Captain America 3 - Discussion and reviews (SPOILERS in tags until May 14th!)

[DaveSumm]

On 28 April 2016 at 10:34 PM, denstorebog said:

Wanda is once again left to do a bunch of insane hand-wringing as her main contribution, and Vision gets only a few lines at all which add absolutely nothing to our understanding of him. Think about this for a moment. Wanda and Vision are currently supposed to be actual members of the Avengers squad, but they're completely left by the roadside in this one. I can honestly say that I don't care a rat's ass for either of these two, and I think most people will agree. That's pretty terrifying for the Avengers franchise going forward.

I honestly can't begin to fathom how you came to this conclusion. As a pairing they probably get one of the most prominent sub-arc's in the movie.

Spoiler

Wanda accidentally murders a bunch of innocent people. She's racked with guilt over this, and Vision attempts to comfort her. He's obviously developing feelings for her, then gets the additional conflicting task of preventing her from leaving HQ. Wanda's not even sure she wants to leave and join team Cap, but she's not comfortable with the situation and is forced to bury Vision several miles underground, and is visibly upset by this. Vision then has the ugly task of facing her in a fight, and afterward goes over to her to check if she's alright. He neglects his duties as a result, and aims a lazy shot at Falcon which ends up paralysing War Machine. He is shocked that he could do such a thing, and is struggling to deal with the concept that he could be distracted by a person. We're left with a shot of him looking pensive as he mulls over this growing infatuation he has for her.

In a movie that has no obligation to be 'about' either of these characters, you don't think this is a sufficient arc for them? I'd say we learn more about Vision in this movie than we did in Age of Ultron, by quite a margin.

[Pliskin]

I'm sorry to be mean, but the "and I think most people will agree" line really had me laughing, giving that almost everyone in the thread disagreed afterwards.

[ants]

7 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I honestly can't begin to fathom how you came to this conclusion. As a pairing they probably get one of the most prominent sub-arc's in the movie.

  Hide contents

Wanda accidentally murders a bunch of innocent people. She's racked with guilt over this, and Vision attempts to comfort her. He's obviously developing feelings for her, then gets the additional conflicting task of preventing her from leaving HQ. Wanda's not even sure she wants to leave and join team Cap, but she's not comfortable with the situation and is forced to bury Vision several miles underground, and is visibly upset by this. Vision then has the ugly task of facing her in a fight, and afterward goes over to her to check if she's alright. He neglects his duties as a result, and aims a lazy shot at Falcon which ends up paralysing War Machine. He is shocked that he could do such a thing, and is struggling to deal with the concept that he could be distracted by a person. We're left with a shot of him looking pensive as he mulls over this growing infatuation he has for her.

In a movie that has no obligation to be 'about' either of these characters, you don't think this is a sufficient arc for them? I'd say we learn more about Vision in this movie than we did in Age of Ultron, by quite a margin.

Yep. I thought for the amount of time they had, they did a really good job. You actually learned a bit about Wanda, Vision, Spidey, the villain, Bucky and Black Panther, as well as a heap about Cap and Stark. Probably only Antman and the two main sidekicks were not developed more. For the run time it was very good.

[denstorebog]

Going to see it again on Tuesday. Strangely looking forward to seeing what a difference a second-time afternoon screening will make. It's not often you suddenly find yourself in the minority of opinion about a movie franchise you're used to defending the weak parts of

[sifth]

The Airport scene in this film was amazing and was much better than anything BvS gave us, IMO

 

I also loved the new Spiderman. This kid was perfectly casted and I love how they're setting up Tony Stark to be his mentor.

[dooog]

Not a big superhero fan but it was decent, a good movie to watch hungover. Probably not as good or "tight" as Winter Soldier since it had an absolutely massive cast, and it felt as though it may have been better had they had fewer heroes. A big improvement on that bland Avengers 2

Would give it a 7.5/10

[williamjm]

I liked it a lot, and would say it is one of the better MCU films, although I think I'd probably say Winter Soldier is better.

