Melissandre spoilers included

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@SeanF

There is actually no hint that magic in general waxes and wanes. We have no reason to believe the Faceless Men, the Others, the Children of the Forest, the Green Men, or the Lhazareen godswives had any trouble working magic.

What's confirmed is that fire magic and spells based on fire grew much more powerful both in Qarth and in KL after the return of the dragons. That's really all. How things stand in Asshai we really don't know. And, of course, even fire magic was never completely gone or dead. It was just much weaker than in the dragon days.

I think we are shown that it's more than just fire magic that is on the increase.  Something has brought direwolves south of the wall and woken a warging ability in the Stark children. Something has brought back The Others.  You could argue that The Others were always there north of the wall, but this is different and its's threatening enough for Mance to unite all the wildlings tribes to get beyond the wall or die.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/25/2016 at 11:29 AM, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

Did the "several centuries" come straight from GRRM or second-hand from the actress who plays her?  It could be she was told that she was "very old, well over a hundred years" and in an interview she either misunderstood or exaggerated for effect to say she was several centuries old.

This is the problem with most second-hand SSMS and eve a few first-hand SSMs. 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

If B+S=M were true, would D&D make it so in the Tv show?

The audience doesn´t even know who Bloodraven is, much less Shiera Seastar.

they have enough trouble with R+L=J

 

Some theories can be "confirmed" by the TV show. others are just impossible to adapt.

[BalerionTheCat]

She said she "had practiced her art for years beyond count". Which is strange for someone who is not, apparently, very old. I could understand this from very old people, like Maester Aemon, but less from someone in her forties, maybe less. I was not really believing that, but why not.

It would raise the question of other red priests status. Particularly Moqorro or Benerro, who are either higher in the Order, or more gifted.

IF she is that old, there could be no trace of her in History. But I feel it would me more logical if she had left some trace in the past. One possibility is she would be Shiera Seastar's mother. Supposing she didn't die giving birth. Something unfortunate for near immortal women, quite skilled in making babies. Or Serenei, Shiera and Melisandre are the same person, birthing a new body when the previous one is too old.

[The Dames do Moan]

55 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

If B+S=M were true, would D&D make it so in the Tv show?

The audience doesn´t even know who Bloodraven is, much less Shiera Seastar.

they have enough trouble with R+L=J

 

Some theories can be "confirmed" by the TV show. others are just impossible to adapt.

I agree, I think we'll have trouble even "confirming" any theories as well cause of course there's always the argument that D&D changed it for folks who don't like or agree with what's shown.

I mean, like the OP comments, if D&D saying outright GRRM told us this isn't "confirming" then literally nothing will be that happens in the show.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I think we are shown that it's more than just fire magic that is on the increase.  Something has brought direwolves south of the wall and woken a warging ability in the Stark children. Something has brought back The Others.  You could argue that The Others were always there north of the wall, but this is different and its's threatening enough for Mance to unite all the wildlings tribes to get beyond the wall or die.  

Well, there is actually no hint that the ice magic of the Others has only come back recently (and if it did we would have to believe it was away for millennia), all we can say is that the Others have began to attack humanity only in the recent years. That's a difference.

The direwolf-stag sign most likely was actually orchestrated by Bloodraven. He could have controlled both the direwolf and the stag to create a 'divine sign' to warn Eddard Stark that he should stay away from Robert's court.

He could have been similarly involved in the awakening of the Stark skinchanger abilities although that's not really necessary. The intimate contact of the children with the direwolf pups might have a similar effect. But Bloodraven was clearly involved in opening Bran's third eye and unleashing his potential as a powerful greenseer.

[Blade of Sunlight]

On 27/04/2016 at 8:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

(...) Jon Snow could actually strengthened and not weakened by a resurrection the R'hllorian way. (...)

It's a really well thought out theory, .

Regarding the quoted part, if this was true then one would asume Valyrians would kill themselves constantly in order to be resurrected.

If Berric's tenuous connection to the Targ bloodline is sufficient then many more would be connected to the blood of the dragon in both Westeros and Essos, and it would stand to reason at least some people would have been resurrected in Lys and elsewhere, (which would have been pretty big news).

That being said, it is also possible that this magic only applies to the descendant's of Dragonlords and beyond the Targs we are not told of any mixing of their blood, which would exclude most people of Valyrian decent, which would still raise the question of how exactly is Dragonlord blood different from Valyrian blood, as we see that not all Dragonlord children are made to have dragons, some do and some don't (the Dragonseeds during the Dance).

[Lord Varys]

@Blade of Sunlight

Well, it is just a theory to be tossed around but it is a much better explanation than 'R'hllor works in mysterious ways' or 'Thoros has special powers despite the fact that he was explicitly established as an average guy with no special powers'.

