, but it is gradually stripping her of her humanity, in the same way that the Rings of Power did with the Nazgul.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that taking another face is different from a glamor - in fact, that's a much stronger spell and not an illusion like a glamor is. But Mel seems to wear a powerful glamor if her ruby is any indication.

As long as we don't have an exact quote from George telling us how old Mel is there is no reason to believe she couldn't be Bloodraven's daughter by Shiera. In fact, Mel can easily be over a hundred years old if she is Bloodraven's child because Shiera might have given birth to her in 199 AC, or something like that.

The several hundred years idea is something that has been tossed around by people related to the show for quite some time. Therefore I doubt that this is essentially new information. I remember that Cunningham and van Houten talked about that in one of the audio commentaries. I seem to recall that Ran/Linda once asked Carice about that and apparently she didn't know anything about Mel's past at all (or was able to make them believe that she did not).

Considering that the show often does not get the details right there is no reason to believe that George telling the showrunners who Melisandre actually resulted in them thinking or exaggerating that she is 'several centuries old' even if she would be, in fact, only about a century old.

I'd actually be very surprised if it turned out that Mel was that old because she would then have no connection to any historical character we know, and her true identity would then just turn out to be the new back story of an essentially new character.

Lord Varys

I am intrigued by the investment in the idea that Mellisandre must be related to Shiera Seastar or Bloodraven or to any historical Westerosi character for some reason. Frankly, there is nothing in the main series that hints at any such connection, and in fact quite a bit that would argue against it.

I don't see the need for this from a plot perspective. Mellisandre seems to experience things like the Wall with awe and a sense of unfamiliarity. Her earliest memories are of slave markets in the Far East. The origin of her training appears to be Ashaii. She sees Bloodraven in a vision, and considers him as a servant of the Great Other, with no sense of familiarity, kinship or connection.

The proposed link to Shiera appears to stem from a need to have the events from the prequel novella's play a more significant role in the main series than it warrants.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Actually, this is one of the few instances in which I acknowledge the relevance of strange and fitting descriptions. Shiera and Melisandre share a heart-shaped face, something doesn't come up with any other woman that is described in the series. In addition, there is the not necessarily accidental similarities between the names Melisandre, Melony, and Melantha (Blackwood).

Melisandre is the only (seemingly) Essosi character who depicts any interest in Westeros and the people there. That makes it not unlikely she has a connection to them. The idea is not that Mel grew up in Westeros - her memories of Melony seem to suggest she was separated from her mother at a rather early age - but that she became a slave in her youth.

I don't think it makes sense to see the novellas as separate from the novels. George thinks about both of them and makes those connections. Shiera may easily have been invented to serve as a mother for Melisandre. Just as Bloodraven was invented to be the three-eyed crow, and Daemon Blackfyre to be (possibly) the ancestor of Aegon, not the other way around.

I admit, of course, that Melisandre could be somebody else, but it is not very likely that she is going to turn out to be just 'some woman'. 

[bent branch]

I don't think Melisandre should be compared to Beric. Beric is a revenant raised by Thoros. It is certain that Melisandre is the same as Thoros, Moqorro and Benerro. It has been so obvious to me for a long time that all the red priests have "the fire" inside. I think whenever the temple gets a new batch of children, they attempt to give them "the fire". Those that can accept "the fire" become priests. Those who cannot get assigned other duties.

I use the term "the fire" because I don't know what else to call it. Consider this observation from Arya (Chapter 39-ASOS), "Thoros and Lord Beric were everywhere, their swords swirling fire." This is while they are rescuing a septry in the Riverlands after the Wot5K. Where did Thoros get the fuel to set his sword on fire? For that matter, where did Thoros get the fire to revive Beric? Also from Chapter 39:

Quote

"I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and the fire is God's and God's alone.

I think the first bolded gets dismissed far to easily as simply symbolic. I think Thoros does take "the fire" into his mouth. I'm just not sure exactly what "the fire" is, but I'm certain it came from within Thoros himself. The biggest difference between Thoros and Beric is that Thoros was able to revive Beric six times without dying himself, while Beric gave the kiss of life only once and was done. I suspect that "the fire" cannot be maintained in a dead body. In other words, once the dead person has been "killed" again or they pass "the fire" on to someone else they are done. If we consider that "the fire" can be in both the quick and the dead, then it kind of becomes obvious what happened to Victarion. It seems to me that Moqorro gave Vicky "the fire" while he was still alive. This is the reason his arm smokes. This is one of the strongest clues about "the fire" inside.