I think they did a good, but not perfect, job of setting up the clash of ideas, and I think it handled that better than Winter Soldier by not turning one side into Nazis. I think in a way both Tony and Cap are right, but about different aspects of the story. I think it's hard to really argue against the general principle that the superheroes can't be a law unto themselves and have to submit to some kind of authority, and in theory the UN sounds like a better idea than a shadowy government agency like SHIELD. We don't really hear much about the details of the Sokovia Accords (the characters barely seem interested in it, which is probably a good thing since they've apparently just got one copy to share between them), so it's difficult to really judge how unreasonable some of its provisions might be. I think Cap has valid reasons to be sceptical of some of the people involved and their fondness for a shoot-first policy against Bucky, especially given his bad experience with authority figures in Winter Soldier, but it's still difficult to defend his stance against the allegation that it's a form of vigilantism. What he's most right about is the details of the case involving Bucky, and I think that gives them both valid reasons for picking the various sides.

I think they mostly handled the large cast well. I don't think it's actually necessary to give every character a detailed story arc of their own, I think it's OK for some of them to be supporting characters and we don't necessarily have to have all their motivations spelled out in detail. It might have been nice to get more scenes with Vision or Wanda, but there have to be some compromises with running time. I think they mostly explained why the characters took the stances they did, but there are some exceptions - I enjoyed Ant Man's involvement in the film, but he's not really got a good reason for being there. It also seemed irresponsible even by Tony's standard to recruit what seems to be a high school student to fight on his side.

As they did in Winter Soldier I thought the Russos did a good job of making their action scenes feel more grounded than the CGI robot fests of some of the other Marvel movies. The airport scene was a lot of fun, even if I suspect it might start to fall apart a bit if you really analysed what was going on.

For the new characters, I really liked Black Panther and I think the actor should be able to handle taking the lead role without a problem. The latest incarnation of Spiderman was fun, although he might risk getting annoying if there was a whole movie about him.

 

[DaveSumm]

We don't really know the details of the accords as you say, but one thing that bugged me:

Spoiler

All of Cap's misgivings were based around the possibility of authority figures motivations morphing or corrupting. So why not sign one that says if the Avengers want to do something outside the US (or maybe in it as well) they need UN sanctioning, but if the UN asks them to do something, they can tell them where to go? Surely everyone would be happy with that? It'd be a hard sell from Cap that he should have free international reign to do as he pleases, and also a hard sell from Tony that he'd honestly do exactly as the UN told him. Maybe a clause where individual countries can say 'screw the accords, we need you'.

It could be we'll (*gasp*)......learn more from Agents of SHIELD when (spoilers for the synopsis of the episode following the US release)

Spoiler

The Inhumans on the team are forced to register. I can't picture them waiting on UN approval every time they blink, so they'll have to get around it somehow. It's a pretty international show.

Thinking about the ending, it's actually a real shame there can't be a sequel that explores how an official Avengers and an underground one would work. It'd be cool to see Tony and Steve secretly working together with an official and non-official prong to their strategy, depending on what was needed. I can't imagine Thanos will give them enough time to explore this, and I can't imagine the Avengers setup won't be wildy different by the end of part II. At this point I've stopped caring what the films are called, it'd be cool if they could just have one off stories that weren't necessarily Cap or Iron Man or Avengers. The comic Civil War was just that wasn't it, not a title belonging to any one series?

 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

It was fantastic. It took much of what made Winter Soldier a great movie and it pushed further forward with it, without most of the downsides of that movie, such as a sudden twist about evil nazi's and creating a big bad that needed fighting. Instead Civil War is the sort of movie that manages to combine reasonable political debate, real world issues where there really isn't any sort of black and white.. with the sort of eye popping action and spectacle that would make a teenage me jump out of my seat with excitement.

