Trial by Seven: 7 v 1?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Typical bully: acts all tough when he's holding all the cards, but take away his support and introduce the possibility that he might actually get hurt and he goes weak at the knees. Viserys is a good example.

I agree he's a bully, and as such, he picks on the weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's afraid of the strong. In the trial by seven he charged head on at Dunk with a war lance. He evaluation yielded but only after Dunk had disarmed and beaten him. He's a bully, but he's not Viserys. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aerion demanded a trial by seven because he knew no one would join Dunk's side. I mean, that's kind of the point of those things, that the Gods decide what happens. If no one fights on your behalf, is because the Gods believe you're guilty. If you then fight for yourself, you lose because the Gods said so.

In Cersei's case, I doubt that she would be allowed to fight with only one knight. The trial has to be "fair" (1v1) at the eyes of the Gods, and she's short of several KG.

 

On 27/4/2016 at 4:05 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

One of the charges that will be defended by Cersei's trial is that her children were bastards born of incest...

Cersei I, Dance

If Cersei loses her trial, Tommen will lose his crown and Stannis will be seen as Robert's true heir. The Faith would have to fight his claim, much like Aeron is fighting Euron and the Church fought Henry VIII & Elizabeth I.

So, if the Faith throws anyone against Robert Strong, he will be a sacrifice, since the Faith does not want to win. Poor Lancel...

Even if Cersei loses her trial, the Faith won't crown Stannis and it's not at all convenient for them. Remember that the Faith has also imprisoned Marg, and KL is kinda mad at them for this. If Cersei loses the trial, the people will believe the Gods want Stannis as King, even with his Red God.

I agree with you. Lancel will be the sacrificial lamb on this thing. They never wanted to "remove" Cersei, only put her down and control her.

[chrisdaw]

They don't want anything. It's one man and he's a true believer, he wants only what the gods will, and he's not second guessing them, he's not cheating or arranging anything with any particular desirable result, all he is doing is trying to determine what it is the gods will.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Well, if Cersie ends up in a trial of seven she always has the ability tu summon the KG, or dismiss and appoint new members as precedent has been set, she is also only queen dowager, which may mean she can be defended by people other than the kingsguard. Either way she forcibly has 7 champions as there ara 7 members of the KG, so it would theoretically prevent her from losing by "lack of people", it would however force the trial to be postponed until her champions should arrive.

[Maester of Valyria]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree he's a bully, and as such, he picks on the weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's afraid of the strong. In the trial by seven he charged head on at Dunk with a war lance. He evaluation yielded but only after Dunk had disarmed and beaten him. He's a bully, but he's not Viserys. 

I think the implication is that he's wary of Dunk after he got beaten by him, but during the heat of the trial he forgot his fears and went into a bit of a rage-fuelled beserker mode. He's also not stupid: he knew that he could easily defeat Dunk in 'knightly' combat, but he probably knew that Dunk was physically stronger than him.

[BalerionTheCat]

I'm wondering if the High Septon is as big a fool as to believe the faith of his champion will prevail against Robert Strong. The faith display is for the public. I do not doubt he believes in the Seven. But he must know the strength of arms wins most often. But who has any chance against Robert? He has no one to oppose, except maybe Sandor. And that seems not likely.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

They don't want anything. It's one man and he's a true believer, he wants only what the gods will, and he's not second guessing them, he's not cheating or arranging anything with any particular desirable result, all he is doing is trying to determine what it is the gods will.

But the gods will that the Faith of the Seven remains the dominant religion of the Seven Kingdoms. The gods will that the sacred orders of the Faith Militant be restored and strengthened. And the gods will that the Faith is led by its most sincere and humble servant, the current High Septon. "The High Septon speaks for the Seven here on earth."

[Tom Cruise]

On April 29, 2016 at 9:53 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aerion was a whacko, but cowardly? 

He would only ever challenge opponents he knew to be weak during the tourney... so ya I think cowardly is a good description.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

He would only ever challenge opponents he knew to be weak during the tourney... so ya I think cowardly is a good description.

Didn't he join the Second Sons, when coulda hung out banging bed slaves in Lys? I know there are no old, bold sellswords, but it would take a certain amount of courage to ride with mercenaries, no? 

[Tom Cruise]

I always thought of Aerion as being a lot like Viserys...  but that's just the way I read it.  He didn't seem to have much 'courage' from any POV scene we've seen.  He would make a point of challenging older or injured people during the joust.  Considering the reputation of most sell swords I wouldn't say being couragous is a prerequisite. 

[Maester of Valyria]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Didn't he join the Second Sons, when coulda hung out banging bed slaves in Lys? I know there are no old, bold sellswords, but it would take a certain amount of courage to ride with mercenaries, no? 

