Fantasy series that are both character-driven and with great worldbuilding

[TrackerNeil]

11 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Also, while I agree with the earlier posts about Janny Wurts as a stand-alone writer not always being interesting to me, her collaboration with Raymond E. Feist produced the truly good Empire Trilogy, set in a feudal Korea or Japan.  Their collaboration is, in my mind, the best work either of them ever has done.  The characters are sharp, their motivations well-constructed, and the world is elegantly described and inhabited.  Furthermore, the books are well ahead of their time in terms of the treatment of women and foreigners.  Once again, magic exists in the world of the books, but is not a main driver of the plot.

Oh goodness...I couldn't disagree more. It's a different sort of fantasy world, in a way, but the non-Mara characters aren't fleshed out very well, even Mara becomes a Mary Sue after awhile. Argh.

[brunhilda]

On 5/14/2016 at 11:41 AM, Jiriki said:

People have recommended Janny Wurts, but I could never get through any of her books. Nor did I find them to be great worldbuilding.

Jordan's Wheel of Time has great worldbuilding, but I found most of the characters annoying as hell. Definitely Nynaeve and Egwene. But later even Mat and Perrin and Fail and Min and all the Aes Sedai characters. And almost everyone else. Most of the characters eventually just seemed to merge into one very annoying character. No idea how or why that happened.

Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarion series is well-written, and has decent world-building. I don't remember all the details, now, but I'm difficult to please, and was pleased by this series.

Given that I agree with you across the board on these, recommend me some books!

As for those who asked about Rothfuss, he does neither character nor worldbuilding but something distinct: a tapestry of story that is tied together on many levels and the great fun of the series (which will probably never be finished) is to find the connections and analyze the hell out of what's really going on. There's a huge series of dissection posts on Tor's site.

Dagger and the Coin has some of the best worldbuilding/character balance of just about any recent series. It is imperfect but it's a home-run in pushing that mixture.

Sanderson also does solid character/worldbuilding but the problem is that he takes a very long time to hit his stride in each series. Stormlight is head and shoulders above Mistborn and that above his older works. Reckoners is surprisingly good but its "superhero" premise may be a turn-off for some readers expecting fantasy. His characters can also be a little dense.

The Hum and the Shiver did a good job at its task but I found the book pretentious and not especially enjoyable. Last Call and American Gods both delivered much better reads as modern fantasy with coherent worldbuilding and great characters, but for people looking for "fantasy series" even if these technically qualify (AG with the related Anansi Boys), they may not be what people imagine when they ask for "fantasy series".

If you're going to read Pratchett, skip to Mort or Night Watch. You'll either love him or not at that point. As a rule, anything later is better than his earlier stuff.

Finally, if you're willing to ditch the "series" and go for a one-off, you can do worse than City of Bones --  no, not that one, the one by Martha Wells -- and Wind Child by Rebecca Meluch.

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, brunhilda said:

If you're going to read Pratchett, skip to Mort or Night Watch. You'll either love him or not at that point. As a rule, anything later is better than his earlier stuff

Starting with Mort is fine, but I'd advise against starting with Night Watch - too many references to setting and characters from earlier books. Guards! Guards! or Small Gods are a better bet.

[Jiriki]

On 5/22/2016 at 9:30 PM, brunhilda said:

Given that I agree with you across the board on these, recommend me some books!

As for those who asked about Rothfuss, he does neither character nor worldbuilding but something distinct: a tapestry of story that is tied together on many levels and the great fun of the series (which will probably never be finished) is to find the connections and analyze the hell out of what's really going on. There's a huge series of dissection posts on Tor's site.

Dagger and the Coin has some of the best worldbuilding/character balance of just about any recent series. It is imperfect but it's a home-run in pushing that mixture.

Sanderson also does solid character/worldbuilding but the problem is that he takes a very long time to hit his stride in each series. Stormlight is head and shoulders above Mistborn and that above his older works. Reckoners is surprisingly good but its "superhero" premise may be a turn-off for some readers expecting fantasy. His characters can also be a little dense.

The Hum and the Shiver did a good job at its task but I found the book pretentious and not especially enjoyable. Last Call and American Gods both delivered much better reads as modern fantasy with coherent worldbuilding and great characters, but for people looking for "fantasy series" even if these technically qualify (AG with the related Anansi Boys), they may not be what people imagine when they ask for "fantasy series".

If you're going to read Pratchett, skip to Mort or Night Watch. You'll either love him or not at that point. As a rule, anything later is better than his earlier stuff.