Its weird, within 10 minutes of the opening of this movie I was smiling with absolute glee at some of the action. The fights are up there with the very best action movies around, maybe even superior. The way every punch has an impact, the speed of camera which doesn't use its blurriness to just hide poor choreography but to enhance the visiral nature of the action. That I can see superhumans going at it and knocking ten shades of s**t out of each other but at no point does it get silly or do I get reminded its just a movie. Compare it to Superman vs Batman where nothing feels real, you know its in a computer and the protagonists have so much power that nothing really is at stake. Like Winter Soldier this is basically Bourne on steroids and boy is it fun to watch.

And I just liked that the movie almost never made any stupid brain farts to make events happen, everything felt organic and the culmination of the preceding movies. I disagree with earlier comments that it wasn't clear why each character joined the side they chose. In fact it was quite the opposite, everyones relationship and sense of responsibility was very well drawn up. You could see who was siding with the Accord mainly due to their sense of guilt or duty, or who sided with Cap because they had a mistrust of authority (something that has been building up in all the previous movies)

The only one that was possibly a bit odd was Scarlet Witch, who switched sides a little too readily. But even then by the time the airport battle was happening you could see that the way they set it up meant that it wasn't quite the fight that was advertised. Instead of heroes beating each other cos it would look cool, they are often pulling their punches, fighting because in some ways they have to, trying to minimise damage, or sometimes not, depending on which character we are talking about. 

The comparison to Age of Ultron is a bit painful, because it makes me feel quite sorry for Whedon. I know he had a hard time on that movie, but this makes it look like a bit of a mess, more so. (less said about how I now view BvS the better) I highly doubted that you could do another movie where they bring all these heroes together and make it work as an ensemble. I know Avengers 1 gets high ratings but I find it quite clunky and patchy at best. I was really worried at earlier reviews on this thread because Winter Soldier is definitly my favourite Marvel movie and I wanted this to reach that level, when I found out they were going the Civil War approach my heart sunk.

But they have managed to pull it off. It even had a storyline that was reasonably compelling, without ever having a big bad to fight at the end (thank god). That the big fight at the end wasn't with an enemy but between Tony and Rogers made it even more powerful. 

So overall I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm struggling to think of anything I really disliked. 

... oh and Spiderman!! Wow, that was awesome. Makes me realise how rubbish previous Spidermen were (although I like most of those movies), but that they made a Spiderman who is basically a teenage kid, he wacky, ADD, deferential to his idols and elders, unsure of himself and often makes mistakes, but is still enthusiastic. So glad Marvel has control of him again.

[polishgenius]

I thought it was ossum. I'm completely on the side of those that considering how many characters it was juggling, it actually did a really good job of giving nearly all of them something relevant to do and a fair motivation.

I also liked that the villain's motivation was basically the same as T'Challa and, at the end, Tony. Sure, he went much more evil to do it, but he was relatable. Best Marvel villain since Loki. First good Marvel villain since Loki.

[The BlackBear]

I liked it. I was worried about a let down like Ultron (that I still do quite like, but can see it's flaws.) There was a kid right next to me (maybe 8 or 9) and was a bit of a pain, but didn't annoy me as much as I normally would have expected, I take this as a point in the films favour.

Not really much to say (I often take a little while to get all my thoughts in order,) but three things:
 

Spoiler

 

Zemo, from all the reviews he was brought up as a problem, especially one Collider did. Couldn't disagree more, he had a nice plan, and literally mentioned how he knew he couldn't kill them himself. Not being the root of the fight he didn't need a big finish (though nice for him to survive,) but he was key in making Cap feel that he needs to get across that airport, sets T'Challa on his remarkably indefatigable hunt, and at the end believably pushed Tony over the edge.