Perhaps one could assume that in light of the fact that all the other dragons of the Valyrian dragonlords aside from the Targaryen dragons died in the Doom only Targaryen descendants now profit from those ancient fire magic resurrection spells that have begun to work again after Daenerys Targaryen brought the Targaryen dragons back. The consensus mostly is that the eggs Illyrio gave her were actually eggs from Targaryen dragons - more precisely the ones Aerys II discovered on Dragonstone during the late years of his reign who were also described as 'petrified' by Yandel.

But as I've said earlier in Volantis the Old Blood apparently doesn't follow R'hllor and in Lys other gods seem to be more prominent than R'hllor, too.

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

It's a really well thought out theory, .

"Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born". It should mean Jon will return, stronger. There would not be much point killing him otherwise.

It was also my very first idea, when reading the book the first time, that it was to free him of his vows: "It shall not end until my death". I must say I hate these vows each time someone says: "He can't do that because of his vows". I know, some argue: "once alive the vows resume". But my preferred scenario would be: Jon is put on a pyre, the brothers, the ones remaining faithful to him, have their chant: "and now his watch is ended". And then the fire resurrects Jon. One red witch on the pyre with Jon would be a bonus. But maybe it's asking too much.

"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." It belongs to the Geyjoys, but I don't see why it should be reserved to them.

[Cagey Bee]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 4:40 AM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

This is exactly what I was thinking too.  How has she kept this going with the total decline in magic of the last 150ish years? 

I think it may be something to do with Asshai and the shadowlands.  In my mind, the shadowlands are the fire magic equivalent of the heart of winter.  If Mel was living in Asshai for the last 150+ years then her magic may still have endured.  

Yea, I propose (I say I, I stole the theory) that the Shadowlands are what's left of the old "Heart of Summer". That being said, her exposure to the area would be MY guess as to why she remained able to do magic. Still, someone did bring up the Bloodraven and Shiera bit, which is a bit harder to explain. Couple that with Prince Daeron and Daemon II's dragon dreams, there IS magic going on in Westeros after the dragons disappear.. but it seems to be more low key. The thing about Bloodraven, though.. he has First Men blood, and I propose that his mixed blood has a significance there. Shiera, though... her mother was from Lys... old Valyrian at best... In any case, blood has power, and blood has been used for magic (Shiera). It gets convoluted here.. I don't think fire is the source of fire magic.. I think it's blood. The point here being.. fire magic seemed to have disappeared with the dragons.. but blood magic did not. I think that fire magic is a type of blood magic (blood magic probably being the "base magic" that all other magic builds upon), but that fire's potency is tied to a balance of fire/ice. So.. without getting to long into it (too late, probably), I think that blood magic still was possible, but that most magic used by the Targs and theirs would be fire magic. That is what would make Bloodraven and Shiera special, they practiced blood magic, not fire magic...

 

Furthermore.. blood magic does not seem to need fire to be done. The Children of the Forest used substantial blood magic in their stories (The breaking of the Arm of Dorne and the flooding of the Neck were both brought on supposedly by great sacrifice) but they don't seem to use fire magic much. The book is pretty unclear if Leaf used magic (like in the show), or a torch in Dance (it only said that "she" had a torch in her hand). The Children didn't like fire due to its consuming nature, they remembered how the First Men burnt the weirwoods.. but they do seem to LOVE blood magic.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If Melisandre is more than 400 years old, then it's likely she was alive when Valyria was still around. There might be a chance she was a slave of the dragonlords or, she was a Valyrian girl who was sold away after she escaped the Doom somehow. If the people who bought her knew about her Valyrian origin, is possible they tried to experiment with her "dragon" blood, which she might have not necessarily had, and that's why she's now pretty much fire made flesh.

[3legImp]

On April 25, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Durran Durrandon said:

As one who has said she is like Beric, loudly and frequently, I'll say that viewing either of them as dead is over simplification. They are transformed by fire and living past their natural lifespan. The path they took to get there may not be that important. It's all R'hllor magic.They both have black smoking blood. Neither eat, neither sleep.

That was actually the creepiest thing about the scene for me. She lies down and goes to sleep. For Mel, that is like surrendering to the Great Other.

I think show runners didn't think that all the way through (like many many other things eg. completely extinguishing martells and baratheons).  I have grown so unconfident in the show that I don't know what to actually take as story telling and what is just lazy bs scene writing. 

[BalerionTheCat]

I'm not sure I should take for granted what D&D and van Houten said. I didn't believe this fan speculation before. Both because it was not providing an obvious improvement to the story telling. It would be just a gratuitous usage of the magical thing. And also, because Melisandre is not looking like someone with immense wisdom and experience. Even blind men like maester Aemon had doubts about Stannis is AAR. And honestly, reaching this conclusion is not difficult, even without knowledge of R+L=J. OK, interpreting R'hllor's visions is not supposed to be easy. But everyone a little bit scholar is saying visions and prophecies are often tricky and interpretation is not straightforward. So Melisandre is hundreds of years old: why not. But IMO, great age is not in line with Melisandre lack of experience and wisdom. We are not supposed to deal here with an average quidam.