Finally, if you're willing to ditch the "series" and go for a one-off, you can't do worse than City of Bones --  no, not that one, the one by Martha Wells -- and Wind Child by Rebecca Meluch.

Hey Brunhilda! Welcome to Westeros!

Thanks for the recommendations.

Here are my own recommendations. I already mentioned Elizabeth Moon's "Paksenarion" series. I'd add both Robin Hobb's "Rain Winds" and "Tawny Man" series, Sarah Ash's "Tears of Artamon" series, and less world-buildy, but still worthy, single-volume "Illusion" by Paula Volsky, and Joan Vinge's Snow Queen/Summer Queen books.

For deep world-building, Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" series, and the upcoming sequels, two of which I've happily previewed. Less world-building occurs in King's "Dark Tower" series, but volumes 3 through 5 are still quite good. Anne McCaffrey's Pern series is good (or at least the first four or five books; after that, it's repetitive). Mervyn Peake is great, but not for everyone. In the distant past, I loved a lot of Orson Scott Card and Mercedes Lackey books.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jo498]

On 22.5.2016 at 7:36 AM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Starting with Mort is fine, but I'd advise against starting with Night Watch - too many references to setting and characters from earlier books. Guards! Guards! or Small Gods are a better bet.

Yes. Night Watch would be almost impossible to appreciate without at least Guards! Guards!, better more or most of the "Watch" books (I found it somewhat underwhelming compared to the high praise it always gets and one reason might have been that I read only two earlier Watch books and partly forgotten them).

Having (re-)read a bunch of the earliest discworld books recently I don't think the first three are bad at all and they have the advantage that no knowledge from other books is expected so there is nothing wrong in starting at the beginning. Although admittedly "characters" are not as strongly developed and the "world-building" relies even more on making fun of fantasy tropes but later on the discworld series mainly relies on making fun of certain cultural or social conditions of the modern world, so I am not quite sure if Pratchett is the first recommendation for either "character-driven" and great worldbuilding/immersion. The main attractions of most of the books lie elsewhere, I believe.

The stand-alone quality is true of "Small Gods" (this also seems to take place several hundred years before the Ankh-Morpork/Watch etc. storylines) and it is possible to start with that one. The minor drawback is that this is one of the very best ones and the reader might be disappointed by other books having started with the best.

[TrackerNeil]

On 4/29/2016 at 5:41 PM, williamjm said:

I think Abraham's books have an adequate amount of world-building but I agree there's a lack of depth to it. The Dagger and the Coin world doesn't have the same sense of there being a detailed history behind it as ASOIAF does, and the Thirteen Races of humanity often feel a bit irrelevant to the plot. I don't think that necessarily detracts from the series because I think it's more focused on characters and ideas.

The world of The Dagger and the Coin feels oddly empty, as if the only people who are doing anything of consequence are the main characters. GRRM's Westeros feels much more like a real place, in which there are all kinds of factions and power players, each pushing this way or that. 

[Wilbur]

3 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

The world of The Dagger and the Coin feels oddly empty, as if the only people who are doing anything of consequence are the main characters. GRRM's Westeros feels much more like a real place, in which there are all kinds of factions and power players, each pushing this way or that. 

That is my experience as well.

[Happy Ent]

Pilusmagnus, since you’re not a hardened Fantasy aficionado anyway, let me recommend The Expanse by J.A. Corey. This is science fiction, but otherwise seems to fit your taste. (I generally fail at liking science fiction, despite many attempts over decades. But I really like The Expanse.) 

Incidentally, the books are written by two authors under a joint pseudonym, one of them being D. Abraham (who has been recommended several times upthread already.) The other author is GRRM’s assistant.

The books are extremely character-driven (in the sense that events would not come to pass were it not for the psychological make-up of the main characters), have very likeable characters, and a very immersive universe. (Near future, solar system partly colonised, no AI, no faster-than-light travel.) Tech feels like the first two Alien films. World-building (as opposed to immersion) is fine. Not much depth, great fun, exciting. And it’s currently being written, published reliably, and there’s also a TV show as far as I know. (I watch neither that nor GoT, for that matter.)

Oh, and for the record: Bakker’s shit blows my mind.

[Hereward]

I enjoy The Expanse, but I can't agree on likable characters. Amos is a psychopath and James Holden is quite possibly the most sanctimonious prig in the known universe!