I don't really want to compare it to BvS, but feel I have to. Especially given the mother father death flashback stuff going on with Tony. I loved that he did just totally lose it, he is a hero, but has flaws and those flaws came to the surface here. You really got why he was attacking Cap and Bucky, it was visceral and raw in a way Superman vs Bats wasn't. He didn't have much time but It was all nice, his sadness shone through, especially him listening to the answering machine of his wife, a cliché sure, but one that does still get me.

Didn't love Spider-Man, this is partly maybe just me and my issues going in as I've never really loved Spidey. I at this moment prefer Garfield. But I live in hope, I don't like Cap in the comics, and didn't warm too much to him in C1 and A1, but WS really turned things around, I have faith that with more focus Spidey can get there too.

Other little things: BP was brilliant. GIANT MAN! Actually Ant Man just as a whole fitted in far better than I expected. Thunderbolt Ross was good at having a good point but being pretty unlikeable about it. Shame Crossbones is gone. Wasn't sure how to feel about the inevitable Carter kiss, liked it. Also the text message was vague but we all immediately knew what it meant. Bucky getting frozen was a bit of a stretch. Why was Zemo in the WS's cage? He's just a regular dude. Sebastian Stan's chest is much bigger than I remember, and Cap's arms with that Hellicopter? Sploosh. Falcon and WS had great back and forth. The violence was good, like WS (but not quite as good as) there was weight behind the punches.

 

 

[williamjm]

3 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

And I just liked that the movie almost never made any stupid brain farts to make events happen, everything felt organic and the culmination of the preceding movies. I disagree with earlier comments that it wasn't clear why each character joined the side they chose. In fact it was quite the opposite, everyones relationship and sense of responsibility was very well drawn up. You could see who was siding with the Accord mainly due to their sense of guilt or duty, or who sided with Cap because they had a mistrust of authority (something that has been building up in all the previous movies)

The only one that was possibly a bit odd was Scarlet Witch, who switched sides a little too readily.

Thinking about it a bit more, who the leaders of each team are and how they've interacted with the other characters in the past has a big impact on the way the sides end up. Everybody likes and trusts Cap, but most of them have at least mixed feelings about Tony. I suspect if Cap had agreed to the accords then everyone else would have fallen into line behind him, he's the only one of the Avengers who is really a leader, Tony is a terrible choice to try to persuade the others to follow the lead.

The only person he really seems to persuade (or even spends time trying to persuade) is Spiderman and even then he doesn't spend any time talking about his cause. He makes it easy for Wanda to switch sides, I think she might be sympathetic to his point of view but he apparently doesn't even trust her to make up her own mind and doesn't even have the decency to explain that himself, instead leaving it to Vision. If he'd played his hand a bit better then I think he could have kept her on his side, and possibly Hawkeye too, since his initial motivation for breaking Wanda out seems to be based primarily on feeling he owes her for Quicksilver saving his life.

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

On 4/28/2016 at 2:34 PM, denstorebog said:

1. 
    I honestly challenge you, after you exit the cinema, to tell me why Wanda, Vision, Falcon, War Machine and Black Widow chose the specific teams they did.

 

I would think Falcon, War Machine and Black Widow choice would basically be set in stone before it even started. It would take some pretty irrational behavior from their respective leaders for them to flip, doncha think? 

[DaveSumm]

I considered writing a break down of each character and why they chose each team, but they're all present for the scene at HQ. They all have lines, they all explain it themselves. The three who aren't are Black Panther (I don't think anyone's claiming he doesn't have a damn good reason), Spider-Man and Ant-Man. Remember how Ant-Man ended; Falcon intimated that he might audition him for the Avengers ....... and here's the call. Yea, me, Cap, half the team, we need your help! Gotta protect a guy they're trying to kill! Stark's in charge of the other side, the guy your mentor keeps saying is an asshole. He'd jump at the chance. And Spider-Man's just a kid, doing what the guy who just gave him a truck load of money tells him. I'll spoiler tag this as I guess it's a minor spoiler, but the kicker for me is...