Just make sure you're at the back of the army when it fights, and have a fast horse and a few paid bodyguards. That way you can fool yourself into thinking you're a great warrior.

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 hours ago, Tom Cruise said:

I always thought of Aerion as being a lot like Viserys...  but that's just the way I read it.  He didn't seem to have much 'courage' from any POV scene we've seen.  He would make a point of challenging older or injured people during the joust.  Considering the reputation of most sell swords I wouldn't say being couragous is a prerequisite. 

I think you might be confusing with Vaylarr a bit. He's the one who kept jousting weaker opponents. Aerion only jousted once. I'll concede though that the way he slew Hardyng's horse was cowardly. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Just make sure you're at the back of the army when it fights, and have a fast horse and a few paid bodyguards. That way you can fool yourself into thinking you're a great warrior.

Have you ever been at the back, front or center? It takes a bit of balls just to lift your head when the shit starts flying and the men on the other side want to kill you for real. 

Of course some men join but can't handle fighting, real fighting--killing and dying, so hopefully we'll learn about Aerion's experiences. I get the impression that Aerion is sadistic, but you might be right. 

[Maester of Valyria]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think you might be confusing with Vaylarr a bit. He's the one who kept jousting weaker opponents. Aerion only jousted once. I'll concede though that the way he slew Hardyng's horse was cowardly. 

Vaylarr was only picked by the weaker opponents; the truly dangerous ones just passed him by so they would not shame a prince of the blood. IIRC, Vaylarr seemed a bit depressed by this state of affairs.

 

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Have you ever been at the back, front or center? It takes a bit of balls just to lift your head when the shit starts flying and the men on the other side want to kill you for real. 

Of course some men join but can't handle fighting, real fighting--killing and dying, so hopefully we'll learn about Aerion's experiences. I get the impression that Aerion is sadistic, but you might be right. 

No, I (like the vast majority of people on this forum) have never been in a real battle

I never said that Aerion couldn't handle killing etc, and it's entirely possible that he doesn't feel fear when in a battle and that he goes into a beserker rage (that would fit well with his madness). However, take away the thrill of proper battle and replace it with the knowledge that you're one of only seven people on your side, and that the man you most want to kill is physically much stronger than you (having already knocked your teeth out) and I'd imagine Aerion would be more than a bit apprehensive.

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Vaylarr was only picked by the weaker opponents; the truly dangerous ones just passed him by so they would not shame a prince of the blood. IIRC, Vaylarr seemed a bit depressed by this state of affairs.

 

No, I (like the vast majority of people on this forum) have never been in a real battle

I never said that Aerion couldn't handle killing etc, and it's entirely possible that he doesn't feel fear when in a battle and that he goes into a beserker rage (that would fit well with his madness). However, take away the thrill of proper battle and replace it with the knowledge that you're one of only seven people on your side, and that the man you most want to kill is physically much stronger than you (having already knocked your teeth out) and I'd imagine Aerion would be more than a bit apprehensive.

I am really looking forward to the development of Aerion's character, and to the history of his son Maegor. Like  I suggested, I would not be surprised if your belief about Aerion being a coward is born out. 

I suspect Gerold Dayne might be his descendant. 

[Maester of Valyria]

21 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am really looking forward to the development of Aerion's character, and to the history of his son Maegor. Like  I suggested, I would not be surprised if your belief about Aerion being a coward is born out. 

I suspect Gerold Dayne might be his descendant. 

Aren't we all...although I really want Winds before any more Dunk & Eggs!

An interesting theory, although secret lineage theories aren't really my speciality. Perhaps it will be borne out, although I never really got why people were so obsessed with 'Secret Brightflame' theories.

[Lost Melnibonean]

58 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Aren't we all...although I really want Winds before any more Dunk & Eggs!

An interesting theory, although secret lineage theories aren't really my speciality. Perhaps it will be borne out, although I never really got why people were so obsessed with 'Secret Brightflame' theories.

Aerion was introduced in The Hedge Knight two years after A Game of Thrones was published, and just three months before A Clash of Kings was published. Then, in Clash, Jeor and Jon told us what what happened with the Targaryens in The Hedge Knight...

Quote

 

"Blind he may be, but Aemon knows what he's about. I pray the gods let us keep him another twenty years. Do you know that he might have been king?"

Jon was taken by surprise. "He told me his father was king, but not . . . I thought him perhaps a younger son."

"So he was. His father's father was Daeron Targaryen, the Second of His Name, who brought Dorne into the realm. Part of the pact was that he wed a Dornish princess. She gave him four sons. Aemon's father Maekar was the youngest of those, and Aemon was his third son. Mind you, all this happened long before I was born, ancient as Smallwood would make me."

"Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight."