[Draco the Lizard]

On 22-5-2016 at 6:30 AM, brunhilda said:

As for those who asked about Rothfuss, he does neither character nor worldbuilding but something distinct: a tapestry of story that is tied together on many levels and the great fun of the series (which will probably never be finished) is to find the connections and analyze the hell out of what's really going on. There's a huge series of dissection posts on Tor's site.

 

 

I agree with you that Rothfuss's worldbuilding is... lacking. I still can't get over the Ademre. Maybe that's more culture-building than world-building, but either way, that section of the book made me laugh out loud a couple of times, at parts I don't think Rothfuss had intended as funny.

[Bjornbert]

I second Abraham and Lynch, but would like to add NK Jemisin's Dreamblood duology. The setting is somewhat limited, but what is there is really evocative and immersive. The setting for her new book looks absolutely awsome, but I'm yet to read that one

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, Draco the Lizard said:

I agree with you that Rothfuss's worldbuilding is... lacking. I still can't get over the Ademre. Maybe that's more culture-building than world-building, but either way, that section of the book made me laugh out loud a couple of times, at parts I don't think Rothfuss had intended as funny.

Yes, the Adem are embarrassing... I'd argue though that the concept of sympathy as a magic system is pretty awesome. As is the Cthaeh, which I will forever think of as the Evil Tree from the Mighty Boosh.

[Draco the Lizard]

That's one of the frustrating parts of the Kingkiller Chronicles. Every now and then you get something that seems cool, like the Chtaeh, and you hope there'll be more scenes with it or about it, but nope, let's go back to our sexfairy telling Kvothe how great in bed he is. Sigh.

[Darth Richard II]

6 hours ago, Bearbert said:

I second Abraham and Lynch, but would like to add NK Jemisin's Dreamblood duology. The setting is somewhat limited, but what is there is really evocative and immersive. The setting for her new book looks absolutely awsome, but I'm yet to read that one

Yeah the world building in The Fifth Season is pretty awesome. IT just ends on a giant cliffhanger and I want the next one noooooow.

[sologdin]

i enjoyed ginger gump goes to XXX faerieland and randy ninja town. that's as plausible as magic rings and twincest and inutterals and white gold lepers and so on.

anyway.  RSB, kids.  and i reiterate the vorrh.

[polishgenius]

The Vorrh reminds me really weirdly of Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor and I'm not quite sure why because they have nothing specific in common. Something about the storytelling in both suggests a fever-dream, I think.

[The Marquis de Leech]

9 hours ago, sologdin said:

i enjoyed ginger gump goes to XXX faerieland and randy ninja town. that's as plausible as magic rings and twincest and inutterals and white gold lepers and so on.

No-one's debating plausibility; the problem is that the whole thing is blatantly juvenile. It's not often that you suspect a writer is typing something one-handed - this is one of those occasions.

[Draco the Lizard]

14 hours ago, sologdin said:

i enjoyed ginger gump goes to XXX faerieland and randy ninja town. that's as plausible as magic rings and twincest and inutterals and white gold lepers and so on.

If you want smutty fantasy, there's plenty available (and often better than Rothfuss' vague attempts at being literary and using a Positions from the Kama Sutra generator).

I just don't expect 'oh wow, Adolescent Virgin Dude, you were so great at sexing me that I, experienced sex fairy, refuse to believe you are a virgin!' from a fantasy series that's supposedly groundbreaking and subverting all the tropes and gets lots of glowing praise from critics.

Like, I expect that from a teenage boy's first attempt at writing ASOIAF fanfic where their Gary Stu self insert character gets to bang Melisandre, or something.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah not sure what plausibility has to do with it. From a world building perspective "hew what if there was a town of hot horny naruto fangirls that didn't know where babies came from and all wanted me" doesn't seem to be great world building.

[themerchant]

On 30/04/2016 at 8:01 AM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Yes, but

1. Fantasy based off the faux Middle East is much rarer than faux Medieval Europe, so I'm willing to be more forgiving.
2. The actual beauty of Bakker's worldbuilding is the mindset of the people. Unlike Martin, where the likes of Tyrion Lannister or Jon Snow could adapt quite happily to the twenty-first century, Bakker's characters are dealing with something truly alien. No warmed-over Enlightenment liberalism here.

Yeah my personal opinion is it's great. Where the history non-men ends humans begins (somewhat). 2 worlds laid on top of each other.

I don't agree with Bakker on it being a "local feel" or trying to achieve it. Considering the home of some of the characters are really far away.