Spoiler

...the trailers make out like they believe in this cause enough to fight for it, which isn't really the case. The stakes at the airport are simply that Ross has ordered them to bring in Bucky or he's gonna send in soldiers, which they think (probably correctly) will be worse. And Cap is protecting him. They never actually fight over the accords specifically. Add to this the general air of joviality, that none of them intend to injure the others.....to say Spider-Man doesn't actually care about the cause sounds like a cop out, but it's in keeping with his character and the general tone of that scene. So I don't really feel Spider-Man needs anymore of an explanation.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

22 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I considered writing a break down of each character and why they chose each team, but they're all present for the scene at HQ. They all have lines, they all explain it themselves. The three who aren't are Black Panther (I don't think anyone's claiming he doesn't have a damn good reason), Spider-Man and Ant-Man. Remember how Ant-Man ended; Falcon intimated that he might audition him for the Avengers ....... and here's the call. Yea, me, Cap, half the team, we need your help! Gotta protect a guy they're trying to kill! Stark's in charge of the other side, the guy your mentor keeps saying is an asshole. He'd jump at the chance. And Spider-Man's just a kid, doing what the guy who just gave him a truck load of money tells him. I'll spoiler tag this as I guess it's a minor spoiler, but the kicker for me is...

  Hide contents

...the trailers make out like they believe in this cause enough to fight for it, which isn't really the case. The stakes at the airport are simply that Ross has ordered them to bring in Bucky or he's gonna send in soldiers, which they think (probably correctly) will be worse. And Cap is protecting him. They never actually fight over the accords specifically. Add to this the general air of joviality, that none of them intend to injure the others.....to say Spider-Man doesn't actually care about the cause sounds like a cop out, but it's in keeping with his character and the general tone of that scene. So I don't really feel Spider-Man needs anymore of an explanation.

 

That all pretty much makes sense. Seems like the story kind of makes Wanda's choice for her as well.

If she's horrified for being responsible for the death of civilians, whose side do you think she's going to choose?

[RumHam]

That was great. I was surprised how funny it was. 

"Bird costume?!" 

[ants]

One thing I really liked was nobody was totally right or wrong.

 

Spoiler

 

Take Tony’s position. There is something fundamentally right with the view that a task force like this has to act within the law. His creation of Ultron, Wanda & her brother’s alliance, all helped lead to many deaths. Oversight is fundamentally democratic. And what would have happened if Cap had toed the line? Well, they probably bring in the winter warrior with less property damage and damage to the cops. One airport wouldn’t have been trashed. Things would still have gone skewwhiff with Zemo in interrogation, but if Cap had brought him back in then after they learned about the frame up the team would have been united again. After all, what did Cap actually achieve? His fears about the super-villain death squad were wrong, and he ended up putting Bucky on ice anyway.

 

And of course – Tony has an argument that Bucky DID kill his parents. Does Bucky have any responsibility for that? Another grey area. And Bucky is a danger, as shown by Zemo’s scene with him in the cells – hell, it’s why Bucky is put on ice.

 

As for the Captain, well we’ve seen with TWS what can go wrong with central authority. And not just Hydra – Fury was planning on having those ships up their assassinating bad guys as well, and that was a multi-country organisation who had that plan. Cap is fundamentally right that Bucky was innocent, and being framed. We can all sympathise with a view about the control of authority where it is likely that it’s leading to registration and a restriction of rights. His comment about Bucky not getting a lawyer was spot on. But he IS acting as a vigilante. He didn’t really achieve much with his actions. And he did leave the shield at the end.

 

I liked that they kept it grey. This applied even to the characters. Black Widow obviously was conflicted and didn’t really choose a side. Wanda probably could have gone either way if Tony hadn’t been too busy to actually call her and ask her to stay inside, instead of ordering Vision to force her to (plus her recognition of what a scared democracy might do). Spidey was really just there because one side talked to him first. When Tony went into the prison and then to Siberia he was planning on helping Cap. And BP switched sides as well.