"So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy. Be that as it may, our Aemon lacked the Dragonknight's martial nature. He likes to say he had a slow sword but quick wits. Small wonder his grandfather packed him off to the Citadel. He was nine or ten, I believe . . . and ninth or tenth in the line of succession as well."

Maester Aemon had counted more than a hundred name days, Jon knew. Frail, shrunken, wizened, and blind, it was hard to imagine him as a little boy no older than Arya.

Mormont continued. "Aemon was at his books when the eldest of his uncles, the heir apparent, was slain in a tourney mishap. He left two sons, but they followed him to the grave not long after, during the Great Spring Sickness. King Daeron was also taken, so the crown passed to Daeron's second son, Aerys."

"The Mad King?" Jon was confused. Aerys had been king before Robert, that wasn't so long ago.

"No, this was Aerys the First. The one Robert deposed was the second of that name."

"How long ago was this?"

"Eighty years or close enough," the Old Bear said, "and no, I still hadn't been born, though Aemon had forged half a dozen links of his maester's chain by then. Aerys wed his own sister, as the Targaryens were wont to do, and reigned for ten or twelve years. Aemon took his vows and left the Citadel to serve at some lordling's court . . . until his royal uncle died without issue. The Iron Throne passed to the last of King Daeron's four sons. That was Maekar, Aemon's father. The new king summoned all his sons to court and would have made Aemon part of his councils, but he refused, saying that would usurp the place rightly belonging to the Grand Maester. Instead he served at the keep of his eldest brother, another Daeron. Well, that one died too, leaving only a feeble-witted daughter as heir. Some pox he caught from a whore, I believe. The next brother was Aerion."

"Aerion the Monstrous?" Jon knew that name. "The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon" was one of Old Nan's more gruesome tales. His little brother Bran had loved it.

"The very one, though he named himself Aerion Brightflame. One night, in his cups, he drank a jar of wildfire, after telling his friends it would transform him into a dragon, but the gods were kind and it transformed him into a corpse. Not quite a year after, King Maekar died in battle against an outlaw lord."

Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own maester had seen to that. "That was the year of the Great Council," he said. "The lords passed over Prince Aerion's infant son and Prince Daeron's daughter and gave the crown to Aegon."

"Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother's rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother's son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings."

 

Jon I, Clash 6

As Game, Clash, and then Storm unfolded, it seemed very likely that Illyrio and Varys were working to install a claimant other than Viserys and Daenerys on the Iron Throne, but we could only guess at who that other claimant might be.

Based on what we knew at the end of Storm, that claimant was likely be Rhaegar's son Aegon, or perhaps an imposter posing as Rhaegar's son.

Given that Aerion was introduced as the antagonist in The Hedge Knight, which was published before Clash, the next most likely possibility (at the end of Storm) was a descendant of Aerion's son. A descendant of Rhaenrya Targaryen was another possibility, but she was only mentioned once. Catelyn had told us that the Blackfyre "pretenders" troubled the Targaryens for five generations, but she also suggested they were wiped out a generation or two earlier. So, a descendant of Aerion was the best bet at the end of Storm. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

I definitely think Lancel will fight, but I also think there maybe multiple fights.  Even though Aerion was able to demand a trial by 7 to avoid a 1vs1 situation with Dunk, he still had to fight in it and it was his accusation against Dunk that matter(Dunk got him to recant in front of the judges to end the fight).  Therefore it is my belief that all of Cersei's direct accusers will have to fight.  That means Lancel, and Kettleblack, if not more.

[dsug]

Maybe, instead of a straight up 7v1 fucking melee, it will be like a gauntlet of seven 1v1 fights, with each round being for one of the gods. 

[Maester of Valyria]

22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aerion was introduced in The Hedge Knight two years after A Game of Thrones was published, and just three months before A Clash of Kings was published. Then, in Clash, Jeor and Jon told us what what happened with the Targaryens in The Hedge Knight...

Jon I, Clash 6

As Game, Clash, and then Storm unfolded, it seemed very likely that Illyrio and Varys were working to install a claimant other than Viserys and Daenerys on the Iron Throne, but we could only guess at who that other claimant might be.

Based on what we knew at the end of Storm, that claimant was likely be Rhaegar's son Aegon, or perhaps an imposter posing as Rhaegar's son.

Given that Aerion was introduced as the antagonist in The Hedge Knight, which was published before Clash, the next most likely possibility (at the end of Storm) was a descendant of Aerion's son. A descendant of Rhaenrya Targaryen was another possibility, but she was only mentioned once. Catelyn had told us that the Blackfyre "pretenders" troubled the Targaryens for five generations, but she also suggested they were wiped out a generation or two earlier. So, a descendant of Aerion was the best bet at the end of Storm. 

Ah, thanks, that clears it up a bit! But as I said: not really my thing to be honest!