[shk12344]

13 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

If Melisandre is more than 400 years old, then it's likely she was alive when Valyria was still around. There might be a chance she was a slave of the dragonlords or, she was a Valyrian girl who was sold away after she escaped the Doom somehow. If the people who bought her knew about her Valyrian origin, is possible they tried to experiment with her "dragon" blood, which she might have not necessarily had, and that's why she's now pretty much fire made flesh.

Along with confirmed statement that Mel was "several centuries old" with 400 years bandied around by Mel actress and the director, there has been unconfirmed rumor she is the last survivor (slave girl) from Valyria.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

45 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm not sure I should take for granted what D&D and van Houten said.

But they said Martin told them. In fact, IICR, few people were mad at the featurette because they are, again, spoiling the books. I mean, one thing is to put Mel being old and the audience still is wondering whether this is added by D&d, that they decided to include a popular theory, or if indeed GRRM told them so. There is no ambiguity here, just like how it happened with Shireen's death: they pretty much said "Yes, Martin told us this". So, there is no real doubt. The only things left to wonder is what made Melisandre live so much, how and why.

4 minutes ago, shk12344 said:

Along with confirmed statement that Mel was "several centuries old" with 400 years bandied around by Mel actress and the director, there has been unconfirmed rumor she is the last survivor (slave girl) from Valyria.

 

That I hadn't heard, where is it from?

[shk12344]

23 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

That I hadn't heard, where is it from?

There was never link or actual statement confirming Mel as the  last survivor. It's an unconfirmed internet rumor where someone supposedly said it but actual link was never provided.

 

As for what D&D says about the characters. If they misquoted GRRM then I'm sure George would have gone on record to correct them. So far he hasn't done that . There is no reason to believe D&D are wrong.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, shk12344 said:

There was never link or actual statement confirming Mel as the  last survivor. It's anunconfirmed internet rumor where someone supposedly said it but actual link was never provided.

 

 

Ah, thanks. I still think it sounds logical if she's indeed 400yo. If so, I'm sure she HAS some link to Valyria.

[239JMFL34109]

400 years is a very specific age to throw around when they could just be saying old. it also would put her around the age to have seen the fall of valyria. Maybe this is the character whose point of view we get when we see valyrian in the past like GRRM mentioned once. 

I think the shadow binding and burning people don't have anything to do with one another. quathie was also a shadow binder but she doesn't seem to follow the same religion. I think she has been using the sacrifices  to keep herself alive. I am not sure if she really believes in stannis or is just trying to make the prophecy come true with stannis.  

1 hour ago, shk12344 said:

Along with confirmed statement that Mel was "several centuries old" with 400 years bandied around by Mel actress and the director, there has been unconfirmed rumor she is the last survivor (slave girl) from Valyria.

 

there was also the guy who played the maester in season one he said the same age in an interview years ago.

[pigpiginsunspear]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

But they said Martin told them. In fact, IICR, few people were mad at the featurette because they are, again, spoiling the books. I mean, one thing is to put Mel being old and the audience still is wondering whether this is added by D&d, that they decided to include a popular theory, or if indeed GRRM told them so. There is no ambiguity here, just like how it happened with Shireen's death: they pretty much said "Yes, Martin told us this". So, there is no real doubt. The only things left to wonder is what made Melisandre live so much, how and why.

That I hadn't heard, where is it from?

 Wait a minute- Shireen being burned is confirmed?? Do you have a source on this? Haha unsure how I missed that.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

But they said Martin told them. In fact, IICR, few people were mad at the featurette because they are, again, spoiling the books. I mean, one thing is to put Mel being old and the audience still is wondering whether this is added by D&d, that they decided to include a popular theory, or if indeed GRRM told them so. There is no ambiguity here, just like how it happened with Shireen's death: they pretty much said "Yes, Martin told us this". So, there is no real doubt. The only things left to wonder is what made Melisandre live so much, how and why.

I know, but strangely, I lost any faith in D&D telling it true. Not that I'm saying they are always lying. Just that I have no more faith in what they say than in any fan inventing a theory without a clear benefit for the whole story. Unless GRRM himself says it publicly and without ambiguity, I will keep Melisandre's age a speculation. Ok, I will more likely suppose she is older than she look. But I will keep the other option open. Anyway, for now, I don't see what her age changes. She can either know, or not know, how to resurrect Jon, whether she is old or not. We don't know what GRRM told D&D, and what D&D and anyone else invented because it was cool. Maybe he told them she alter her appearance to look younger. And then they invented the rest.

And GRRM would likely say nothing. If he had to debunk all false rumours, soon only the truth would remain.