 

Nobody really had a good answer to what is a fundamental issue when superheroes and super villains live amongst us.

 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, ants said:

One thing I really liked was nobody was totally right or wrong.

 

  Hide contents

 

Take Tony’s position. There is something fundamentally right with the view that a task force like this has to act within the law. His creation of Ultron, Wanda & her brother’s alliance, all helped lead to many deaths. Oversight is fundamentally democratic. And what would have happened if Cap had toed the line? Well, they probably bring in the winter warrior with less property damage and damage to the cops. One airport wouldn’t have been trashed. Things would still have gone skewwhiff with Zemo in interrogation, but if Cap had brought him back in then after they learned about the frame up the team would have been united again. After all, what did Cap actually achieve? His fears about the super-villain death squad were wrong, and he ended up putting Bucky on ice anyway.

 

And of course – Tony has an argument that Bucky DID kill his parents. Does Bucky have any responsibility for that? Another grey area. And Bucky is a danger, as shown by Zemo’s scene with him in the cells – hell, it’s why Bucky is put on ice.

 

As for the Captain, well we’ve seen with TWS what can go wrong with central authority. And not just Hydra – Fury was planning on having those ships up their assassinating bad guys as well, and that was a multi-country organisation who had that plan. Cap is fundamentally right that Bucky was innocent, and being framed. We can all sympathise with a view about the control of authority where it is likely that it’s leading to registration and a restriction of rights. His comment about Bucky not getting a lawyer was spot on. But he IS acting as a vigilante. He didn’t really achieve much with his actions. And he did leave the shield at the end.

 

I liked that they kept it grey. This applied even to the characters. Black Widow obviously was conflicted and didn’t really choose a side. Wanda probably could have gone either way if Tony hadn’t been too busy to actually call her and ask her to stay inside, instead of ordering Vision to force her to (plus her recognition of what a scared democracy might do). Spidey was really just there because one side talked to him first. When Tony went into the prison and then to Siberia he was planning on helping Cap. And BP switched sides as well.

 

Nobody really had a good answer to what is a fundamental issue when superheroes and super villains live amongst us.

 

 

I think thats one of the reasons its such a good movie, because actually its not trying to answer any of those questions or sit on any one side of the fence. It realises that something like centralised control / democracy is a very complicated issue and often in life every solution has upsides and downsides. Most movies tend to just sit there and preach to you about the benefits of one way of thinking, moralising about how systems should work or how everyone should act. Civil War doesn't try to do that, its really hard to watch that movie and say one way or another who made the right decision. 
 

[red snow]

Finally saw it. Never been at a sold out screening with queues for seats on a tuesday before.

This should have been what Avengers 2 could have - all the characters getting moments to shine and kicking ass. It also makes a mockery out of the ridiculous amount of time the avengers spent in AoU trying to save lives when they were collapsing (empty) skyscrapers onto busy streets. In this respect it's the opposite of BvS as it builds off the loss of life that wasn't seen in AoU. I much prefer Civil War's take on superheroics though.

The film is let down somewhat by the plot. The moustache-twirling scheme of the villain would seem stupid on a 60s cartoon and is unacceptable in a modern film

even more of a let down as I really enjoyed Zemo's motivation as a villain

. The other problem which is essential to making the plot hold together is that Stark and Steve have to take turns (sometimes pull double duty) of being stubborn and idiotic. Much like BvS most of the big fights could be avoided by simply having a discussion. In BvS they simply didn't bother talking. In Civil War they talk a lot but never about the obvious things to prevent a fight and if they do Steve/Stark decide to be douches and ignore it. The only benefit from this silliness is that it highlights how dangerous superheroes are in this world when their personality (or plot) flaws come into play.

Before I get into spoilers I'll just say the MCU (and superhero films) needed this boost. I'm a lot more confident in the Russo's taking on Infinite wars - actually I'm relieved. They also hands down do the best superhero choreography, somehow making it feel "real" and making everyone (even Falcon) look cool.

