TrackerNeil Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 21 hours ago, Darth Richard II said: Yeah not sure what plausibility has to do with it. From a world building perspective "hew what if there was a town of hot horny naruto fangirls that didn't know where babies came from and all wanted me" doesn't seem to be great world building. I often find myself amazed that people can accept a world of dragons and sorcery and demons, but not one in which women are not second-class citizens. I think sometimes people who create fiction spend too much time on fine details like language and clothing styles and too little on the gigantic assumptions that undergird the world. For example, the "Star Trek" universe was filled with wonder tech and aliens and whatever, but gender roles were precisely the same as they were in 1987. Question the basics, folks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco the Lizard Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said: I often find myself amazed that people can accept a world of dragons and sorcery and demons, but not one in which women are not second-class citizens. I think sometimes people who create fiction spend too much time on fine details like language and clothing styles and too little on the gigantic assumptions that undergird the world. For example, the "Star Trek" universe was filled with wonder tech and aliens and whatever, but gender roles were precisely the same as they were in 1987. Question the basics, folks! I got the feeling Rothfuss thought the Ademre are great feminist world/culturebuilding because look, he made the fighting ninja culture a matriarchal society! And the reason they're a martriachy is because all women are naturally calmer and more sensible, while all men are aggressive! And they're really casual about sex and there's no slutshaming whatsoever! (and also somehow no STDs.) So yeah, all the outdated gender assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Yeah! And they dont need no men to make babies! Girl Poweh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Gender roles have been explored quite a bit in SF/fantasy (and sometimes seriously, not as teenage fanboy service). (Isn't the Earthsea society a matriarchy?) And recall that in almost any society where women still get pregnant and give birth, there are often going to be very different gender roles. It's not just a male conspiracy (quite apart from the fact that it is very hard to conspire against half of the populace). We had this many times before; pseudo-medieval fantasy generally has too many female badass warriors and assassins and not enough ruling queens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjornbert Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 30 May 2016 at 3:45 PM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: No-one's debating plausibility; the problem is that the whole thing is blatantly juvenile. It's not often that you suspect a writer is typing something one-handed - this is one of those occasions. I think it should be more about internal consistency than plausibility. If an author makes his own rules with the logical assumptions that come from the rules, then I see no problem with things not being plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco the Lizard Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Jo498 said: pseudo-medieval fantasy generally has too many female badass warriors and assassins and not enough ruling queens. Why not both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Jo498 said: We had this many times before; pseudo-medieval fantasy generally has too many female badass warriors and assassins and not enough ruling queens. Oh, totally. If I hear one more warrior-woman called a "strong female character", I swear I'm going to barf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 because female badass assassins is almost the crudest way to make women "powerful". It requires absolutely no world building. Very often these characters are "like men" only more sexy. They are in the punch of the face of "2nd wave feminism" that tried to make society more "female", not making women sexy and bitchy übermen. (tbh I am quite tired of male badass assassins as well...) Despite some crudity I liked Salvatore's Drow society with females far more powerful because only they can be priestesses of that evil deity. So Drow men are great fighters, but almost irrelevant because they lack the power drawn from evil magic that favors females Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 11 hours ago, Draco the Lizard said: I got the feeling Rothfuss thought the Ademre are great feminist world/culturebuilding because look, he made the fighting ninja culture a matriarchal society! And the reason they're a martriachy is because all women are naturally calmer and more sensible, while all men are aggressive! And they're really casual about sex and there's no slutshaming whatsoever! (and also somehow no STDs.) No homosexuality either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 14 hours ago, TrackerNeil said: I often find myself amazed that people can accept a world of dragons and sorcery and demons, but not one in which women are not second-class citizens. I think sometimes people who create fiction spend too much time on fine details like language and clothing styles and too little on the gigantic assumptions that undergird the world. For example, the "Star Trek" universe was filled with wonder tech and aliens and whatever, but gender roles were precisely the same as they were in 1987. Question the basics, folks! I had a lot of fun with this. My own invented world has firearms and universal access to necromancy (to the point where it is taught in schools like mathematics). The end result is a society that really, really doesn't care about gender (the head of the Secret Police is a woman), or sexuality - my protagonist is bisexual, and no-one thinks anything of it. It's also not a very nice place to live, as the existence of necromancy and a Secret Police should imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco the Lizard Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: No homosexuality either. Of course not. If there was homosexuality, Rothfuss might have to write lesbians and he can't have women around who aren't attracted to Kvothe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Draco the Lizard said: Of course not. If there was homosexuality, Rothfuss might have to write lesbians and he can't have women around who aren't attracted to Kvothe. He could have him "curing" lesbians like James Bond does according to my vague recollection in one of the novels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Jo498 said: because female badass assassins is almost the crudest way to make women "powerful". It requires absolutely no world building. Very often these characters are "like men" only more sexy. They are in the punch of the face of "2nd wave feminism" that tried to make society more "female", not making women sexy and bitchy übermen. (tbh I am quite tired of male badass assassins as well...) Honestly, I could do without any badasses in my fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 10 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: I had a lot of fun with this. My own invented world has firearms and universal access to necromancy (to the point where it is taught in schools like mathematics). The end result is a society that really, really doesn't care about gender (the head of the Secret Police is a woman), or sexuality - my protagonist is bisexual, and no-one thinks anything of it. It's also not a very nice place to live, as the existence of necromancy and a Secret Police should imply. edit: going to market in the not too distant future, sharing all that might be counter productive. Disregard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 6 hours ago, Jo498 said: He could have him "curing" lesbians like James Bond does according to my vague recollection in one of the novels... Pussy Galore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
End of Disc One Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 5 hours ago, TrackerNeil said: Honestly, I could do without any badasses in my fantasy. Opinions are a crazy thing. I live for badasses in my fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 54 minutes ago, End of Disc One said: Opinions are a crazy thing. I live for badasses in my fantasy. I think it might be useful to define the term. I don't mind characters like, say, Syrio Forel, who are formidable and fun. What I dislike are those power-fantasy folks like, say, Legolas from the LOTR films or Drizzt Do'Urden, who do these absurd and cartoonish feats of martial skill. I imagine the storytellers think I'll be all, "Wow!", but instead I just roll my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Hey man, Drizzt had to kill a lot of level 1 kobolds to earn the xp for some of those skills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 On 6/1/2016 at 4:31 PM, Darth Richard II said: Hey man, Drizzt had to kill a lot of level 1 kobolds to earn the xp for some of those skills! Yeah, but after the 100th kobold the GM said they were worth only .5 XP each.Then Drizzt graduated to stirges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars447 Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 On May 31, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Jo498 said: We had this many times before; pseudo-medieval fantasy generally has too many female badass warriors and assassins and not enough ruling queens. I really couldn't disagree more. Actually maybe it's just what I've read recently but I've seen more ruling queens (Mara, Skara, Adare) than badass warriors (who are actually badass, and not "badass for a girl, but don't worry the male protagonist is even more badass so fear not for your masculinity".) Actually, I've seen way too many damn princesses in Fantasy. You can be a dude and a farmboy and still be a protagonist, but if you're a woman you better have been born in the right family. The Ademre suck not because they are a society of badasses, but because they are male nerd wish fulfillment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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