The second bolded explains why someone with "the fire" within would enjoy an (sometimes greatly) extended lifespan. I have thought a lot about the significance of "the fire" within. I think the red priest are filled with "the fire" so that they can give the last kiss to newly dead individuals. I think at some point it was intended as a counter measure against the Others turning corpses into wights. If the dead are given the last kiss by the red priests they can't be raised with the ice magic that makes the wights. I think the Ironborn's religion also performs a similar function in that any Ironborn that experienced a true drowning and resuscitation cannot be hijacked by the Others ice magic. I have wondered if Coldhands was a brother from the Iron Islands. I think this is why we needed to see Aeron's POV and not some other Greyjoy's. We needed to see Aeron's obsession with drowning people and where it comes from. I think as long as people have fire or water or anything else in them they can't be turned with ice.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've long said I think Melisandre is undead, and has undergone the same ritual Thoros performs on Beric.  I seems to me that the "prayer" Thoros performs is actually a spell, and that prior to reignition of magic, it never worked. Recall, Thoros tells us he had seen it done a thousand times, but never before had it worked. He only expected to be performing a last rites ritual, but because Magic is strong once again it worked for him. We know the spell involves creating some sort of flame, breathing it in, then blowing it down the throat of the dead, at which point they rise. I think I recall that Beric says some words are involved too, which makes sense given that I think this is a spell. 

I reasoned that Mellisandre must have received the Kiss before the last time Magic ebbed away from the world. But that she hasn't experienced the multiple deaths and resurrections which have depleted Beric. I like the suggestion, that perhaps she received it without ever having actually died. 

I fully believe Mel to just be Melony, a child stolen from her family and sold to the red Temple long ago, I think the theory that she was a Temple prostitute originally makes sense. But that rather than being plot integral this is simply her character's back story. Mel is a character in her own right, she doesn't need to be someone's secret child, or a named character from further back in the world history. 

My guess is she was taken before the fall from somewhere in or around Essos, sold to the Red Temple, likely the one in Volantis, which is constructed using dragons in the Valyrian style, and we know pre doom, so old enough for her to have started out there. Where she was assigned Temple prostitute, but worked hard to study the flames and ascend to Priestess status, she joined a specific order travelled to Asshai, learnt many arts and eventually went to dragonstone to seek Azor Ahai. 

 

[King of the West]

Hey, I was the first to rub it in but she is either Shiera Seastar(for a moment it seemed her eyes were different), or she is Mad Donnelle Lothston! My theory is explained

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think you might have to expand your post a little, like, include a theory; and explain it, you know. 

[King of the West]

Magic didn't ebb away both Shiera Seastar, Bloodraven, and Mad Donnelle Lothston practiced arts & blood magic.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

nope, you are still going to have to write an actual theory out, using references and logic. Vaguery really isn't a theory. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Actually, this is one of the few instances in which I acknowledge the relevance of strange and fitting descriptions. Shiera and Melisandre share a heart-shaped face, something doesn't come up with any other woman that is described in the series.

Daena Targaryen. Jeyne Westerling.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

In addition, there is the not necessarily accidental similarities between the names Melisandre, Melony, and Melantha (Blackwood).

Melisandre is the only (seemingly) Essosi character who depicts any interest in Westeros and the people there.

Varys. Illyrio Mopatis. Thoros of Myr. Jaqen H'ghar.

 

 

[bent branch]

48 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've long said I think Melisandre is undead, and has undergone the same ritual Thoros performs on Beric.  I seems to me that the "prayer" Thoros performs is actually a spell, and that prior to reignition of magic, it never worked. Recall, Thoros tells us he had seen it done a thousand times, but never before had it worked. He only expected to be performing a last rites ritual, but because Magic is strong once again it worked for him. We know the spell involves creating some sort of flame, breathing it in, then blowing it down the throat of the dead, at which point they rise. I think I recall that Beric says some words are involved too, which makes sense given that I think this is a spell. 

I reasoned that Mellisandre must have received the Kiss before the last time Magic ebbed away from the world. But that she hasn't experienced the multiple deaths and resurrections which have depleted Beric. I like the suggestion, that perhaps she received it without ever having actually died. 

I fully believe Mel to just be Melony, a child stolen from her family and sold to the red Temple long ago, I think the theory that she was a Temple prostitute originally makes sense. But that rather than being plot integral this is simply her character's back story. Mel is a character in her own right, she doesn't need to be someone's secret child, or a named character from further back in the world history. 

My guess is she was taken before the fall from somewhere in or around Essos, sold to the Red Temple, likely the one in Volantis, which is constructed using dragons in the Valyrian style, and we know pre doom, so old enough for her to have started out there. Where she was assigned Temple prostitute, but worked hard to study the flames and ascend to Priestess status, she joined a specific order travelled to Asshai, learnt many arts and eventually went to dragonstone to seek Azor Ahai. 

 

The problem I have with this is that Thoros' back story disproves the idea that red priests have to "earn" the position of priest. Thoros would have been much happier as a temple guard. His penchant for drinking and fighting would have been acceptable then. But despite the fact that Thoros never even tried to be a good priest, he was still a priest. He couldn't get kicked out as a priest. This indicates that red priests are chosen for a trait that they share, not how hard they work for it. I believe this trait is that they can receive the fire while still alive. I consider this passage is a description of when Melisandre (Melony) received "the fire" (ADWD - Chapter 31):

Quote

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

The bolded is what clinches it for me.