Really looking forward to Black Panther as I felt he was a really interesting take on superheros

they really emphasised he's a warrior not a hero. I'd like him to meet Thor. Also his arc made a lot of sense and final moments raised him far above Stark and Steve in terms of being mature, level headed and noble

. It was nice to see a genuinley young Spidey but his scenes really did feel like bous material and his introduction really felt stuck on. They also need to sort out his suit CGI as I never felt there was an actor present at all when he had the suit on. In the line up scene he felt like negative space.

Ok onto spoilery things I thought were cool

Pretty much all the fights. Falcon was awesome in it - more impressive because he's a guy with metal wings (X-men Apocalypse needs to raise its game) but so was everyone else. Vision and Scarlet Witch's powers were used much more effectively. Ant Man was shown how dangerous he could be and I loved getting the surprise of him being Giant Man for a few minutes. Cap and Winter Soldier's tactile strenght continued what was iniated in Cap2 as my favourite display of superhuman strength/fighting. Black Panther was cool and dangerous throughout.

The scene with Cap, WS and Black Panther running faster than cars in the tunnel was a real joy.

I didn't like them running at each other in a playground line-up at the airport but the rest of that scene was great. Althought the crippling of War Machine just made everyone look like children (maybe that's why they had them running at each other) and Falcon and the Vision need to take a hard look at their actions.

Speaking of the Vision I felt he was really well used depsite hearing complaints to the contrary. I got a much better handle on his character and powers in this film and really liked the unnerving aspect of him. Like some kind of god-like creature that doesn't quite operate by our rules.

I was also surprised at how good Hawkeye is. He really felt like the father-figure of the Avengers in this one and that's possibly true. He's the only one who is grounded with a real life and that seems to allow him to cut through all the bullshit testosterone. Discovering he had a family was probably one of the best legacies of AoU.

To finish on a negative. Why was Stark so intent on killing the Winter Soldier? It was so abundantly clear to everyone that he had no control over his actions. It would have been like Stark killing the Hulk and Hawkeye for their murders under the control of Loki/Scarlet Witch (actually he'd have more legitimate beef with SW for when she made Hulk mad). The villain even said he'd set it up to tear them apart. So why try and kill WS for this when he was in Bucky mode? I get it's personal but it still makes him come across as petty and, when he appears to be willing to kill Steve for getting in the way, downright nasty. Fortunately Stark's poor behaviour at least allows Steve to come off good at the end of his own film. Ultimately Steve was right - even if wanting an independent black ops Avengers squad still seems dubious because he was right in protecting his friend who was as much a victim as everyone else.

[red snow]

On 02/05/2016 at 1:40 AM, williamjm said:

It also seemed irresponsible even by Tony's standard to recruit what seems to be a high school student to fight on his side.

 

For the new characters, I really liked Black Panther and I think the actor should be able to handle taking the lead role without a problem. The latest incarnation of Spiderman was fun, although he might risk getting annoying if there was a whole movie about him.

 

Especially considering Stark had Spidey go after Winter Soldier - the person IM wants to bring in because he beleives him a cold blooded killer. It also left a bitter taste in my mouth how he "fired" Spidey - that seemed really cruel even if the subtext was that Tony had realised it was a mistake to involve a kid.  It just hit me when Peter was all "but Mr Stark" - like someone who's hero has just told them they are a disappointment.

It makes you wonder if Stark would have been better contacting that super strong black guy or woman who wanders around Hell's kitchen? Even Daredevil would seem a less dubious choice but as it is (Stark doesn't know they MCU doesn't want to acknowledge TV shows) he seems to go solely for power.

I really hope that this film covered his origin and that his actual film is about post Civil War events. Sadly I doubt this is going to be entirely the case and we'll still get a 30 minute origin story. I also agree he could get annoying but hopfully he wont be as keen when not around the Avengers.